Bards cant hear their own songs or voice?

As the title suggests, when are we gonna be able to get our own buffs? Am I to believe all bards are deaf and cant hear their own songs? Or their own Battle Voice?

I do hope SE notices how totally backwards and stupid this is.....

Without taking any kind of balance into consideration - especially when eyeballing our counterparts (MCH), it would be nice. However, when has this game stood by the theme of keeping things as realistic as possible?

If my latest headgear (the head bandage) is to be believed - realistically - I'm blind. How am I hitting my targets?

Music being played when playing on your flute would be nice too... It's a little upsetting that they got rid of our old sound effects for songs and then just had us start pretending to play instruments.

Disregarding balance, I'd argue that as a bard, you're there to inspire your comrades not so much yourself. This is why I don't have a problem with bard songs not affecting the bard. Battle voice however perhaps should.

Remember, it wasn't even there at launch of 4.0 that we could hear troubadour.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_RSIiJ4Chvg.../Cacofonix.png

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Originally Posted by Chrallmal

Without taking any kind of balance into consideration - especially when eyeballing our counterparts (MCH), it would be nice. However, when has this game stood by the theme of keeping things as realistic as possible?

If my latest headgear (the head bandage) is to be believed - realistically - I'm blind. How am I hitting my targets?

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'See' Toph from Airbender.
Also yshtola is blind but can see peoples aether now.

Let's be honest, through all the utility bard brings to not get your own DH buff from BV is a kick in the balls

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Originally Posted by Enyalios

I do hope SE notices how totally backwards and stupid this is.....

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While it means that you'd be pressing 1 fewer button in solo combat, nothing else about this is necessarily backwards nor stupid. You can either lose proportionate potency from the rest of your toolkit, or benefit from your own songs. Balance will be the goal either way. You just need to decide whether you want 100% song uptime (even prior to WM being available) to further be a requirement for your full DPS (e.g. balanced around it, and penalizing any form of song saving, along with Bard during leveling, prior to having all 3 songs).

Take Brotherhood for example. If Monk was balanced around receiving the damage buff itself, it would simply be harder to time it appropriately as not to waste stacks, given that you'd have the same very rigid windows placed around it, then, as any other damage-modifying CD. Sure, now you use it in solo content, too, but it's only more annoying in group content, and your DPS, ideally, goes unchanged (having simply taken from somewhere else).

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Originally Posted by Enyalios

Wait... what? How would having the direct hit buff stop you from having song uptime?

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Read again. I said that if you had the crit and direct hit buffs, you would be balanced around... having the crit and direct hit buffs, i.e. your DPS would be further dependent on Battle Voice. It's irrelevant to your actual throughput. The only change would be that your DPS has additional dependencies. At present, BV can always be popped whenever it would best aid the party; you are irrelevant to that, and thus a bit more freedom in how to deploy it. At present, you are not effectively losing 3% crit whenever you do not have a song active (e.g. saving it briefly during a dungeon run for when you can actually reel in the multi-DoT rewards, or when you're still leveling and don't have all three). Gaining effects for an ability and losing effects from the absence of an ability are just two sides of the same coin. One is simply dependent on the skill, for better or worse, increasing depth and reducing leniency. Whether that improves gameplay will depend on the ability, its surrounding toolkit, and likely on player preference.

It is not, however, an issue of throughput until such time as development decides that Bard is undertuned *and* that more general ways of buffing the class would be too powerful or otherwise undesirable.

Wait... what? How would having the direct hit buff stop you from having song uptime?

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Originally Posted by Irisdina_Wiloh

Disregarding balance, I'd argue that as a bard, you're there to inspire your comrades not so much yourself. This is why I don't have a problem with bard songs not affecting the bard. Battle voice however perhaps should.

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i agree, you hear your own song of course. but they are your words and your tunes. you are there to demoralize your enemies and inspire your allies. a bard that inspires themselves would just sound arrogant

*bard looks in mirror* "your the greatest, ya that's right. no one else compares. what you hear a machines complaining again? they are just mad that they can't be as cool as you." *winks with cocky smile*

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Originally Posted by Enyalios

Wait... what? How would having the direct hit buff stop you from having song uptime?

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That's not what they meant - the part about song uptime was that benefitting from your own buffs from songs means that to maximize DPS you could never let a song drop, which is mostly how it is now but would be an even more important requirement.

