Why does the paladin defensive skills have such a high cooldown?

Had all 3 tank to 60 prior to SB, decided to level up WAR first to 70 and now im doing PLD and im kind of baffled, most of their job defensive skills have an extra minute or higher timer on them.

Vengeance -> 120sec 30% dmg reduction
Sentinel -> 180sec 40% dmg reduction


Raw Intuition -> 90sec Parry all attack from the front (for better effect you need awareness)
Bulwark -> 180sec Increase block rate by 60%

As im leveling PLD in dungeons, im like...why the hell does it take so long for my damn skills to come back compared to war? So i decided to check the main ones that i pointed above and it felt 'weird' ? I dunno how to say it...on one note, Vengeance and sentinel both do the same thing, but sentinel has an extra minute.


Raw intuition is better than bulwark in every form and does a better job since you just need to combo it with awareness and bye bye worries and has half the cooldown. Now for bulwark, it only increases block rate by 60%, you could add in anticipation but that only applies to parry. I know that paladin can block magic with SB update, but that doesn't change my view.

Whats up with that :l? Doesn't that mean that warrior has better mitigation in the long run?

Don't say anything negative about PLD...or they are gonna get you...

Vengeance got buffed to 40% reduction? They should reduce the cooldown on sentinel then.

I dunno why Paladins cooldowns are longer. Maybe the ability to block or parry an attack (as opposed to only parry) is what balances things out?

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Originally Posted by Ragology

Vengeance got buffed to 40% reduction? They should reduce the cooldown on sentinel then.

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http://xivdb.com/action/44/vengeance

Still 30.

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Originally Posted by Ragology

Vengeance got buffed to 40% reduction? They should reduce the cooldown on sentinel then.

I dunno why Paladins cooldowns are longer. Maybe the ability to block or parry an attack (as opposed to only parry) is what balances things out?

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My bad on that, i thought i wrote 30% but i figure i got confused in copy/pasting the info for the limit.

Bulwark is garbage. It conflicts with shelltron so it looses effectiveness there and with Passage of Arms, you get 100% block rate, on a CD that's shorter. Sentinal's 40% damage reduction isn't needed. It should be a 30% reduction on a 2 min cd.

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Originally Posted by RubenSnizzle

Why does the paladin defensive skills have such a high cooldown?

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2.0 meta. Consider Tempered Will's 3min recast as well.

APM has gone up since then, but PLD is the oldest design.

Vengeance is actually 30% damage reduction. I feel like either Sentinel's duration should be improved, or bulwark's cooldown reduced since it's a lesser mitigation tool.

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Originally Posted by Conando

Vengeance is actually 30% damage reduction. I feel like either Sentinel's duration should be improved, or bulwark's cooldown reduced since it's a lesser mitigation tool.

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I would rather visit why Shadow Wall is 30% and at 3mins CD, the skill is worse than Sentinel while Vengeance pretty much trumps Shadow Wall with less CD and more effect. At least Sentinel has its niche for being highest mitigation skill except for Hallowed Ground and PLD already has Sheltron which is ridiculously strong in most fights because it now reduces magic attacks and tank busters, it makes less sense why Sentinel needs to be buffed when Shadow Wall falls short compared to the other 2 skills. Bulwark prolly need less CD, but it's a pretty reliable blocking tool, remember that block can reduce magic dmg now.

I'm not very good at math so I was wondering if cooldowns used by PLD/DRk were stronger than WAR because they get combined with the 20% tank stance bonus?

WARs tank stance only counts when the health is above the 100% mark. After that, A WAR in Defiance that casts Rampart will get the same reduction as a WAR in deliverance that casts Rampart. I think?

Because not all things need to be the same for things to be 'equal'.

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Originally Posted by Ragology

I'm not very good at math so I was wondering if cooldowns used by PLD/DRk were stronger than WAR because they get combined with the 20% tank stance bonus?

WARs tank stance only counts when the health is above the 100% mark. After that, A WAR in Defiance that casts Rampart will get the same reduction as a WAR in deliverance that casts Rampart. I think?

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Cooldowns lose their effectiveness as you stack them. Cooldowns are multiplicative. That's why you don't want normally to use Rampart and Vengeance together. Although it can be helpful on trash.

