So this is PvP now?

I've been gone since 2.x-ish and just came back. Did a few Frontlines and "Wolves Den" and I have to say I am mortified to discover it's been completely gutted and reduced to aimless whack-a-mole with no rewards. There is no challenge and it became boring once I discovered how the games go after the first few, because they're all the same. I actually find it pretty condescending because we get absolutely nothing in return after the effort spent in getting it. Glamour gear is not a reward and is an end that does not justify the means.

I was going to write more, but I deleted it all and figured what's the point? Everything has already been discussed in other posts and it ain't like SE is going to say, "Hey Pink's right, let's recode the game", but as a customer, I am disappointed in the direction they chose to go with it. It was really the only thing that kept me semi-interested in this game and I thought I could come back to it as a side activity, guess not. In essence, PvP has been politically correctly removed from the game. SAD.

/end rant

Wow .... you are legit not alone . I came back after two years and as an avid pvper I question why am i looking forward to just pve and cringe at pvp in its current state. I think it was rude ( may be dramatic) to consolidate skills and on top that REMOVE skills that were the essence of why we even played that specific job in the first place. Pvp was dumbed down. Save dumbing down for PvE content if you had to choose such an ideology.PvP In general should be a unique .innovative , BALANCED , and a competitive experience I will say the idea of more than one skill to one button is amazing KEEP THAT... But let US be the ones who choose what we want to insert on that consolidated button.This idea of projecting their vision of what they feel is necessary and not necessary on MY job is so wrong and inconsiderate. In short I hHOPEEEEEEEEEEE they are listening to the community of PvPers because majority of us are NOT about it.

Ranked will be there for any kind of reward but I guess that's it. Admittedly, probably not going to be the most enjoyable season.

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Originally Posted by Gor

I am mortified to discover it's been completely gutted and reduced to aimless whack-a-mole with no rewards.

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Pretty much my feelings when I play DPS. Now I turned WHM despite being bad at healing just because at least you have only a few more tools compared to DPS.

I used to have a variety of ways that I could save my teammates as an Astrologian: Lightspeed heals while running, Swift Blizzard II for melee peel, Celestial Opposition for large group/ranged peel, or heck, if the situation was right, Attunement bait the enemy's burst while my ally pulls ahead.

Now I basically have two options: heal them, and heal them harder. Deorbit is a nice idea in theory but thanks to XIV's lulzy net code it's pretty bad in practice. Disable isn't bad at burst prevention but does nothing when you need to save an ally being chased 1v5. And Malefic III's crappy slow vs Stone IV's heavy and Broil's MP/TP drain is just wut-levels of bad. You'd be better of spending that global on a heal every time.

At this stage of the game they have to implement some type of change seeing how there is just such an unpleasant rift occurring among us as a community. It actually makes me quite sad to NOW hear that from a astrologian (loreleidiangelo) that you are reduced to just prioritizing the heal i justtttttt decided to make one...but at this point i feel like its more eventful to just heal a mob of people now aimlessly running into the heat of battle playing wack a mole....

Glamour is the true end game. And I think of it as a nice reward personally.

I go into PvP for random fun. Just like I play any multiplayer game.

While the nerfs may be boring for now, it was a good way to balance the game as well. I would think its a very good base now to expand off of.

As for me, its a blast to mash a button for my combo, even if I had to sacrifice a few abilities on the way. It's brought in more new blood, and thats a fantastic thing. With higher numbers, they may give more consideration in improving that side of the game, as small as that side is.

Lol i think glamour being end game just goes with out saying... we all like to look a specific way. But in regard to pvp ... I think most of us do not view this as balance... it feels like someone went into the doctors office for a common cold and came out with an arm amputated. Its a huge shift... the actual " problem", if there ever really was one, wasn't addressed lol. Maybe it was " we want those who play PvE to feel welcomed in the PvP arena..." but that distracts from what pvp has always been about which is an uncontrolled, competitive and unique realm... and this version of PvP is is soulless .