The rest is pointing out that if we benefit from the 2% crit buff and the DH buff from BV, then we'd likely be balanced around that and have other things nerfed (likely potency of skills so individually they don't hit as hard) to compensate.

Basically gaining the 2% crit buff and the DH buff from BV wouldn't put as ahead of where we are now.

I would rather that being with another Bard that our abilities stack... Even if we don't benefit, shouldnt the group benefit from 2?

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Originally Posted by Enyalios

As the title suggests, when are we gonna be able to get our own buffs? Am I to believe all bards are deaf and cant hear their own songs? Or their own Battle Voice?

I do hope SE notices how totally backwards and stupid this is.....

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Personnally I find it weird to be hyped by our own song. When a bard sing it's usually to hype the others, not himself.

Bards are tone deaf, they inspire their allies to kill the enemy faster to get them to stop singing.

To be fair if we're being realistic, then bards should not be able to really attack or do anything else if it requires an instrument, unless you think you can play a flute/ harp while running around and (accurately) fire arrows.

While we're being realistic, Bard attacks should have a relatively high miss rate and lower damage the further you are from your target, especially so if you're moving and attacking, also have a limited amount of shots, need to craft or buy arrows and can only carry a limited amount.

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Originally Posted by Crimson_Hunter

To be fair if we're being realistic

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Could go the other "realistic" route and that the initial instrument use is to establish the pitch/get the notes right, and the rest is the Bard singing a capella as they fire arrows (which, incidentally, matches with the established lore, that Bards were born out of archers who began to sing to bolster the comrades and deal with the death of those around them in battle as they had to keep their eyes on the field no matter what and so could basically see the horror of battle more clearly).

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Originally Posted by Enyalios

As the title suggests, when are we gonna be able to get our own buffs? Am I to believe all bards are deaf and cant hear their own songs? Or their own Battle Voice?

I do hope SE notices how totally backwards and stupid this is.....

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We probably won't ever benefit from our own 2% crit buffs or BV. And here's why I think that is: they took away the damage penalty from our songs when they revamped them, and I believe that was the trade-off----no more 10% decreased damage for sacrificing a 2% crit buff. And, of course, BV won't hit us because BV can only affect those who are under the effect of our songs.

Personally, I would much rather sacrifice these buffs instead of incurring a 10% decreased damage penalty again every time I sang. The job of a BRD is to support the party, and I think it makes sense that our songs only affect party members. Even without our own buffs, BRD is still doing extremely well in terms of personal DPS. I would much rather we stay as is, than benefit from a measly 2% and take nerfs elsewhere.

Sounds like you want an XI feature. Do missing singing in XI.

The job of the bard is not to support the party, it's to contribute as a DPS like every other role. We queue as a DPS, having our crit buff and DH makes sense. It's like a dragoon not getting litany

I think it's less that and more you're being way too hard on yourself and it's not having an effect. SE needs to patch some self worth into you guys, we all think you're great, you should too! D:

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Originally Posted by Enyalios

The job of the bard is not to support the party, it's to contribute as a DPS like every other role

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Bard is and has always been a support-type DPS job in FFXIV. Yes, we contribute to DPS, but our main role, especially in a static-like environment, has always been to support our party members. Before it was Mage's/Army's for MP/TP refresh, Foe's to up caster DPS, Battle Voice to augment song's effects, Warden's Paeon for WAR's Pacification. Now our songs buff party members, Troubadour gives added support/defensive effects to them (and us, as of 4.01), Nature's Minne is a 20%/15 second healing buff for a tank. Refresh and Tactician replace Mage's/Army's and Palisade is a defensive buff for tanks. Bard is a support-based DPS role, and always has been in FFXIV.

If we benefited from the 2% crit buff (and, by that, BV when used), SE would take away from us elsewhere for the sake of balance. I'd rather not take a 10% damage reduction in exchange for a 2% buff to my crit rate. Bad BRDs before were already terrible about NOT singing because of the damage reduction. If they added that back in as a way to balance out us benefiting from our own crit/direct hit buffs, you would be sure to see people go back to being Silent Bards.

They can hear the Troubadour songs why not Battle Voice and their actual songs?

