Is "Traditional" a cop out?

This is not my opinion so dont flame me....
I'm actually on the fence on this one and cant make up my mind....
But with the game being down it seemed like a good time to discuss it

With the game being so unpolished and downright unfinished..... Yoshi P has made many references to going back to the FF roots... and pulling from previous games, mentioning several previous installments...

But what does that mean to YOU, the gamer, the Final fantasy fan, the new MMO player.. the FFXI vet, the WoW vet... whatever your background is...

I've always felt that SE balanced new and old so well in every game.... Each FF title had familiar elements (chocobos, which we wont talk about here, Cid, Moogles, Recurring MOBs) but the gameplay elements were always drastically different....
And that was good...
VI was cool... we loved Blitz and who didn't fall in love with the auto-crossbow
And as good as VI was (Damn near perfect)
VII was completely different... and WE LOVED it
And VIII was even more of a deviation from the norm
X Didn't even have levels
XII didn't have random battles
final fantasy IV introduced the ATB (Active time battle) system that we all came to know and love
We've seen new weapons (gun blades and sports balls) mixed with old favorites (swords, axes, staffs)
And with all this, maybe even because of this, SE has always been able to mix Medieval with fantasy, retro with futuristic, realism with the unbelievable with such ease that we had no choice but to be drawn in....

With that being said... How do you feel about the "If it aint broke" mentality?
Materia wasn't broken... but it wasn't in VIII?
and we were better gamers for it.... in fact, when they tried to rehash old ideas (Tetramaster in IX) it didn't go over well...
If you're going to remake VII, then remake VII.... if you're going to redo XI, then give that game an overhaul.... or call a new game XI-2...
but should a numbered title be made to look like an older title, just to try and please people?
SE has never had to try and please a pissed off community.... Is that line of thinking going to hurt this game?

What would be wrong with inventing brand new jobs to work as advanced jobs for these classes?

Do all the answers for this game lie in FFXI??? FFVII? FFVI? FFX??? FFXII? you get the point...
discuss.... try not to flame... and expect me to play the devil's advocate (See: devil's advocate but not troll)

You make some good points, but you didn't hit home on all of them in my opinion.

Mainly, yes, you need to please the masses. The reality is we have two main camps of players that tried FFXIV. We have the wow heads and their cousins, and we have the ffxi players. Both expected certain things but neither really got what they wanted. The wow heads all went back to wow, and we're left with the old ffxi players, who do expect certain elements from ffxi, because they worked there, and that's why they're playing this franchise of online games.

There's more to this than just following the traditional FF path of creating new games. The world of single player rpgs and that of mmorpgs is very different. What you can get away with in a single player game you can't get away with in an mmorpg. What you're suggesting is exactly what SE did, and it very nearly cost them the entire game an irreparable damage to the franchise if the game actually did fail.

The reality is, most people here have played ffxi in the past, and are playing here now in some part based on that fact. While no one really wants to play a graphical upgrade of ffxi I don't believe, I think there many who have certain expectations of ffxiv based on their experiences with ffxi, and certain other expectations based on what they liked from other mmorpgs they played.

Personally, I like the direction the game is headed in, from what I know of it. I like the fact that we seem to have a great deal of say as to where this game goes developmentally as well. And I think that a certain amount of development needs to go to pleasing the masses so to speak, and a certain amount needs to go to maintaining a certain vision and expectation of the game itself as it relates to the FF franchise. I don't think this game can succeed if those two elements aren't heavily considered and in relatively in balance with each other.

That's my 2 cents at least.

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Originally Posted by Gicker

There's more to this than just following the traditional FF path of creating new games. The world of single player rpgs and that of mmorpgs is very different. What you can get away with in a single player game you can't get away with in an mmorpg. What you're suggesting is exactly what SE did, and it very nearly cost them the entire game an irreparable damage to the franchise if the game actually did fail.

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True... but was it a fail because it was different.. or did it fail because it was grossly unfinished? How many ideas from early on in the "Tanaka era" would have been better received had the game been finished with little to no lag, or bugs... and a plethora of content? Its like someone giving a presentation in a dirty suit, with wrinkled graphs.... smudged papers and an overall bad smell...
The ideas weren't necessarily bad but no one gave them any consideration because the packaging was so rough

I do not think they should look back and "copy" things from singleplayer Final Fantasy games. However, when you play FFXIV you get the feeling this is their first and only MMORPG. They completely forgot everything they did in FFXI and started from 0 instead of taking the good parts of FFXI and implement them into FFXIV.

