RDM and Diversion/AoE

I'd like to pick the brains of all you RDMs out there!

Lately when in dungeons, I've noticed RDMs take hate easily yet so few will use Diversion/Lucid Dreaming. Is there a reason for this? I'm almost at the point to where I groan when I see one because I know mobs are going to be bouncing all over.

Secondly, there can be 4+ mobs on the screen, yet so many single target. Is RDM aoe that bad? Is single targeting better even when there's about a dozen mobs onscreen?

Normally I'd think it's one or two people's playstyles, but I've seen a LOT of RDMs play this way.

Edit: Forgot to mention Lucid Dreaming as well.

Most dps wont admit it but secretly they like pulling mob agro as a sign of "look how badass my dsp is".

If they never use it, it's because simply that they are bad. They literally don't know what they are doing (or don't care). Keep in mind it has a cooldown and won't necessarily be up for every pack. But as I see it there is no reason to not have Diversion and Lucid Dreaming as a caster.

If 4+ Mobs you should spam scatter and then moulinet when appropriate.

At 3 mobs hit the rdm sweet spot. Scatter then instant aero/thunder to build mana gauge. Alternate between all 3 targets with your single target attack.

Why not use diversion? Well, usually Lucid Dreaming is enough. Our Aoe isn't that great. Diversion I carry most of the time, but find it a little unneeded in aoe pulls, since I'm going to pop lucid anyways. 100% Need it for bosses though if you give rdms a countdown lol

Imo there no reason why you shouldn't have both diversion and lucid as a rdm to control your enmity. 1 of 2 things is happening.

1. Either they just have an empty void where their brain should be.

2. (I like to think the accounts for most) during dungeons rdm built alot of guage and come boss time they are often ready to open with thier melee burst... if diversion is not off cool down for the pull then you probably aren't getting agro back unless they die. Nobody wants that, so I imagine they are sitting on diversion for that. Not saying that's the correct way to play but I imagine it's the thought process behind not diversioning on trash mobs.

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Originally Posted by Khaidal

Lately when in dungeons, I've noticed RDMs take hate easily yet so few will use Diversion/Lucid Dreaming. Is there a reason for this? I'm almost at the point to where I groan when I see one because I know mobs are going to be bouncing all over.

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(The following numbers include traits and stances, and are normalized for tanks whose attack power is 75% of the RDM's attack magic potency, using values from these tables)

Enmity generation per action:


Scatter is 130 potency per target.

Flash is about 900 potency per target.
Shield Oathed Flash is about 2065 potency per target.

Overpower is about 900 potency per target.
Deliveranced Overpower is about 945 potency per target.
Defianced Overpower is about 1944 potency per target.

Unleash is about 900 potency per target.
Gritted Unleash is about 1950 potency per target.
Grit+DarkSide Unleash is about 2330 potency per target.


Diversion shouldn't be needed on Scatter spam.

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Originally Posted by Khaidal

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Easy answer:
those are bad rdm.

Explained answer:
Rdm opener pulls a lot of dps and in turn a lot of enmity. Bad dps don't pay attention to their enmity and think they are cool/cute/awesome because they pulled hate off a pld that has to spam enmity generation to keep up.
As a rdm I always pop diversion before running my opener, I have less defense and less hp than a tank, why would I want to take hate? If my enmity bar hits yellow, I hit lucid dreaming.
There is zero excuse for a rdm to be pulling hate the way they do.

Secondly for rdm AoE:
Again bad players. Scatter spam and enchanted moulinet are the way to go. I have even told rdm I have run across to use scatter/moulinet and I have been straight up told "I like single target," or "I like dealing high damage numbers." Not realizing that it is actually slower.

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Originally Posted by Khaidal

Secondly, there can be 4+ mobs on the screen, yet so many single target. Is RDM aoe that bad? Is single targeting better even when there's about a dozen mobs onscreen?

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At exactly three targets, a mixed approach should be taken, as Rawrz explained. Scatter-Verslowspell-Scatter-Verslowspell. This does the same damage as Scatter-Scatter-Scatter-Scatter but generates more mana for Moulinet.

At four or more targets, Scatter spam does more damage.

Here and here are maths.

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Originally Posted by Rhyn

If they never use it, it's because simply that they are bad. They literally don't know what they are doing (or don't care). Keep in mind it has a cooldown and won't necessarily be up for every pack. But as I see it there is no reason to not have Diversion and Lucid Dreaming as a caster.