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Originally Posted by Enyalios

The job of the bard is not to support the party, it's to contribute as a DPS like every other role. We queue as a DPS, having our crit buff and DH makes sense. It's like a dragoon not getting litany

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...Wat. Have you not seen all their new set? It screams support lmao.
They are a support DPS even moreso thanks to the amazing rework of Bard in SB.
Giving us ALL this will make Bard OP and MCH would be placed even lower in love scale.
I don't understand your Dragoon and Bard thing, Dragoon doesn't give all these utilities like bard.
We need to be talking about MCH and it's garbo DPS. Let's not get greedy with how Bard works right now, it's near perfect.
Lest you want us to be penalized again about singing and killing our DPS. :^)

Sooo dragoon is a support now too? It gives litany, has goad, gives piercing buff.

Why can we not simply have things as they are plus the crit buff and DH. Why on earth do the songs need to have negative effects as a trade off? Where has that ever been implied? No having them won't cause too much of a DPS gain to require nerfs elsewhere.

P.S there's no support role in ffxiv, you queue as a DPS

Oh I love forums btw, it's why I read them. You get the OP who has an idea and the only people who respond are negative know it alls ;)

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Originally Posted by Enyalios

Sooo dragoon is a support now too? It gives litany, has goad, gives piercing buff.

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By that logic, WAR/NIN/SAM are all "support" as well, because they give slashing debuffs, which do NOT benefit an entire party, only certain jobs. Compare that to BRD, our songs/BV benefit an ENTIRE party (save ourselves). A DRG's piercing debuff benefits them, BRDs, and MCHs, but will not benefit a MNK, NIN, SAM or a PLD. And none of these debuffs (slashing, piercing, blunt) benefit casters.

(Btw, Disembowel got nerfed in Stormblood from 10% to 5%.)

Battle Litany is a buff, yes, but a DRG has never had the support potential BRD has had since ARR Launch. And with the launch of Stormblood, BRD is even more of a support-based job now more than ever. If the addition of Nature's Minne and the cross-role Refresh, Tactician, and Palisade fail to show you that, then I don't know what to tell you. Goad is a role ability now shared among all melee DPS (formerly, it was only something NINs had), but that doesn't make them a support-type job like BRD. No job is on-par with current BRD when it comes to support; not even poor MCH, who is in desperate need of some TLC from SE.

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Why can we not simply have things as they are plus the crit buff and DH. Why on earth do the songs need to have negative effects as a trade off? Where has that ever been implied? No having them won't cause too much of a DPS gain to require nerfs elsewhere.

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For balance. If the developers have shown anything over the course of this game's lifetime, it's that "Where SE giveth, SE also taketh away." No job is allowed to have amazing support capabilities and be OP (which, a BRD benefiting from its own song buffs--2% crit and BV Direct Hit--while maintaining the power it has now--which is very good given that we are fully mobile again--and having amazing support utility, would be considered OP). Just look at MNK pre-SB. Raw damage, virtually no support (outside of Mantra). Look at SAM. Raw damage, absolutely no support (and this was the developer's intentional design, stated as such by them in a Live Letter).

A fun fact: when ARR launched, BRD was the strongest DPS out of all of them. SE nerfed them hard after 2.0 because of BRDs free mobility; it was considered too OP for them to have the damage potential they used to have coupled with the ability to move whenever they pleased. That is the trade-off: free mobility for lower personal damage.

While there were aspects of DRG and NIN in HW that were considered "support" or "static utility," note how neither did as much raw damage as, say, a MNK, who had virtually no support/utility (this is taking into consideration that the DRG, NIN, and MNK would all be equally geared and skilled players). SE will not allow jobs to have incredible support while maintaining high damage (again, see BRD 2.0 nerf). There will always be a trade-off somewhere.

To expand on your Battle Litany example, yes, it buffs the DRG and nearby party members, but at the cost of a 180 second cooldown. BRD songs, with proper rotation, have a virtual 100% uptime. It would be "OP" for BRDs to consistently have their own 2% crit buff and 15% Battle Voice Direct Hit buff 100% of the time. Inb4 you say that BV has the same cooldown as Litany, therefore BRDs should be able to benefit from that: BV only affects party members who are under the effect of Mage's Ballad, Army's Paeon, or the Wanderer's Minuet. To give BRDs the Battle Voice buff would be to give them the song buffs as well. Again, OP.