Some example
A search function to find player around the world.
An delivery/mailbox system.
An easier to understand and an easier to use create party system.
Map notes.
Camera system (including not being able to assign the arrow keys to anything in FFXIV).

Those things above are just a few examples. All of the things I mentioned above are important details that can make or break a game. However, none of those details needs to be unique in every single game. I am sure none would have whined about having the same /sea function as in FFXI or having the same delivery system as in FFXI or even have an action house like in FFXI.

To have a more direct answer on your question. No, I do not think all the answers for FFXI lie in the other FF games. They should look at FFXI a bit more and copy the good working parts of that game into FFXI. Not the whole gameplay, but simply things like a /sea function, party create function and so on. You summed up the other FF things pretty well (Cid, Chocobo, Airship, even Moogles). Those are things that are in every FF and they are in FFXIV too.

The thing I miss most right now is the thrill I had when I started FFXI. I miss the missions, the quests, the whole conquest feeling. If they would just copy that part from FFXI, but give it a FFXIV feel it would be good enough for me for the time being.

Maybe it will come, who knows. After all FFXI was out for a while before the NA release arrived (I am from EU but got the NA release myself). The last patch made me start playing again, but I would lie if I wouldn't say that I was stil la bit disappointed, especially at the new quests ....

Your right, the reason we love Final Fantasy is because each and every game is different and special in its own way.

The problem with XIV however, is it strayed to far from its FF roots. The Current Class/Job names are fine, but they don't sound or feel like a FF class.

I think that Yoshi-P has made many references to the roots of FF because that's what we love, the roots. I don't think he meant he wants to copy the other games, but he wants to rebuild the foundation with what made these FF games.

Basically it's about rebuilding with the FF foundation and then branching out to make XIV its own unique game.

I'm willing to bet that the game was a flop because it was unfinished. Had Tanaka actually had an extra year or maybe just another 6 to 8 months before releasing the game, I doubt it would be anywhere near the state it was at launch.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

I'm willing to bet that the game was a flop because it was unfinished. Had Tanaka actually had an extra year or maybe just another 6 to 8 months before releasing the game, I doubt it would be anywhere near the state it was at launch.

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Yeah, it pretty much got pushed out before it was ready, which the blame could be placed on Wada - Since 6-7 months later FFXI was already beginning to expand and grow and shortly after, the first expansion pack.

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Originally Posted by Evenstar

Some example
A search function to find player around the world.
An delivery/mailbox system.
An easier to understand and an easier to use create party system.
Map notes.
Camera system (including not being able to assign the arrow keys to anything in FFXIV).

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Those just seem like common sense though, regardless if you're the company that made FFXI or not... those seem like things even a new MMO maker would want to include
A delivery system for items and messages in game just makes sense to everyone... How possible is it that those things were meant to be put in, but just got lost in the severe deadline and time constraint?

Final Fantasy is at its best when it's a remix of itself with a new cast and a new story. It's the one thing that shouldn't change.

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Originally Posted by Gicker

...The reality is we have two main camps of players that tried FFXIV. We have the wow heads and their cousins, and we have the ffxi players. Both expected certain things but neither really got what they wanted. The wow heads all went back to wow...

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Not all the "wow heads" went back to wow. Wow was too dependent on other players at end game for me. I may run into the same problem with this game when i get there. I'm hopeing that's not the case. In the mean time i'm enjoying FFXiv.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

I'm willing to bet that the game was a flop because it was unfinished. Had Tanaka actually had an extra year or maybe just another 6 to 8 months before releasing the game, I doubt it would be anywhere near the state it was at launch.

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No doubt. It was released way too early and we can only guess why that happened. I still believe it is possible to fix the game and get back some of the players. Especially the ones that play(ed) FFXI. The ones coming and going from/to WoW are players that will never stick around for too long anyway. They would have lost them sooner or later anyway. It is the old FF fanbase and old/current FFXI players they have to try to get/keep. That combined with some PS3 players when the PS3 version is released might deliver just enough to keep things rolling and profitable for Square Enix.