Then ill vouch to say maybe not majority but SOME of us like the button consolidation. That was a great idea however it would be even more amazing to give us back the majority of our skills and give us the chance to configure our own consolidated button/ buttons OURSELVESfor both pvp and pve. hoping for the best for this amazing game though

I'm an avid PVPer and I like the button consolidation, though I think the actual problem here is with the skill / trait selection. If we had perhaps more choices and more IMPORTANT choices of skills that could actually influence a 'build' of sorts that made our characters and the way we played fun and unique it would be better. Having less skills is better, but having game defining decisions to make is what makes PVP fun. We don't have that in our rotations - such is the nature of the game created. But we could have these choices in our selected traits and skills.

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Originally Posted by Tsuole

I'm an avid PVPer and I like the button consolidation, though I think the actual problem here is with the skill / trait selection. If we had perhaps more choices and more IMPORTANT choices of skills that could actually influence a 'build' of sorts that made our characters and the way we played fun and unique it would be better. Having less skills is better, but having game defining decisions to make is what makes PVP fun. We don't have that in our rotations - such is the nature of the game created. But we could have these choices in our selected traits and skills.

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Yup pretty much what we are all saying! I have faith that itll pick up though whats a game with out a few changes here and there right hahah? it will make us appreciate when they actually get it right... what ever looking right looks like haha

I'm a whm... and nothing is more boring then PvP Whm

Stone is my only attack. I have no aoe spells anymore (holy/medica/aero iii are out).

I have assize, cure, stone, and two near useless single target reduction abilities.

I'd rather be a Sam hopelessly trying to chase brds around

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Originally Posted by Keramory

I have assize, cure, stone, and two near useless single target reduction abilities.

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Whm toolkit is actually the best one out of the 3 healers at the current state, nearly useless skills not at all, stonekin mitigates and divine benison is a shield, both have no mp cost and a decent whm use these 2 skills wisely, theyre not panic buttons.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

I'm a whm... and nothing is more boring then PvP Whm

Stone is my only attack. I have no aoe spells anymore (holy/medica/aero iii are out).

I have assize, cure, stone, and two near useless single target reduction abilities.

I'd rather be a Sam hopelessly trying to chase brds around

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How can you think Divine Benison and Protect are useless at all?

Maybe just me being salty...but until they change how melees can reliably build resources without being gunned down to death, this game's pvp is at best a side distraction. Range jobs in 4.0 has no cast time, no distance penalty, etc, while melees (esp. NIN) have a bunch of skills locked behind resources that can only be built when engaged in melee. Idk, give them a way to build chakra/ninki/etc on the spot at a cost of tp/mp.

@Keramory, you're playing one of the best healing jobs in the game right now, the only reason the other two healers exist is because SCH has broil :P

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Originally Posted by AriaFairchild

SNIP.

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IDK about Nin, but I haven't had problems getting resources as SAM or regenning TP (don't forget to trait it if this is an issue for you or you don't have an AST in your team to feed you spires); if you tunnel vision then you're probably going to get smoked. 8s is a mess, you have maybe a few seconds to burst something then you need to find a healer to hug. Better off just peeling or hitting over-extended melee.

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Originally Posted by Gor

damn

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rip, shiii

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

@Keramory, you're playing one of the best healing jobs in the game right now, the only reason the other two healers exist is because SCH has broil :P


IDK about Nin, but I haven't had problems getting resources as SAM or regenning TP (don't forget to trait it if this is an issue for you or you don't have an AST in your team to feed you spires); if you tunnel vision then you're probably going to get smoked. 8s is a mess, you have maybe a few seconds to burst something then you need to find a healer to hug. Better off just peeling or hitting over-extended melee.

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Exactly. Don't you think that an entire role being pigeonholed into one single game mode is a rather poor design?