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P.S there's no support role in ffxiv, you queue as a DPS

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Bard is a support-type DPS job, as is its fellow ranged DPS MCH (although to a lesser extent). If you fail to see that the job of a BRD (and MCH) has always been to support its party members, then you haven't been playing BRD correctly at all.

Taken from the Stormblood Bard Job Guide: "The word "bard" ordinarily puts folk in mind of those itinerant minstrels, fair of voice and nimble of finger, who earn their coin performing in taverns and the halls of great lords. Few know, however, that bards in fact trace their origins back to the bowmen of eld, who sang in the heat of battle to fortify the spirits of their companions."

You sir are a mong who cannot sense sarcasm. Thank you for showing the world how really special you are /clap :)

FYI, to say it isn't a support doesn't mean I don't use the tools available to me. But to say it is t a support is also true because this isn't ffxi and we're not spoony bards from FF4

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Originally Posted by Enyalios

You sir are a mong who cannot sense sarcasm. Thank you for showing the world how really special you are /clap :)

FYI, to say it isn't a support doesn't mean I don't use the tools available to me. But to say it is t a support is also true because this isn't ffxi and we're not spoony bards from FF4

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No, because you're having a hard time for some odd reason understanding why BRD is the way it is.
Then have a tude when we are trying to explain to you and Hyo's explanation hit the nail on the head, 100%.
As seen here:

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Originally Posted by Enyalios

Oh I love forums btw, it's why I read them. You get the OP who has an idea and the only people who respond are negative know it alls ;)

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So yeah.

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Originally Posted by Enyalios

You sir are a mong who cannot sense sarcasm. Thank you for showing the world how really special you are /clap :)

FYI, to say it isn't a support doesn't mean I don't use the tools available to me. But to say it is t a support is also true because this isn't ffxi and we're not spoony bards from FF4

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This is textual conversation. Tone isn't the easiest to infer from text.
At least I don't resort to name-calling. .-. Have a good day, sir.

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Originally Posted by Enyalios

The job of the bard is not to support the party, it's to contribute as a DPS like every other role. We queue as a DPS, having our crit buff and DH makes sense. It's like a dragoon not getting litany.

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Note that other jobs similarly do not benefit from their own effects. Divine Veil, Brotherhood, and the old Battle Voice are all raid buffs that do not benefit the caster. Similarly, there are many buffs that cannot be self-cast, only allied-cast. It's not like this is without precedent.

Apparently SE decided that they wanted Battle Litany to be usable in solo play and to be balanced between personal and raid consideration (e.g. one might pop it earlier or later to maximize raid damage than they otherwise would to maximize personal damage). They decided Battle Voice need not be. Simple as that. Your throughput is unaffected either way; unless SE directly intends to buff Bard, what they'd give by making that CD and those effects part of your personal rotation or multipliers as well, they would take from other potencies.

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Originally Posted by Irisdina_Wiloh

Disregarding balance, I'd argue that as a bard, you're there to inspire your comrades not so much yourself. This is why I don't have a problem with bard songs not affecting the bard. Battle voice however perhaps should.

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And you actually have a mechanic to increase your own crit rate already.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Note that other jobs similarly do not benefit from their own effects. Divine Veil, Brotherhood, and the old Battle Voice are all raid buffs that do not benefit the caster. Similarly, there are many buffs that cannot be self-cast, only allied-cast. It's not like this is without precedent.

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brotherhood helps the monk too

divine veil yeah but makes sense , paladin are all about protecting the weak and whatnot ....

battle voice needs to buff the bard too period , isnt gamebreaking at all and like the OP said , the bard sing the song to inspire every party memeber him/herself included :/

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

battle voice needs to buff the bard too period , isnt gamebreaking at all and like the OP said , the bard sing the song to inspire every party memeber him/herself included :/

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It's not about being game breaking or not, it's about the particular balance the developers want.

By asking for us to benefit from BV, what you're basically asking for is for us to be able to do more damage. If we are underperforming based on the target range the developers want us in, then such a change could be something they might do.

From most discussions I've seen, however, Bard isn't underperforming based on the damage and offensive utility they bring to the group (which ideally is balanced, or you end up with a job that always get sidelined)...which means asking for us to be affected by BV is in effect asking us to trade damage/benefits from somewhere else to get that benefit instead...

