...wait, I just did a post on Summoner, why does Black Mage need adjustment?
The answer is... it SORT OF doesn't, but... then you start looking at its paradigm, and the way it's built versus Red Mage and its intended melee contemporary, Samurai.
Let's get one thing out of the way. As it stands, Black Mage's damage, while considerable and indeed higher than Red Mage's isn't enough to justify its lack of utility. Sure, I spent a lot of time whinging about Summoner's lack of damage in the other topic, but let's just go over some things.
Black Mage AOE is perfectly fine. That's all I need to say. No need for adjustment, it is far more powerful than its counterparts in Red Mage and Summoner. As much as I'd like SMN to be able to catch up for AoE, Black Mage would be fine at least keeping this. Flare didn't need the dropoff nerf, though. Moving on.
Black Mage lacks power for its lack of mobility. This is technically a trapping of both casters and healers, but with Red Mage having it mitigated with Dualcast, and Summoner having mostly DoTs and Ruin II, Black Mage is in a strange place where its melee counterpart not only performs better than it, but also has less flaws. To improve this, I propose that Black Mage has their single target damage improved. In fact, I would dare say that either Fire IV and Blizzard IV ought to be buffed to a whopping 300 (technically 594 after Astral Fire III and Enochian for Fire IV) potency, Thunder III have a boosted potency, or the addition of Astral Fire IV, for a full 2x damage boost. Astral Fire IV seems like the more balanced adjustment, since it would put Fire IV at a practical 572 instead of 594, but it would still be an enhancement. Umbral Ice IV could simply allow instant cast for Fire III. Also, it wouldn't hurt if Thunder III was treated as an ability when players are affected by Thundercloud, so it wouldn't disrupt our Fire rotation. With that said, Foul could also do with a slight boost, depending on Astral Fire or Umbral Ice, with Astral Fire giving a damage over time effect and Umbral Ice giving it 50 potency per stack, or the other way round.
Why Black Mage Needs (a teensy bit of) Help
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07-11-2017, 02:35 PMEllieShadeflareWhy Black Mage Needs (a teensy bit of) Help
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07-11-2017, 02:48 PMAge_of_Oblivion
BLM also desperately needs som QoL adjustments. One more second on AF/UI duration, and roughly 800 more mana at cap. It's not fair that I have to fight the server tick rate as well as the content.
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07-11-2017, 02:54 PMLelila38
And we didn't even start about the broken Umbral Heart mechanic.
If our old 3.x rotation yields more dps than doing a rotation with our shiny new toys, something is seriously wrong. -
07-11-2017, 02:59 PMEllieShadeflareI feel like the Umbral Hearts are actually perfectly fine. We essentially get our old opener 24-7, without needing to use Convert, but Fire IV could use a buff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lelila38
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07-11-2017, 03:38 PMNoxLumina
Yesterday I killed a SussieEX dummy faster using Stormblood opener into A Realm Reborn rotation + Foul (yes, no Fire IV after the opener)) than I did using a full Stormblood rotation.
I'd say they need more than a teensy bit of help.
Not to mention the flat DPS increase when I just do the Heavensward rotation but replace Blizzard IV with foul.
Blizzard IV is a DPS loss as it stands. -
07-11-2017, 03:45 PMEllieShadeflare#thathappenedQuote:
Originally Posted by NoxLumina
So... using Blizzard IV to get additional Fire IVs alongside Foul is a DPS loss... somehow?Quote:
Originally Posted by NoxLumina
I mean, if you're only using the HW rotation, you're actually at a DPS loss, especially versus the actual HW potencies. Besides, your HW rotation already has Blizzard IV, and it only costs 2.3-2.4 seconds to cast Foul, why not just bite the bullet and do that for the additional fire IVs? -
07-11-2017, 03:49 PMsoslinky
@EllieShadeflare
Check this thread out, it sums up why 3.0>4.0.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ers-on-4.0-BLM -
07-11-2017, 03:54 PMNoxLumina
Do you want a video :U
I should add at this point though, that I killed the dummy with SB rotation once and it was pretty bad try and I tried multiple times to get that quicker kill with the 2.0 rotation.
Dummy runs on a normal dummy (which my statics RDM had to parse cuz PS4, yay) came out around 4.1k as opposed to 4.3-4.5k with the SB rota.
Considering the inevitable MP tick fuckery and the fact that you'll have to move and drop Fire IVs in actual fights it might be that doing the HW or ARR rotation will actually yield a better outcome for a BLM right now. -
07-11-2017, 03:56 PMEllieShadeflare
I would like a video, because it makes about as much sense as conspiracy theories. My general experience is that my damage, beyond the lower potency of Fire IV and Blizzard IV, is much higher per 30s than HW.