You're looking at it the wrong way. Warrior's tank stance gives more HP and a healing bonus. Assuming a Scholar isn't healing the Warrior, Warrior has the same effective HP as Dark Knight or Paladin. In that sense, Rampart is probably slightly stronger on a Warrior, since Rampart doesn't stack multiplicatively with the stance like the others.

Because PLD has access to all its CD's in any stance. It also has access to a powerful self heal at any time in any stance.

WAR only has better mitigation if they do nothing but spam inner beast. The shorter cooldowns and often powerful mitigation skills are to make up for WAR being unable to access its best one (inner beast) in one stance and to complement a class that doesn't have an inherent damage reduction in its tank stance. It also complements a class that is lore wise, expected to jump head first into every single situation.

People often argue that WAR has the best mitigation but this is kind of complicated, especially right now.

As I said before, if WAR did nothing but spam IB and combine it with its other CD's then arguably it is either equal or maybe better then the others. However keep in mind a few things.

1. We don't have good self healing anymore. Bloodbath is gone and IB and SP both have reduced self healing at higher levels (hence the change in the description of the abilities) and IB is only available in one stance.

2. I have no idea why people say equilibrium is better then clemency. Not only can it be boosted and give you 27k heals but you can heal others or relieve pressure from healers to focus on others or to dps more. If you lose dps from using clemency it is gained back from your party. It

3. PLD has around 9 CD's. 8 of them are good. And a handful provide team utility.

4. All of WAR's skills are selfish in nature, in HW this was fine because by using bloodbath and SP/IB they had great self sustain which as stated above relieves pressure from healers to do other things and allowed you to do more dps as well. You had the damage debuff which also contributed to damage reduction, and you could swap stances on the fly to adjust to situations. IB is a selfish skill but it's very nature of reducing damage and healing you helped you and your team. Same applies to it's CD's that only affected WAR but benefited the team in other ways. DRK and PLD however, had skills and moves that directly were made to help the team out. This worked for WAR in 3.X but in 4.0 where WAR has literally zero team utility it's different.

5. So to conclude, if WAR wants to MT and do nothing but IB you suffer severe dps losses in comparison to PLD (Don't know about DRK) even if your mitigation is "amazing". The lesser self healing also hurts. As does no team utility. So in a nutshell, you what get from having higher CD times in general is a class that can do any stance and use any skill it wants. That is the trade off. You gain incredible team utility and similar mitigation overall while retaining all your skills in any stance. WAR gains its utility by switching stances and using specific moves that benefit it first and the team second. WAR and PLD are two different playstyles that want to go to the same destination but take different ways to get there. So basically, don't fret. Your class is the way it is for a reason and you should be very happy that SE made PLD so amazing, they deserved it after HW.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

I would rather visit why Shadow Wall is 30% and at 3mins CD, the skill is worse than Sentinel while Vengeance pretty much trumps Shadow Wall with less CD and more effect. At least Sentinel has its niche for being highest mitigation skill except for Hallowed Ground and PLD already has Sheltron which is ridiculously strong in most fights because it now reduces magic attacks and tank busters, it makes less sense why Sentinel needs to be buffed when Shadow Wall falls short compared to the other 2 skills. Bulwark prolly need less CD, but it's a pretty reliable blocking tool, remember that block can reduce magic dmg now.

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Oh no doubt Shadow Wall needs to get looked at. It should, at the very least, have the same cooldown as Vengeance. It's one of the major reasons that DRK's mitigation is so bad right now.

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Originally Posted by Conando

Oh no doubt Shadow Wall needs to get looked at. It should, at the very least, have the same cooldown as Vengeance. It's one of the major reasons that DRK's mitigation is so bad right now.

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It's so stupid they removed shadowskin. Like with the animations they removed from WAR, SS had an awesome theme matching animation and we literally get the same skill but with the lame as hell animation rampart has.

Because letting them slot SS, Rampart, and shadow wall is to much mitigation even though it's basically what WAR and PLD have. Never mind that PLD learns DRK's level 70 skill at like level 55 or something.

And Shadow Wall still only has 10 seconds? What a joke.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

Cooldowns lose their effectiveness as you stack them. Cooldowns are multiplicative. That's why you don't want normally to use Rampart and Vengeance together. Although it can be helpful on trash.