This whole earthquake disaster couldn't come at a worse time for Square Enix as a company. Not that there is ever a good time for such a disaster, but I hope you guys understand what I am trying to say. Don't get me wrong, I am not whining nor mad or sad that the servers are offline. I was suprised they stayed up as long as they did in the first place and I totally support their decision.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

True... but was it a fail because it was different.. or did it fail because it was grossly unfinished? How many ideas from early on in the "Tanaka era" would have been better received had the game been finished with little to no lag, or bugs... and a plethora of content? Its like someone giving a presentation in a dirty suit, with wrinkled graphs.... smudged papers and an overall bad smell...
The ideas weren't necessarily bad but no one gave them any consideration because the packaging was so rough

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I think the fact it was unfinished really played a big role in its initial failure. Even if they had finished it with a lot of content and bug free, I think it still would have failed.

The problem is the different ideas and methods FFXIV had. Things like the armory system and levequests and others sound great on paper, but they don't look so good when you actually play them.

I think that one major issue that's keeping the game back now, and would keep the game back even if it was finished, is the lack of class uniqueness.

The armory system sounds neat on paper, but it holds back the classes from being different. If any class can use any skill why should I play PUG over LNC or ARC. Eventually it would reach the point where someone figured out an "alpha class" and suddenly everyone is going to be that class mixture.

And that is why Yoshi-P wants to look and past FFs extensively, because each character and job had a good amount of individuality.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

True... but was it a fail because it was different.. or did it fail because it was grossly unfinished? How many ideas from early on in the "Tanaka era" would have been better received had the game been finished with little to no lag, or bugs... and a plethora of content? Its like someone giving a presentation in a dirty suit, with wrinkled graphs.... smudged papers and an overall bad smell...
The ideas weren't necessarily bad but no one gave them any consideration because the packaging was so rough

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to me this game was the equal to going out and getting a brand new white suit then taking it outside and throw it in the mud. sure it is brand new, but you feel dirty wearing it because it is not in great condition. yes, you can take the suit home and clean it up and it will be pretty again, but who wants to buy a dirty suit knowing you can "fix it" in the future. i believe most of the complaints is due to the game being released in less than finished condition. for this reason there are alot of people that are upset they left their old finished games to come here so want elements from the implemented.

this game is the same as the suit in the event that they have a huge future, but it is hard to look past all the dirt on it now.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Those just seem like common sense though, regardless if you're the company that made FFXI or not... those seem like things even a new MMO maker would want to include
A delivery system for items and messages in game just makes sense to everyone... How possible is it that those things were meant to be put in, but just got lost in the severe deadline and time constraint?

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I honestly can't find any other reason why it was not in the release. I really can't. I couldn't agree more with you, thats for sure.

Then again, Square Enix is not stupid (at least I assume they are not .... being a huge game developer). I just do not get who made the decision to release the game and who really expected their players to accept the game as it was, while there were such huge basic things still mising.

I really do not think it is too hard to write a code to add at least a /sea function ....

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Originally Posted by napalmninja

I think the fact it was unfinished really played a big role in its initial failure. Even if they had finished it with a lot of content and bug free, I think it still would have failed.

The problem is the different ideas and methods FFXIV had. Things like the armory system and levequests and others sound great on paper, but they don't look so good when you actually play them.

I think that one major issue that's keeping the game back now, and would keep the game back even if it was finished, is the lack of class uniqueness.

The armory system sounds neat on paper, but it holds back the classes from being different. If any class can use any skill why should I play PUG over LNC or ARC. Eventually it would reach the point where someone figured out an "alpha class" and suddenly everyone is going to be that class mixture.

And that is why Yoshi-P wants to look and past FFs extensively, because each character and job had a good amount of individuality.

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remove the armory system and lose alot of people that got the game for this one specific thing. i know alot of high level people in multiple classes that would leave just by removing this. i got the game to be able to make my character what i want not be restricted by a job i am expected to play and i know alot of people that feel this way.

The original launch of FFXIV imo failed because of two reasons.

1) It was unfinished, a blind, dumb, deaf mute could come to this conclusion. I love the game, but it was rushed out the door.
2) Some things in the game seem to have been made different, not because its a better system than other mmo's, but just because it would be different. That was a mistake, Yoshi-P even dropped a comment on it.

I have faith that come PS3 launch this game is going to be what most of us hope for.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

remove the armory system and lose alot of people that got the game for this one specific thing. i know alot of high level people in multiple classes that would leave just by removing this. i got the game to be able to make my character what i want not be restricted by a job i am expected to play and i know alot of people that feel this way.