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Or the Tank can stop worrying about "muh deeps" and stay in Tank stance. Then you won't lose hate. Anytime I rip hate on SAM/RDM it's because the Tank is generally too busy dps'ing and forgetting they are, in fact, a tank.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

(The following numbers include traits and stances, and are normalized for tanks whose attack power is 75% of the RDM's attack magic potency, using values from these tables)

Enmity generation per action:


Diversion shouldn't be needed on Scatter spam.

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Edited for post length.

I see now about Scatter. In that case it's bad tanking. More commonly though I see RDMs doing big bursts on bosses right after shield lob and causing all sorts of issues lol.

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Originally Posted by Khaidal

More commonly though I see RDMs doing big bursts on bosses right after shield lob and causing all sorts of issues lol.

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Yeah, that's something that can be avoided with Diversion. Since we just established that Diversion shouldn't be necessary on trash, it should almost certainly be available for a boss opener, and RDM can do an absurd amount of damage (about 1500 potency) in the first two seconds after the tank engages.

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Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin

Or the Tank can stop worrying about "muh deeps" and stay in Tank stance. Then you won't lose hate. Anytime I rip hate on SAM/RDM it's because the Tank is generally too busy dps'ing and forgetting they are, in fact, a tank.

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Maybe you should stop talking about "doing your job" when your job includes tools to increase overall group dps that you choose not to use. Yes I'm talking about diversion. If all the dps use diversion and mitigate as much aggro gain as possible, the tank can do more damage while still holding aggro, increasing overall group dps and improving clear times. Suggesting that tanks should always be in tank stance and just hold aggro is the biggest scrub advice ever, an untrained monkey can hold aggro in ffxiv.

So the primary scatter target takes the most obviously. After 2-3 scatters I often see my threat creep up. I hit lucid and switch to another target for scatter. If I start to pull again. I hit diversion. If something comes after me after that.. it's typically because the tank is trying too hard to dps instead of rotating threat.

There's nothing to be done at that point.

It gets even worse with Enchanted Moulinet since its so bursty.

TLDR: yes, those RDM are playing poorly

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Originally Posted by Grelvin

So the primary scatter target takes the most obviously. After 2-3 scatters I often see my threat creep up. I hit lucid and switch to another target for scatter. If I start to pull again. I hit diversion. If something comes after me after that.. it's typically because the tank is trying too hard to dps instead of rotating threat.

There's nothing to be done at that point.

It gets even worse with Enchanted Moulinet since its so bursty.

TLDR: yes, those RDM are playing poorly

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That's not the way to utilize these skills. You should lead with diversion when starting the pull to have lower enmity generation off the bat, THEN if you still happen to pull aggro or get close to it you can use lucid to halve all your enmity. See the difference here? by starting with diversion you lower your enmity generation from the very start and then further halve it later on when you have created a lot of it.

I see this a lot though, it seems people do not quite understand how these 2 skills works. Diversion reduces ALL your enmity generated while it is active. Lucid Halves your current enmity on use and after that point does nothing for you (other than restore mp for its duration)

That said, i have found if playing with a good tank i hardly ever need to use them at all (but i still do, cause why not it doesn't affect me in any way to push them) while you gotta be a little more careful on the other end of the spectrum of tanks, but it sure helps there to have them available.

Was just speaking in a general conversational tone. I don't nessicarily use those skills in that order always. I feel out the tank abit first.

The take-away from what I was talking about is that if you do not switch Scatter targets, you're probably going to pull. (Your avg RDM not really utilizing any threat reduction) - And if you don't prep yourself for the hate that's going to come with 3-4 Enchanted Moulinet, you're also going to pull.

I don't really have trouble with threat in general. If I do, I'm not the only one in the group.

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Originally Posted by Grelvin

Was just speaking in a general conversational tone. I don't nessicarily use those skills in that order always. I feel out the tank abit first.

The take-away from what I was talking about is that if you do not switch Scatter targets, you're probably going to pull. (Your avg RDM not really utilizing any threat reduction) - And if you don't prep yourself for the hate that's going to come with 3-4 Enchanted Moulinet, you're also going to pull.

I don't really have trouble with threat in general. If I do, I'm not the only one in the group.

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Yeah for sure, i was just pointing out in the scenario you put forth is a very inefficient way to utilize these skills, but hey still better than not using them at all which a lot of people sadly don't.

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Originally Posted by Khaidal

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I'm the exact opposite. I've been leveling my RDM through dungeons and have been struggling with threat despite using Diversion and Lucid Dreaming practically on cd. But then I get a tank that's more on their game (maybe they're better geared?) and it's a world of difference.