You're looking at it the wrong way. Warrior's tank stance gives more HP and a healing bonus. Assuming a Scholar isn't healing the Warrior, Warrior has the same effective HP as Dark Knight or Paladin.

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Yeah, Warrior basically has a built in convalesence to go with the bloated hp instead of passive damage reduction. It also benefits AST's Nocturnal Aspected Benefic if I'm not mistaken. Divine Benison gets a benefit too due to the inflated HP, but it's not as easily spammable.

why we have such long cd? because we have the highest dmg, highest defense and highest utility... lol jokes aside paladin CD has always been like this since 2.0 and they have been working perfectly since 2.0 just get use to it if you jumped on the pally bandwagon just know that you need to know when and how to use them to get every ounce you can get, now paladins gets shelton which is an amazing ability and is your main mechanic if you are MT make sure to have as much shelton uptime as you can. if you have any problems with paladins cd then just learn the class better.

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Originally Posted by RubenSnizzle

Raw Intuition -> 90sec Parry all attack from the front (for better effect you awareness)

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Uhhh these dont stack bruh lol. Unless SE changed that with SB to help compensate for war getting trounced by pld now :)

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Originally Posted by Sanctify

Uhhh these dont stack bruh lol. Unless SE changed that with SB to help compensate for war getting trounced by pld now :)

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Uhhh you don't know your skill names bruh lol

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Originally Posted by Ragology

I'm not very good at math so I was wondering if cooldowns used by PLD/DRk were stronger than WAR because they get combined with the 20% tank stance bonus?

WARs tank stance only counts when the health is above the 100% mark. After that, A WAR in Defiance that casts Rampart will get the same reduction as a WAR in deliverance that casts Rampart. I think?

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Here's maths.


Assume a PLD and a WAR with exactly the same stats all across the board, with 40,000 HP.

In Shield Oath, the PLD would have 40,000 HP.
In Defiance, the WAR would have 50,000 HP.

If a mob were to deliver a 15,000 HP attack, the PLD would take 12,000 damage and end up with 28,000 HP (70% of max). The WAR would take 15,000 damage and end up with 35,000 HP (70% of max).

If a healer were to heal them with a 10,000 HP healing spell, the PLD would be healed for 10,000 and end up with 38,000 HP (95% of total). The WAR would be healed for 12,000 HP, ending up with 47,000 HP (94% of total).

If a healer were to heal them with a 10,000 HP healing ability instead, the PLD would be healed for 10,000 and end up with 38,000 (95%) while the WAR would be healed for 10,000, ending up with 45,000 (90%).



If they had both used Rampart on the original attack, the relationship would be unchanged; after the attack, they'd be at PLD:30,400/40,000 (76%), WAR:38,000/50,000 (76%) -- taking equal effective damage. Healing spells and abilities would still favor the PLD, overhealing him in both cases, while the WAR would would be topped off by the spell (50,000/50,000) but not by the ability (48,000/50,000).



Summary: Generally speaking, all three tanks take the same effective damage while in tank stance, but WAR receives less external healing.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Uhhh you don't know your skill names bruh lol

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Welp I mained war in HW and they didnt stack. So give me some concrete evidence otherwise im gona say theres a 99.99% chance if u RI and awareness and think ur gucci and let mobs hit ur flank and back ur gona get devoured in crits lol.

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Originally Posted by Sanctify

Welp I mained war in HW and they didnt stack. So give me some concrete evidence otherwise im gona say theres a 99.99% chance if u RI and awareness and think ur gucci and let mobs hit ur flank and back ur gona get devoured in crits lol.

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You're wrong. Awareness stopped all crits in 3.0, including the ones forced by Raw Intuition. Now in 4.0, RI+Awareness lets you parry from behind too.

https://youtu.be/fVgrVqR6-nY?t=19s

Musta been patched sometime in hw i clearly remember the two not stacking.

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Originally Posted by Sanctify

Musta been patched sometime in hw i clearly remember the two not stacking.

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The only Time where they may had not stacked would be right at the release. But as far as I remember they always functioned together

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Originally Posted by Icepick823

with Passage of Arms, you get 100% block rate

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Pretty sure that's just doubling your rate not actually setting it to 100+%.