Silly tank melds

It seems like every tank i come across has tenacity melds. To this I have two questions. What are you smoking? And can i have some?

Wasn't it proven that stacking 1k-1.5k tenacity results in 5% less damage recieved and 5% more damage dealt or something like that? Not exactly stellar but far from worthless.

It's like there's a horde of people following the direct hit bandwagon, because someone said it was good, and they decide to mock everyone who does otherwise.
Not everyone is a sheep (for better or worse).


Tenacity isn't the go-to for DPS, but it's far from worthless. Nor do I see how stacking the ONE stat is beneficial to anything other than the ego that goes with saying "I did -this- much damage (as a tank)".

I have a mix-up of melds including tenacity, crit, sksp and direct hit, and I'm waiting on the live letter to tell us what changes they have coming for tanks. I don't see how you belittling someone's choices of meld makes you any better. This isn't parry we are talking about.

If a player want to be MT for the rest of his raiding life for savage I don't see a problem with him going full vit accessory with tenacity meld I am sure their healer will love him more then any tank out there it's like a mini rampart trait that is on for the entire fight and healing received to me this is pretty neat and it will increase as we get better gear in the future

What is the point of this thread other than for you to sound like a smart ass jerk?

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

Tenacity isn't the go-to for DPS, but it's far from worthless.

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Actually, for a dps, it is worthless. Tenacity doesn't give anything unless you're a tank.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Actually, for a dps, it is worthless. Tenacity doesn't give anything unless you're a tank.

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You're misunderstanding. They are referring to a tank's DPS.

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Originally Posted by Valinis

You're misunderstanding. They are referring to a tank's DPS.

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Tanks? DPSing?

Square here with patch 4.05. We've removed Tenacity because it was giving tanks more damage. That's a nono. Instead it's replaced by this new stat, that does basically nothing. You probably won't notice.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Tanks? DPSing?

Square here with patch 4.05. We've removed Tenacity because it was giving tanks more damage. That's a nono. Instead it's replaced by this new stat, that does basically nothing. You probably won't notice.

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Think she referring to tank dps as in tank who think their dps matters or those who care really much for their dps as a tank

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

Think she referring to tank dps as in tank who think their dps matters or those who care really much for their dps as a tank

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I'm just making a joke how Square hates tank dps.

Don't mind me. Please.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

I'm just making a joke how Square hates tank dps.

Don't mind me. Please.

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I know it's stupid when I wear full i270 str accessory and still able to MT susano and deal almost the same dps of a mch it's funny

Tenacity is actually not that bad. Det is roughly 1% damage per 200. So say Tenacity is 5% at 1500, Det would be 7% but attack only, whereas Tenacity is 5% damage and 5% damage down.

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

It's like there's a horde of people following the direct hit bandwagon, because someone said it was good, and they decide to mock everyone who does otherwise.
Not everyone is a sheep (for better or worse).

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http://i.imgur.com/PvPPfZp.png

:D

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Tanks? DPSing?

Square here with patch 4.05. We've removed Tenacity because it was giving tanks more damage. That's a nono. Instead it's replaced by this new stat, that does basically nothing. You probably won't notice.

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4.05, Tenacity now boosts aggro! Rejoice!

Fair enough. But the point I'm trying to make is you can either be tanky and do good dps (DH melds), or you can be tanky and do shit dps (sks/ten/det melds). So why would you want the latter lol. I wasn't trying to bring 270 accessories into this thread either that shits gona be obsolete in a week anyway. I wear 320 fending acc. With str melds myself. But theres a reason why theres a DH on tanks "bandwagon" lmao because its obv the best to increase ur dps. And anyone who says tank/healer dps doesnt matter in a dps centric game is smoking grass haha. I dont pay ppls subs so they can min/max their chars like crap if they want. I guess this was more ment to be a psa :))))

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

4.5, Tenacity now boosts aggro! Rejoice!

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You mean I can stay in sword oath forever now?

No one expects the PLD spell speed melds! Watch in awe as I holy spirit and clemency slightly faster than other PLDs! Lmfao.

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Originally Posted by Hitsuzen

No one expects the PLD spell speed melds! Watch in awe as I holy spirit and clemency slightly faster than other PLDs! Lmfao.

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Spell speed? PIETY melds, new META!!!

I meld Control on everything. As the MT that's where I should be, in control.

Just remember... no matter what you do, don't be different. Even if what you do works and doesn't significantly change much of anything in normal content, if you're not doing the exact same thing everyone else is doing you're wrong and you're bad... Everything needs to be done like you're doing it in Savage raiding or GTFO. /s&s (sarcasm and salt)

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

I know it's stupid when I wear full i270 str accessory and still able to MT susano and deal almost the same dps of a mch it's funny

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Not to the MCH it isn't!