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I don't mean they should remove the system all together they just need to fix it is all. Maybe make the penalties for using another classes skill more severe or make more class specific skills or even bonuses to using your own classes skill.

This way there's some incentive to play as different classes but you still have the capability to mix and match skills if you like.

EDIT: Better skill animations would make classes feel more unique also.

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Originally Posted by napalmninja

I don't mean they should remove the system all together they just need to fix it is all. Maybe make the penalties for using another classes skill more severe or make more class specific skills or even bonuses to using your own classes skill.

This way there's some incentive to play as different classes but you still have the capability to mix and match skills if you like.

EDIT: Also better skill animations would make classes feel more unique also.

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Indeed, something as simple as better/unique skill animations would make a hell of a difference already.

They should polish the armory system. They should be able to change it in such a way that you still can mix and match, but have an unique (main) class anyway. Right now it is like having a subjob in FFXI that is at the same level as your main, which totally kills the uniqueness of any class. A Black Mage that can cast Cure V ....

all that needs to be done is post cap abilities would be considered advanced abilities and only used by that class and the abilities received from guild marks would be class specific. that would allow cross classing of base abilities and specific advanced abilities that would allow end game people to need people from each class, but allow people that want to go farm blah blah part of this mob to do so.

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Originally Posted by napalmninja

I think that one major issue that's keeping the game back now, and would keep the game back even if it was finished, is the lack of class uniqueness.

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Had they come out and said "Yes, the main classes are beige and bland because we plan to have job specialization from each of them, so the main bland classes become obsolete anyway" would people have still complained?

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Had they come out and said "Yes, the main classes are beige and bland because we plan to have job specialization from each of them, so the main bland classes become obsolete anyway" would people have still complained?

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Probably, people like to find some reason to complain. At least there would have been something to look forward to for those not complaining.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Had they come out and said "Yes, the main classes are beige and bland because we plan to have job specialization from each of them, so the main bland classes become obsolete anyway" would people have still complained?

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me i got the game because of the ads promoting being able to level up multiple classes and make you own unique character. this is why i do not do the mmo's for the most part is the fact that even though you have the same character you are restricted to being able to only do one set of skills. if i took the time to level multiple classes why should i be restricted from using them? that in itself is the only reason i got into vix.

Good point about it being unfinished/lacking in features. And sorry, I didn't mean wow-head as a derogitory term... sorry it offended you.

I think a lot of people that are poopooing the modernization of the gameplay because it breaks "tradition" don't really understand what tradition means in the FF series.

FF tradition has always been about the lore, characters, world, erc. They've pretty much kept up with tradition: chocobos, evil empire, white/black mage, etc.

What they haven't done is make a modern game in terms of gameplay. They've modernized and updated the gameplay for practically EVERY Final Fantasy game leading up to FFXIII. That's why a lot of people are frustrated at this game (and FFXIII). Gameplay is so backwards and barebones, that it feels like you're playing something from 10+ years ago.

I feel like "tradition" is just giving people an excuse to be obstinate about adding certain features that weren't in XI.

To the OP, you're obviously wrong because you are either the most enlightened individual in the gaming world(FFXI player), or you're simply a retard for not liking FFXI(And thus, you must play WoW).

Didn't you know there aren't any other types of gamers out there? So not, it has to be like X game, nothing new or different. Just reskin and retitle. /rollseyes

OP your post is well thought out, but I feel it falls on deaf ears in this "community".

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Originally Posted by Gicker

Good point about it being unfinished/lacking in features. And sorry, I didn't mean wow-head as a derogitory term... sorry it offended you.

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You didn't offend me. If anything you gave me a chuckle. Just wanted to let ya know, wow-heads can be converted.:)

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Originally Posted by Rydin

VI was cool... we loved Blitz and who didn't fall in love with the auto-crossbow
And as good as VI was (Damn near perfect)
VII was completely different... and WE LOVED it
And VIII was even more of a deviation from the norm
X Didn't even have levels
XII didn't have random battles

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hahaha. I find it hillarious that you intentionally left out Final Fantasy I, II, III, and V - three of which are the only Final Fantasy titles worth anyone's time (unless they're a noob). Not to mention, Final Fantasy XI was based on Final Fantasy III's gameplay - so like many others: you don't know wtf you are talking about.

Keep in mind, I say this with the most utmost respect for your own capacity to take what I say and learn from it.