Which basically results in Bard not gaining or losing anything overall.

Bards do benefit from their own songs. They just get different benefits from party members.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

Brotherhood helps the monk too.

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Not directly. It only helps it through the portion of the effects specifically meant to benefit from allies. The damage buff does not apply to the Monk him/herself.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

battle voice needs to buff the bard too period , isnt gamebreaking at all and like the OP said , the bard sing the song to inspire every party memeber him/herself included :/

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Not gamebreaking is hardly a reason for balance changes. Battle Voice has never affected the Bard. That could change and no one would care per se, but balance shifts on collections of minutia. Moreover, it would probably already be part of the Bard's personal DPS balance if SE felt Bard was better off for it. They haven't. So one ability becomes worthless in solo play (i.e. you already receive its throughput without having to use it). That doesn't make it any less useful elsewhere. If and when Bard comes to feel undertuned, this may well be a slight adjustment they go with, as most would prefer to see all their skills useful regardless of party participation or size. But it's no requirement. There's no paradox, no insanity, in simply leaving Battle Voice raid only. It's been that way since ARR's release, after all.

Battle voice absolutely did effect the bard. You wanted TP faster? BV paean....

This whole mindset that bard must do less damage because they bring utility is bull crap and needs to go away, We're a DPS much like every other class. Scraping the bottom of the barrel for DPS is becoming silly and needs to end. It's not a balancing act of "how much do I buff the rest of the raid vs my own DPS" this is why dragoon is in such a bad place. They give them some utility and crap all over their DPS. Plus the benefits of the majority of 4 man content is rather slim to nothing!

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Originally Posted by Enyalios

Battle voice absolutely did effect the bard. You wanted TP faster? BV paean....

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Battle Voice only ever boosted the songs for the other members of your party. A Paeon with BV for the Bard was the same as a Paeon without it for the Bard before Stormblood launched, and that hasn't changed.

It doesn't help that some of the ability descriptions aren't as consistent as they should be - some that are party members and not self specifically say "Party members/All Party members" while others that can be used on any party member including self also say "All Party members" or just "Party members or pet" or "Party members or self." You kind of have to test them out...which is incidentally how players back when the game launched discovered that BV didn't buff songs for the Bard, just other party members.

Also, the utility impacting DPS is because if you had DPS equal to even those without utility, why would anyone ever take someone who didn't bring the utility?

The answer? You wouldn't, you'd be crazy not to take the DPS that brought both high DPS and high utility over the one that just brought high DPS. It's long been a concept, and is a known concept applied to this particular job - that's what a Bard is in this game, part archer and part support, which is why it gets higher utility at the cost of personal DPS.

You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

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Originally Posted by Enyalios

Battle voice absolutely did effect the bard. You wanted TP faster? BV paean....

This whole mindset that bard must do less damage because they bring utility is bull crap and needs to go away, We're a DPS much like every other class. Scraping the bottom of the barrel for DPS is becoming silly and needs to end. It's not a balancing act of "how much do I buff the rest of the raid vs my own DPS" this is why dragoon is in such a bad place. They give them some utility and crap all over their DPS. Plus the benefits of the majority of 4 man content is rather slim to nothing!

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Long version because I always have a lot to say (tl;dr version below spoiler tab):

Battle Voice never augmented songs for the bard that was singing them. The fact that Battle Voice continues to not affect the bard that used it isn't a new thing introduced with Stormblood.

And actually, bards did less damage than most other jobs (well, used to, that is; we fair pretty well now) because of their high mobility. That was their primary reason for doing less overall damage; second was because they were primarily a support-type role, i.e., not a job like BLM or MNK or SAM where there is mostly raw damage/big-dick numbers and minuscule party-wide support. In all actuality, a lot of people are calling for RDM to be nerfed because of it's high mobility, followed by it's ease of play and support capabilites; it's considered "too OP" as it is right now.