Be part of the meta
Be part of the meta
Be part of the meta

You must conform
You must fall in line

Be part of the meta

Until they show/buff tenacity, its not really worth it. whats 5% less dmg taken (rough guess, even though its below 2%, statst seems to be as useless as parry) when you can potentially do +20%dmg every 5 hit (hard guess) and help with *sigh* keeping enmity?

Not against tanks being tank, but there's a limit to not doing research and doing whats best for your character.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Be part of the meta
Be part of the meta
Be part of the meta

You must conform
You must fall in line

Be part of the meta

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This would be better if you had the Sable Death Mask on in your picture there.

Because you guys don't seem to realize that very, very few people in the population of this game bother to even look up their ideal stats, let alone what each point of a stat does. They play the game and see tenacity does what it says it does for tanks, and assumes thats a good thing to pick up. They're unaware that they might gain more from other stats in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

This would be better if you had the Sable Death Mask on in your picture there.

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When you're right, you're right.

its not 5%. That would be much better then it is now (2% give or take). But alot of tanks have tenacity builds in there materia because the stat wieghts where not out and pre xpac it seemed like tenacity was going to be the go too. More dps and more def seemed great. Ufortunantly the scaling wasnt to what the player base was looking for. But then again if it was it might have been too strong. After its been out a bit there will be changes. But for now DHit on the left side str/vit (pending accessories and availabilty) on the right side is what u should be going for

This has to be the only game I've ever played where people not only knowingly make bad decisions, be it melds, accessories, choosing only to heal, only using ice spells, etc... but are actively hostile and stubborn when its pointed out to them.

Not to say I defend op either, he also came off as needlessly hostile.

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Originally Posted by Velthice

choosing only to heal

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Sometimes, depending on how confident I am in my abilities(newer dungeon/long time of not healing), I may choose to just heal as I don't want to risk letting people die due to DPSing when over long. Or because I can't quite focus enough to be able to do both(out of game issues usually).

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Originally Posted by Velthice

This has to be the only game I've ever played where people not only knowingly make bad decisions, be it melds, accessories, choosing only to heal, only using ice spells, etc... but are actively hostile and stubborn when its pointed out to them.

Not to say I defend op either, he also came off as needlessly hostile.

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It is a bit weird, yeah. There's a big streak of "I do what I want" in the NA playerbase here. If stat weights showed that Direct Hit really is the best stat, there will be people avoiding it at all costs just because they hate the idea of playing optimally.

It's a weird subculture, and it's STRONG here. RoH only PLD's that never leave Shield Oath. Ice Mages. Monks who "prefer Fists of Wind". There are a lot of players here who firmly want to play their own way, and party effectiveness can burn for all they care.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Sometimes, depending on how confident I am in my abilities(newer dungeon/long time of not healing), I may choose to just heal as I don't want to risk letting people die due to DPSing when over long. Or because I can't quite focus enough to be able to do both(out of game issues usually).

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That's totally cool, I'd never advocate going full throttle with it from the get go. You should be comfortable and confident with the content first.

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Originally Posted by Velthice

This has to be the only game I've ever played where people not only knowingly make bad decisions, be it melds, accessories, choosing only to heal, only using ice spells, etc... but are actively hostile and stubborn when its pointed out to them.

Not to say I defend op either, he also came off as needlessly hostile.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

It is a bit weird, yeah. There's a big streak of "I do what I want" in the NA playerbase here. If stat weights showed that Direct Hit really is the best stat, there will be people avoiding it at all costs just because they hate the idea of playing optimally.

It's a weird subculture, and it's STRONG here. RoH only PLD's that never leave Shield Oath. Ice Mages. Monks who "prefer Fists of Wind". There are a lot of players here who firmly want to play their own way, and party effectiveness can burn for all they care.

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Okay, so I'm going to focus on a particular phrase here that gets thrown out a lot in these kinds of conversations: "playing optimally"

What does this particular phrase often boil down to? Typically it's, "How high is your DPS number?" This means pretty much everything you do in the game boils down to a single measurable value that is then used to determine your competency at a particular role or job. The problem with this is that there are a myriad of other factors that come into play when doing content that should be considered and many times that comes down not just to your own skill level but the skill level of the people you are playing with.

There are 2 general scenarios you can consider here, the first of which is what many people tend to default to: playing in a group with the same people as a static where everyone knows what each other is capable of and what they can do in terms of their role. When you are playing under this scenario you can justify expecting the optimal scenarios that the optimal setups and strategies require. Now, the fact of the matter is that for the vast majority of content, in order to complete it successfully, you don't need the absolute optimal performance. The trouble is that so many people view even a slight variance from this ideal as directly negatively impacting them. Are there instances where someone is doing an absolutely terrible job at their role? Yes, but that doesn't meant not being 100% optimal all the time is bad either.