I will say, though, RDMs have been in the game for...how many weeks? They start at level 50. Don't expect a flood of experienced RDM/SAMs. Give them time. Even after reading a job guide or watching a video on rotations it's easy to mess up or forget what button you're suppose to hit next when you're dodging mechanics and whatnot. "How many mobs do I just Scatter spam again? Crap."

lemme ask a "bad RDM" question.

how, exactly, does Diversion work? I use it whenever I see yellow on my enmity list, but i've never been sure exactly how it functions.

is it an instant decrease in emnity? is it gradual, reducing a set amount of enmity over time? or does it just cause your spells to generate less aggro for the duration?

I use Lucid Dreaming for MP recovery, the enmity decrease I consider a bonus. perhaps I should not use it in this manner.

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Originally Posted by Grelvin

So the primary scatter target takes the most obviously.

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Scatter and Moulinet are both non-diminishing. All targets will be hit for the same potency, aside from auto-attacks, which shouldn't make a big difference.

If you're pulling agro with Scatter spam, the tank isn't using his AoE enmity generator enough. A single Flash/Overpower/Unleash should be enough to keep things off you for at least six Scatters or three Enchanted Moulinets, even without tank stance.

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Originally Posted by JMadFour

lemme ask a "bad RDM" question.

how, exactly, does Diversion work? I use it whenever I see yellow on my enmity list, but i've never been sure exactly how it functions.

is it an instant decrease in emnity? is it gradual, reducing a set amount of enmity over time? or does it just cause your spells to generate less aggro for the duration?

I use Lucid Dreaming for MP recovery, the enmity decrease I consider a bonus. perhaps I should not use it in this manner.

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Diversion basically shrinks how much damage the mob thinks your doing. Say currently you hit mob for 100dmg you gain 100 enmity, with diversion this would be less, so 100dmg 80 enmity or w/e the value is.
Lucid Dreaming makes the mob think your a total scrub. Drops your current enmity by a huge chunk,say you curently have 10k enmity, hit LD you have 5k enmity
Diversion is better used BEFORE your do a ton of damage, Lucid Dreaming is better AFTER you do a ton of damage.

Dont turn my math into cannon, its just easy to see numbers to get an idea of function.

Also some tanks just suck, ended up tanking/OT Menagerie on SAM while using diversion on CD. Dying kindof helped... For a sec.

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Originally Posted by JMadFour

how, exactly, does Diversion work? I use it whenever I see yellow on my enmity list, but i've never been sure exactly how it functions.

is it an instant decrease in emnity? is it gradual, reducing a set amount of enmity over time? or does it just cause your spells to generate less aggro for the duration?

I use Lucid Dreaming for MP recovery, the enmity decrease I consider a bonus. perhaps I should not use it in this manner.

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Diversion is an enmity suppressor. After using it, all your actions generate only 50% of the enmity they would normally generate. Note that you will generate a little bit of enmity just from activating Diversion, 455 points, and this is enough to get something to look at you if the tank hasn't poked it yet. But after that activation, your enmity generation is halved for the duration of the ability.

Lucid Dreaming is an enmity drop. It will instantly reduce your enmity by half, and then give you 455 points.

The 455 extra enmity in both cases is because any ability that applies a self buff will generate about this much enmity.



So Diversion is typically better early in the encounter, when you haven't generated enough enmity yet to make Dreaming worth it, and Dreaming is better later in the encounter when "half" of your enmity is a lot.

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Originally Posted by OcieKo

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Originally Posted by Rongway

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so...I've been doing it wrong. gotcha, I'll keep this in mind.

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Originally Posted by JMadFour

I use Lucid Dreaming for MP recovery, the enmity decrease I consider a bonus. perhaps I should not use it in this manner.

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Unless you're using a lot of vercure or verraise you should never have an MP issue, it is primarily an aggro dump tool, the mp refresh is just a bonus.

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Originally Posted by Rhyn

Maybe you should stop talking about "doing your job" when your job includes tools to increase overall group dps that you choose not to use. Yes I'm talking about diversion. If all the dps use diversion and mitigate as much aggro gain as possible, the tank can do more damage while still holding aggro, increasing overall group dps and improving clear times. Suggesting that tanks should always be in tank stance and just hold aggro is the biggest scrub advice ever, an untrained monkey can hold aggro in ffxiv.

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Seeing as how many tanks bitched about aggro before they buffed emnity I'm gonna say no, but please continue to be a sterling example of this wonderful online community.