It was already established by SE that if bards were going to be fully mobile, they needed to sacrifice some of their personal DPS for the sake of balance. When Heavensward launched, bards lost their mobility, and, in turn, gained a permanent 30% damage increase to all their actions (the original Wanderer's Minuet), although the skill itself took a bit of tuning after it was introduced to not be so clunky. I think most bards were pleasantly surprised to see that, in Stormblood, we still retained quite a bit of power with the return of our full mobility, even though a few of our abilities were adjusted and nerfed, probably as a way to balance the job (Bloodletter was nerfed from 150 potency to 130; Raging Strikes, while given a shorter cooldown, was reduced from 20% damage increase to 10%), and then others we lost completely, (damage from Repelling Shot, Blunt Arrow, Hawk's Eye and our other offensive oGCDs, and forever RIP our Flaming Arrow fire circle...oh, and Wide Volley). Sitting here imagining Stormblood bard with all the skills and offensive buffs we had in Heavensward PLUS our new abilities...we would be so insanely OP everyone would be making "Pls nerf BRD" thread instead of "Pls nerf SAM" or "Pls nerf RDM."

Like another poster said, bards do get benefits from our songs; they just differ from the party's benefits. Like with Army's Paeon: for each Repertoire stack, we get a 4% haste buff, stackable up to 16%. No one else in the party gets that haste buff. Mage's Ballad has our River of Blood trait, and the new Wanderer's Minuet is basically what contains a lot of our burst for our opener (a 3-stack Pitch Perfect is 420 potency).

You entitled to voice your opinions. Regardless of what you think, however, there has to be a balance. If all jobs brought insane support capabilities and insane DPS, then there would be no balance at all with regards to party composition or even content. And you say we "scrape the bottom of the barrel" and that SE has "crapped all over our DPS," but bard is in a really good spot now in terms of DPS despite some of the things we lost from Heavensward bard. They were in a good spot at the end of Heavensward, too, with some of the highest parses in Savage content belonging to bards and also machinists. Try as you might, there will always be someone on the bottom, much like there will always be someone on top.

With regards to DRG, I don't play the job that often, but I know a few people who do, and I don't think they think DRG's DPS took a hit because of the added "support" they got (Dragon Sight, or Lord of the Dragon, or whatever it's called). Again, though, I can't really speak for DRGs, but there are a lot of jobs right now that need balancing and agjusting. SMN has some support-type ability (Devotion, I think it's called), but that's definitely not what has the job in such a weird spot right now. Same thing for poor MCH.

Believe it or not, serious progression groups pick jobs with the support utility that bard has because it helps them with their progression. Only a fool wouldn't take a job that has the support bard has into a serious savage raid environment, and really, that goes for if any job had the support bard has.

Bard is fine just as it is now; a lot of people think so. Even I think so, and I was one of the few bards who actually played all through Heavensward with the old Minuet, and didn't care too much about the cast times I had. And like Shurrikhan and I have both said, if SE were to decide that bards were to get the benefits of the 2% crit buff each song gives, and also receive the 15% Direct Hit increase Battle Voice gives, they would take away elsewhere because of balance. Like Berethos said: You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

tl;dr version:

Battle Voice never affected the bard using it.

Bard's DPS was always lower due to their free mobility, not just because they had so much party utility.

Bards are not "scrapping the bottom of the barrel" in terms of DPS. We are actually fairly very well off right now, despite being fully mobile again. Serious progression groups will always favor a job with good DPS and good support over a job that is just raw damage with nothing to benefit the group/progression, and even the HW speed-kill meta had 2 support-type DPS jobs in it (bard and machinist).

The issues with DRG and other jobs probably have very little to do with them being given a tiny bit of support, and more to do with poor job balancing and design choices on the developers' part.

There always has to be balancing when it comes to jobs in this game. Can't have your cake and eat it, too.

And, if the "benefits of the majority of 4-man content are rather slim to nothing," then why are you arguing so hard for a buff that bards are doing well without?

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Originally Posted by Enyalios

Battle voice absolutely did effect the bard. You wanted TP faster? BV paean....

This whole mindset that bard must do less damage because they bring utility is bull crap and needs to go away, We're a DPS much like every other class. Scraping the bottom of the barrel for DPS is becoming silly and needs to end. It's not a balancing act of "how much do I buff the rest of the raid vs my own DPS" this is why dragoon is in such a bad place. They give them some utility and crap all over their DPS. Plus the benefits of the majority of 4 man content is rather slim to nothing!

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As a BRd main,

Brds are not bottom of the barrel DPS, we're fucking in a perfect spot atm. Perfectly balanced.
DRGs aren't in a shit spot because they have support skills, it's because they're under powered.