The second scenario, and the much more common one for people to deal with, is running content with PUGs. In a PUG it is generally the case that you have no idea how good or bad the other players will be. Likely you've never played with them before, likely you will never play with them again. You don't know as the MT if the healer is going to preemptively shield or regen you before the tank buster. You don't know that the OT is going to shirk onto you so you can tank in DPS stance. You don't know if a DPS is going to mind their aggro meter to help assist a tank in DPS stance not need to use Halone or other things to maintain them enmity.

Once again, not all content is high-end, Savage raiding. The vast majority of content isn't going to be affected by a 100-200 DPS decrease from the tank. It may take a few minutes longer, but generally you won't wipe unless the tank is just demonstrably bad and can't maintain aggro or doesn't even try holding more than 1 mob. Optimal builds, optimal strategies are effective and efficient only in optimal scenarios. The chances of finding yourself in an optimal scenario in a PUG is abysmally low.

TL;DR: Optimal circumstances generally don't happen in PUGs, so you can't count on them happening. Doing what works to get you through content despite being not entirely optimal is better than your being optimal and your group failing because they can't keep up or adapt to the situation.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

TL;DR: Optimal circumstances generally don't happen in PUGs, so you can't count on them happening. Doing what works to get you through content despite being not entirely optimal is better than your being optimal and your group failing because they can't keep up or adapt to the situation.

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Snip for length.

I absolutely agree, but that's a different conversation. We're not talking about choosing suboptimal play because of party deficiencies. We're more referring to willful ignorance: actively choosing suboptimal play without a good reason to do so.

To be fair, a new person who has no idea what is what and melds full on tenacity is still in better shape than people who melded full parry, or no melds at all. Tenacity is bounds better than parry but is in the same boat as skill speed in that it's not really worth melding (for tanks).

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Snip for length.

I absolutely agree, but that's a different conversation. We're not talking about choosing suboptimal play because of party deficiencies. We're more referring to willful ignorance: actively choosing suboptimal play without a good reason to do so.

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I understand that. My comment was meant to address the specific term of "optimal play" in how it is most often used, which is typically regardless of circumstance.

For the specfic conversation in how it relates to melds, I think there's 2 issues that SE has when it comes to that- 1) Role specific stats should, by default, be of greater benefit to that role than any other stat which currently is not the case. 2) The way in which those stats affect your abilities and, hence, your DPS is needlessly obscured and the effects of stats are mathematical "best guesses" by the community that need to be derived through testing.

If role specific stats made any sense in that they're actually really important to that role (such as direct hit) and the effect they have on your abilities were more readily available for people to know then there wouldn't be as much of a problem with them.

Screw it, I'll out myself.

I meld Strength in my right side equips and mostly Tenacity in my left side and weapons. Because Tenacity means I take less damage, which is what I'm going for as a tank. I'm not going to say "HURRDURR YOU TO MELD THIS WAY" because you don't have to play as I do; you may favor higher personal DPS, and that is fine. But I spit on the mentality that I HAVE to have Strength 270 accessories, I HAVE to have Direct Hit melded onto my gear, I HAVE to play the meta.

Your fun ends where others begins. For content such as dungeons and even to an extent EX primals, you have some leeway and if you want to be a forever shield oath paladin or a fist of wind monk, you can probably get away with it and no one will really mind.

But if we're wiping to enrage and your creative playstyle is a factor leading to that, then something has to give.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

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So not doing, what, 100 more DPS a second is going to wipe a raid? And that doesn't indicate that there is something else wrong with the raid?

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

So not doing, what, 100 more DPS a second is going to wipe a raid? And that doesn't indicate that there is something else wrong with the raid?

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You're giving the options over Tenacity too much credit. Left side has slots to hold 520 points. In otherwise identical gear, the difference between a full Direct Hit tank (157 points per 1% DPS) and a full Tenacity tank (180 points per 1% DPS) is .5% DPS. You'll see a gap of 10-15 DPS between the two at most.

I'm not even sure why this is such a hotly contested issue. Do I personally wish that there was strength on my accessories, that my attacks hit harder? Of course I do. But if it means sacrificing my own tankiness, then that's not a trade-off I personally like.

If I were an absolute cutting edge raider, if I were in a highly competitive static, then yes, these melding issues would be something I would be involved with. But most players aren't. Hell, most players aren't in statics, and many who are will try to meld to their static's personal playstyle. And getting worked up about that fact is just a waste of time and sanity.