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07-11-2017, 04:05 PMNoxLumina
View edit in last post. I will be home in about 7 hours then Ian try to crap out another atrocity like that.
I shit you not when I tell you that happened though.
It's not like the ARR rotation is more effective on a dummy I think it's like 9% weaker or something. But that's enough to actually come out higher if you luck out on procs and had a bad run with the SB rotation before that.
They screwed up BLM. Doing a 3 year old rotation shouldn't be that effective. -
07-11-2017, 04:19 PMLelila38
2.x rotation aside, which is only a small dps loss in movement heavy situations, I've experienced myself that the F4-F4-F1-F4-F4 rotation from HW days does more dps than the new SB rotation with Umbral Hearts (for whatever reason). Also if you look at Fflogs, the top Blms all use B4 and UH exclusively for their openers.
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07-11-2017, 04:19 PMEllieShadeflare
Okay, but what's your set up? I'm on a crit 1578, speed 1897, and direct hit at 1042.
3.x got me to 14% and 4.x got me to 6% (with fumbles) on Susano EX Stone Sky Sea. -
07-11-2017, 04:29 PMNoxLumina
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07-11-2017, 04:29 PMLelila38
I should add in an actual fight. On paper 4.0 should be better, more F4=more dps, however if you cannot fit in 6 F4 for each B4, which in an actual fight you can't, it's a dps loss.
I haven't tested these rotations on dummies, as I'm in PS4 and we still got no way of seeing our numbers, but several other people have posted their results in the thread linked a few posts before.
On Susano Ex, I had a friend parse me and I did higher numbers using B4 only for opener. -
07-11-2017, 04:31 PMEllieShadeflareYup, only about 1400 spell speed. I can see the problem there.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoxLumina
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07-11-2017, 04:32 PMTheFanciestBard
I feel like their damage for mobility isn't that bad, considering with smart usage of AM and Between the Lines alongside rescue your actual effective downtime will be fairly low. Course BLM does still, imo, fill the niche of "Greedy dps" which means it should bring that level of damage as well since its utility is fairly lacking. I'm also going to test 4.0 vs 3.0 vs 3.0 opener into 2.0 real quick and will get back with the numbers. I'm 312, Susano wep, lak accs, so I've cleared the content already as blm. Only 1039 spellspeed tho, big bummer but w/e, it's my off class so I'm not focused on melding it yet. Testing was done on Susano SSS. I don't claim to be an amazing blm btw lol.
4.0 - Didn't clear, had 3% remaining.
3.0 - Cleared with 9 seconds remaining.
3.0 opener into 2.0 rotation - Didn't clear, had ~4-5% remaining.
The potency is not far enough to actually make the difference between fire 1 and fire 4 significant. Like... Yeah, 5-10% is kinda significant but you effectively gain the difference in procs, as I've seen with running the 2.0 rotation on dummies. So what we can gather is that 2.0 rotation allows blm to play a pseduo rdm playstyle with procs helping to enable movement while also nuking relatively hard. 3.0 allows us to have fairly high dps in exchange for not moving. 4.0 rotation has no redeeming qualities at present. This is naturally due to the potency nerfs of both Fire and Blizzard 4.
Keep in mind I did not clip procs once on 4.0, it was as perfect as it can get outside of sharpcast utilization but in the essence of being fair I didn't use sharpcast for 3.0 and used it for 2.0 when I could since it's child's play to work sharpcast into 2.0. -
07-11-2017, 04:32 PMEllieShadeflareFight SSS, and take a note of either how much time is left or how much percentage is left. That's how I figured mine out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lelila38
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07-11-2017, 04:34 PMLelila38I don't like SSS, it's a dummy fight and has absolutely no relevance for the actual fight imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare
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07-11-2017, 04:43 PMKarjaSince TC and Firestarter procs are flat out better than a F4, I can see a world in where a lucky 2.0 rotations outperforms a unlucky 4.0 rotation. You also have to account for Crit or Direct hit crit on Fouls.Quote:
Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare
Fire 129.6 pps
Fire 4 156 pps
Firestarter 172.8 pps
TC initial hit is 156 pps even without a single tick it's the same pps as Fire 4 but you keep the dot rolling. -
07-11-2017, 04:59 PMNoxLuminaNo problem there outside of Square screwing up.Quote:
Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare
I remember near the end of Heavensward when a friend and I tried turning me into a spell Gatling. Damage started falling off at some point.
No crits ever and low damage from lack of any Determination. Fun stuff.