Anyway, moving onto something more fundamentally important: There's something wrong with your logic. Final Fantasy XI was a massively multiplayer game. You can't group it into the same genre of the other titles because it's completely different. You never had to communicate or cooperate with free-thinkers in a previous Final Fantasy title. You never had to create your own single personalized character for which you feel some personal attachment.

For that reason, you can't group it into the same genre. Fans of RPGs don't care about gameplay as much, because it's single-player, and likely the only reason they're playing the game is because of the "storyline" and "graphics". It's different for mmo players. Honestly, I don't care either way, because after Final Fantasy X, Square-Enix and the fanbase have already told me they want crappy games now.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

...Gameplay is so backwards and barebones, that it feels like you're playing something from 10+ years ago.

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...I'm going to assume you're talking about actual game content, as most people will agree that an active combat system, the armory system, and things like insta teleports are pretty great.

If you actually mean gameplay... Well, like I said, I'm pretty sure most people will disagree with that point.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

...I'm going to assume you're talking about actual game content, as most people will agree that an active combat system, the armory system, and things like insta teleports are pretty great.

If you actually mean gameplay... Well, I'm pretty sure most people will disagree with that point.

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No, I literally mean gameplay.

Combat is awful (which is why it's been a major focus of change since like early Feburary). Menu system was a disaster at the start, now it's passable. Leve system still sucks. Crafting is boring. Gathering is boring and slow. Early market wards were for masochists, now they're simply annoying. Controls are unintuitive and awkward for keyboard. LS system blows. Can go on for centuries.

In fact, these are the things people most common things are complaining about. Do you even read the forums or play the game? Or do you just assume that since you're alright with current gameplay that everyone is as well?

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Originally Posted by sini

You didn't offend me. If anything you gave me a chuckle. Just wanted to let ya know, wow-heads can be converted.:)

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Haha good to know, and yes, I am playing WoW with my brother during FFXIV's downtime :)

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

...I'm going to assume you're talking about actual game content, as most people will agree that an active combat system, the armory system, and things like insta teleports are pretty great.

If you actually mean gameplay... Well, like I said, I'm pretty sure most people will disagree with that point.

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I respectfully disagree with you.

A combat system where you spam button one and sometimes 2 is hardly active. insta teleport is nice, except anima doesn't recharge fast enough to consistently use it as a form of travel. And the armory system may seem nice, but it needs some serious tweaks.

I agree with Wolfie if these things were great, then Tanaka would still be in charge and we wouldn't be under going massive reconstruction.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

No, I literally mean gameplay.

Combat is awful (which is why it's been a major focus of change since like early Feburary). Menu system was a disaster at the start, now it's passable. Leve system still sucks. Crafting is boring. Gathering is boring and slow. Early market wards were for masochists, now they're simply annoying. Controls are unintuitive and awkward for keyboard. LS system blows. Can go on for centuries.

In fact, these are the things people most common things are complaining about. Do you even read the forums or play the game? Or do you just assume that since you're alright with current gameplay that everyone is as well?

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There's hardly any need to be snide.

I've been reading these forums since they opened on day one, and one thing that I'm surprised to see(due to reading other forums) is a consensus among A LOT of players that they enjoy several of these things, and as such, would disagree with your original point.

I don't recall any other game in the main FF series having a system as active as this. Maybe FFX-2's was faster and more interesting with the combo mechanic, but you still had to wait on commands and turns. There are also several pages worth of people saying they don't actually "spam 1" all the time. That's an argument I'd rather leave in that thread. You should read it some time.

Well I think they just tried to break the mold, and in trying new things, or old things with a new twist, they didn't succeed in as many areas as they liked. That being said I'm glad to see they are focused on doing what they can to get the game to a state where most reasonable people can accept. As for me personally, I've had fun with the game since the beginning. The biggest change for me has been the market wards... I don't find them annoying at all anymore, I think they work quite well. What's the difference between having to run to the proper ward to buy it and having to run to your mog house to pick the item up?

I even think battle is doing fine, though I agree with those who are requesting an autoattack, mainly because I find the animations are too laggy.

I believe the developers are for the most part junior developers or new to MMORPG development, right? I agree that it does show, but I think the game, in concept, is good, and the combination of that concept with player expectations will leave us with a well polished game after a couple of years of updates.

I maintain my position from other forums that the game was not broken from the get go. It had the normal bugs expected from any release, which were quickly fixed, and the rest was simply a set up that a large portion of people simply didn't like. They took a chance and failed. The fact that people didn't like how things worked didn't mean it was broken... it's simply a case of people not liking the way the system was set up. And though there were certain aspects of the game that seemed unbalanced, again, this is common to new game releases.