Edit: Oooh you're violently stacking Spell speed disregarding item level. -
07-11-2017, 05:19 PMEllieShadeflare
Of course I use my centurio seals that I'd basically have no other use but spend on Materia VI, and of course I'd use it on Quicktongue where I can, since it has one of the highest weights for casters. Unless, of course, you mean ignoring the 310-320, because I'm not gonna ignore that juicy 200+speed on the Genji coat and pants. I just need more tokens, is all.
Besides, Materia VI can make up for most gaps in stats, so there's that.
Edit: Wait, I didn't even get much in materia for quicktongue. I guess I just chose gear with high speed, and holding out for the omega gear with its juicy speed? -
07-11-2017, 05:28 PMsoslinkyQuote:
Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare
The 4.0 rotation would perform better on a dummy. That much is true. The point of concern is the DPS you lose from missing a cast of F4 due to movement which leads to the 4.0 rotation performing less DPS. I highly recommend you experience it yourself on Susano EX. Parse a few runs on 4.0 then proceed with 3.0. You should be netting an increase in DPS.
My experience with 4.0 vs 3.0 is that upon switching to 3.0, I was able to increase my average DPS by 200 on that fight. -
07-11-2017, 05:32 PMKarja
He's talking about the fact that you are using i300 items and especially the i300 weapon. No idea if you did Lakshmi and Susano but secondaries are not worth dropping 20 ilv on a weapon or even on a armor.
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07-11-2017, 05:43 PMEllieShadeflareAlas, I don't play the game 24-7, so I don't exactly have the freedom of getting the bestest gear quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karja
I will be getting my Verity weapon after my next Omega run, which does have plenty of Spell Speed, and has 310 ilvl, so it's not like I'm deliberately crippling myself. -
07-11-2017, 05:45 PMEllieShadeflareCan't parse on PS4, though there may be a point to mobility, but that's essentially the only reason to use the 3.x rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by soslinky
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07-11-2017, 05:50 PMsoslinkyIs the additional 200 DPS and mobility not a good enough reason to prefer 3.0 over 4.0 rotation? :(Quote:
Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare
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07-11-2017, 05:51 PMNoxLumina
I'm not playing 24/7, I'm not that bored :V
I've been occasionally punching dummies and lamenting what SMN and BLM have become though.
SMN makes me sad it's so unfun to play v.v -
07-11-2017, 05:53 PMsoslinkyThat Eirene Snow person is having fun on SMN. I'm actually thinking of leveling SMN after reading her thoughts on the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoxLumina
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07-11-2017, 05:59 PMNezia
And people wonder why there are so many RDMs...
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07-11-2017, 06:05 PMNoxLuminaYeeaa so I was told. But it's.. weird.Quote:
Originally Posted by soslinky
I refuse to continue playing RDM out of spite at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezia
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07-12-2017, 12:45 AMJonnycbadYou'll get more mana from gear that has piety on it in future patches, I'm sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Age_of_Oblivion
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07-12-2017, 01:16 AMAge_of_OblivionQuote:
Originally Posted by NoxLumina
Same here. It just feels... dirty. -
07-13-2017, 12:41 PMEllieShadeflare
So a friend I trust, with a parser, parsed out the damage for Black Mage and apparently yes, Black Mage hits harder with the old rotation.
Good job, YoshiP. You messed up your own favorite class.
Hell, it's not like the job NEEDS that much to fix!
Maybe give us a proper haste buff when we cast Blizzard IV, to make the additional Fire IVs worth our while.
Maybe eliminate the recast time for Thunder/Thunder II/Thunder III/Thunder IV when we get Thundercloud, so we can weave it like a true oGCD.
Maybe increase our potency back to 280 or even 300.
Literally do ANYTHING to emphasize our need for big booms without punishing us beyond our cast bars! -
07-14-2017, 12:59 AMThelaSince when does caster gear come with piety on it? Correct answer is never :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonnycbad
But yes you know something went wrong in the design when the 3.x and even 2.x pending firestarter luck yields more dps than the 4.0 rotation in movement situations (which is every encounter not a dummy) -
07-14-2017, 01:17 AMWalielI once did a 10min test of both rotations. 6xF4: 93 F4 casts, 4xF4: 87 F4 casts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lelila38
I find RDM extremely boring. I'd rather put SCH on /follow and watch the fairy solo heal bore-rak.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoxLumina
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07-14-2017, 01:19 AMSacerdos
I think the simplest way to explain it, is that right now B4 is only optimal for extending one AF phase every ~90s to sync the foul clock with your UI phase. Once UI and Foul are in sync, B4 is a dps loss - you cast Foul in UI and your mana is capped to go back to AF without needing to B4.