At the end of the day the many squeaky wheels are getting their grease, and much of that is making our game better whether we were raging our displeasure or simply enjoying the game offered to us and trying to work within and understand that system. Ultimately I am looking forward to what is on the horizon. The game's depth beyond combat and crafting is lackluster, but nothing unexpected from a new game.

To me the best thing for this game, in an ideal world, would have been to have fun with the game that was given to us, and let all of the development time and efforts go toward improving that system and adding content. However this world isn't ideal, and given that, I think what we're seeing from feedback from the fanbase and SE's response is what's best for the game, I only wish more people would realize that and be a tad more respectful and tolerant in their posts and suggestions.

However when you're dealing with teenage and tweenage angst en-masse, that's another reality of our imperfect world. Though on the flip side, teens and tweens also bring passion and fervor, so I think ultimately the game is in good hands and is heading in a good direction.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

There's hardly any need to be snide.

I've been reading these forums since they opened on day one, and one thing that I'm surprised to see(due to reading other forums) is a consensus among A LOT of players that they enjoy several of these things, and as such, would disagree with your original point.

I don't recall any other game in the main FF series having a system as active as this. Maybe FFX-2's was faster and more interesting with the combo mechanic, but you still had to wait on commands and turns.

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"A lot" is an extremely vague term in this case, because "a lot more" people would agree with me.

I'm arguing with cold, hard numbers here, that you can see in the poll results that SE released:

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...16083b634f7678
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...98e4034b898102

Only 6.6% of the people polled thought of gameplay as the most appealing part of FFXIV. Auction house, a fix for market wards, was the 2nd most requested addition to FFXIV. 72% of the people expected overhaul to FFXIV gameplay. The 2nd most requested fix was the combat system, behind lack of content, and ahead of market wards. Only 16% of the people like the current bonus point system.

Seriously, I'm not trying to be a douche here, but you're clearly looking at this from a very biased standpoint. Gameplay is the WORST thing about FFXIV. It's broken and crappy and needs fixing. It's been criticized up and down about it since release, by professional reviewers, amateurs, current players players, former players, prospective players, trolls, cats, whatever. Even SE and Yoshi themselves released information that this is true.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

"A lot" is an extremely vague term in this case, because "a lot more" people would agree with me.

I'm arguing with cold, hard numbers here, that you can see in the poll results that SE released:

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...16083b634f7678
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...98e4034b898102

Only 6.6% of the people polled thought of gameplay as the most appealing part of FFXIV. Auction house, a fix for market wards, was the 2nd most requested addition to FFXIV. 72% of the people expected overhaul to FFXIV gameplay. The 2nd most requested fix was the combat system, behind lack of content, and ahead of market wards. Only 16% of the people like the current bonus point system.

Seriously, I'm not trying to be a douche here, but you're clearly looking at this from a very biased standpoint. Gameplay is the WORST thing about FFXIV. It's broken and crappy and needs fixing. It's been criticized up and down about it since release, by professional reviewers, amateurs, current players players, former players, prospective players, trolls, cats, whatever. Even SE and Yoshi themselves released information that this is true.

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These numbers are what led me to believe that nobody liked the stuff in the first place, but then I waltz in to the appropriate threads here, and to my surprise, plenty of people(at least those who have posted) enjoy things like the aforementioned combat and such.

Keep in mind that all those results are the combined percentages of all regions. If you look at the combined numbers for each region separately, then things aren't so obviously unanimous. There's still a wide margin of people who don't agree on all the issues you're presenting or at least not huge numbers pointing in any direction. Using those polls won't give you the best picture for that reason and several others.

I don't think there's anything wrong with SE borrowing from "traditional" Final Fantasy games. But I don't think it's lack of traditionalism is why the game is failing.

I don't think anyone except maybe Abrieal would argue that FFXIV was released too early and in an unfinished state. [It's a joke dude, don't flip out if/when you decide to take a break from playing house (Read: domestic disturbance) with Rolf and read this.]

But in my opinion, a main flaw in their design was their approach of originality. Originality is a fantastic thing and I applaud developers who aren't too afraid to explore new ideas. The problem is, SE seemed to think that originality for originality's sake was enough. Just because something is original doesn't make it a good idea. Are market wards with a half-assed search function (only recently added mind you) better than a fully functional AH? I certainly don't think so. There are plenty of examples of SE attempting to utilize original ideas in the game that just haven't panned out.

Borrowing ideas from successful MMOs doesn't necessarily mean you have to sacrifice originality. (God I'm using that word a lot!) Having a fully functional AH takes nothing away from FFXIV. Especially if used in tandem with the market wards. Having a clean neat PC UI that follows MMO traditional standards, there's nothing wrong with that. Again, I don't think most would argue that the UI is pretty fail. I actually play with my 360 controller for windows and the UI still seems clunky to me. I've mastered switching between the 3 rows of abilities I can equip but it's a pain in the ass. I only 'like' (Read: Tolerate) it because I've managed to memorize how many button presses it takes to get to any given ability on any given row. And I'll never try to use the mouse and keyboard with this interface. I've got enough to stress me out already.

I guess my point is, one of SE's major flaws in my opinion is that they're too afraid to borrow commonly accepted and mind you, successful concepts from other successful MMOs. I don't want a WoW carbon copy by any means and I'm all for FFXIV retaining it's own original ideas.

One prime example I can think of is from a previous thread I was viewing. Discussing the idea of adding tech trees that would allow us to transform our current classes (think of them as base classes) into advanced jobs. And with the basic idea of a tech tree people talked about sphere grids, materia and license boards in place of traditional tech trees. Don't fool yourself, all those forms of progression are nothing but unique takes on traditional ideas. That's what I think SE needs to focus on.

My point being, there's no harm in borrowing from traditional ideas as long as it's not a copy/paste situation. I would love to see the return of Paladins and Dark Knights, White and black mages, Dragoons and all the classic Final Fantasy classes. Does this mean they have to be exact copies of FFXI? Absolutely not. I loved Vana'diel and I loved the jobs I played in that world but Eorzea is not Vana'diel, nor is it Ivalice, Spira or Gaia. I'd love to see a new take on these traditional classes and an evolution of sorts.

So as long as it's done with care to the series and with care within the world they've created, I'm all for it.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

These numbers are what led me to believe that nobody liked the stuff in the first place, but then I waltz in to the appropriate threads here, and to my surprise, plenty of people(at least those who have posted) enjoy things like the aforementioned combat and such.

Keep in mind that all those results are the combined percentages of all regions. If you look at the combined numbers for each region separately, then things aren't so obviously unanimous. There's still a wide margin of people who don't agree on all the issues you're presenting. Using those polls won't give you the best picture for that reason and several others.

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I'm not really sure you understand how this works.

You pretty much just contradicted yourself here. Of course that when you walk into the "appropriate" threads, people will be praising certain parts about FFXIV's gameplay. Those threads are made BY that 6.6% that like combat, FOR that 6.6%. You are not going to find more people that dislike combat than people who like combat, in a topic praising combat; and vice versa.

The polls are pretty much the best, most unbiased, and definitive statement on what's the status of the game; because the polled population has a gigantic sample size and is representative of the ENTIRE USERBASE. There is no better picture than those polls. Certainly not doing fuzzy counting on how many topics you saw about how "combat is awesome".

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I'm not really sure you understand how this works.

You pretty much just contradicted yourself here. Of course that when you walk into the "appropriate" threads, people will be praising certain parts about FFXIV's gameplay. Those threads are made BY that 6.6% that like combat, FOR that 6.6%. You are not going to find more people that dislike combat than people who like combat, in a topic praising combat; and vice versa.

The polls are pretty much the best, most unbiased, and definitive statement on what's the status of the game; because the polled population has a gigantic sample size and is representative of the ENTIRE USERBASE. There is no better picture than those polls. Certainly not doing fuzzy counting on how many topics you saw about how "combat is awesome".

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I haven't been walking into any threads titled "petition for no auto-attack", that's for sure.

There also is a much better tool to use than polls, and that's actually talking to people instead of getting non-descriptive multiple choice or true/false style questions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

I haven't been walking into any threads titled "petition for no auto-attack", that's for sure.

There also is a much better tool to use than polls, and that's actually talking to people instead of getting non-descriptive multiple choice or true/false style questions.

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That's not a better tool.

I can't believe you're saying that polls with a gigantic sample size and PURPOSELY NON-LOADED questions are more biased than a person going on a forum, reading "appropriate" topics, and mentally tallying up the differences in opinions.

Are you trolling me?