It's not nearly as fun to heal as a SCH anymore. I feel their was so many options for different ways I could heal and keep the party alive depending on the situation like rouse+whispering dawn+attunement but now it's pretty boring it's pretty much just 1 button over and over

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Originally Posted by AriaFairchild

Exactly. Don't you think that an entire role being pigeonholed into one single game mode is a rather poor design?

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The melee role here functions the same in other MMOs, if you facesmash into people you're probably going to die. Concept works the same on shatter, hit people that are on your side of the ice, don't venture over to the other side and start trying to rush healers. The same way a caster should be at max range to deal with their over-extended melee.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

if you facesmash into people you're probably going to die. Concept works the same on shatter, hit people that are on your side of the ice, don't venture over to the other side and start trying to rush healers.

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This triggers me. Melee and tanks overextend all the time but there is nothing I can do about it because I can't talk to them to tell them to fall back. I try to keep everyone alive but jokers who keep running chin first into the fray trying to attack their healers every 60 seconds almost get me killed because I get pulled too close to enemy lines just trying to heal them. Once I start getting attacked, I just let them die and the whole team suffers.

Please melee stop doing this. I don't care how badass you think you are, you will never solo the other sides healer.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

The melee role here functions the same in other MMOs, if you facesmash into people you're probably going to die. Concept works the same on shatter, hit people that are on your side of the ice, don't venture over to the other side and start trying to rush healers. The same way a caster should be at max range to deal with their over-extended melee.

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You mean to tell me that melees in other MMOs have:

• no defensive CDs...
• no stealth...
• no CC-immunities...
• no shadowstep...
• no reliable CCs...
• etc.

that enable them to reliably approach and survive the engagement for 5s? A group of melees engaging a group of range in this game is always stressful: nobody dares to go up first, because we are defenseless against them - you don't even need to facesmash to get killed - you get picked off at max range and die.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

The melee role here functions the same in other MMOs, if you facesmash into people you're probably going to die. Concept works the same on shatter, hit people that are on your side of the ice, don't venture over to the other side and start trying to rush healers. The same way a caster should be at max range to deal with their over-extended melee.

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Originally Posted by AriaFairchild

that enable them to reliably approach and survive the engagement for 5s? A group of melees engaging a group of range in this game is always stressful: nobody dares to go up first, because we are defenseless against them - you don't even need to facesmash to get killed - you get picked off at max range and die.

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So ok, it was 8v8, but a few days ago, I ran against a comp full range (at least I think 2 BLM that were coordinated), our group was full melee + me as healer. I'm far from being the greatest healer in PvP, but I actually knew who was going to take the damage 1st and got prepared in consequence. Guess what, that was litterally unhealable, our team got rekt in no time without having the slightest chance to get close.

I used to play melee a lot but I don't consider poking enemies with a 750 pot skills, then just standing on crystal waiting for a low health target to KS is something fun. Survivability is needed as melee for a good reason in those kind of modes.

Never been a great Fan of pvp, i rarely played more than 10 matches while leveling before Stormblood. Im rather new to the game, but yeah. If my opinion has any meaning,im with you. Its boring. You are limited to max 10 Skills...where my normal Scholar has a palette full of Thing. I Understand the balance issues...but no,not this way. Did 3 Matches in Stormblood,with different classes,but cant get a hang of it.

PVP was overly simplified. The only change worthwhile and effective to pvp was to consolidate combos. Aside from that, all the other skills should be available. Lv70 pve is not a 9button game. Once again, pvp was overly simplified; as an avid pvper and paying customer, I am quite unhappy with this change and will not be playing or paying.

What really gets me is when someone would say "the old PvP had too many buttons"

. . . You mean those same ones you had in PvE content plus like 6 PvP skills, not all of which were always useful (depending on your job)?

Sure, there were some skills that just weren't all that useful in one or the other, and ironically most of the "useless" PvE skills were highly useful in PvP, but beyond that, it was the same kit you were used to at max level. The difference was how it was used. And unfortunately, where many cound play their job right in PvE, having to relearn it for PvP proved "too hard".

As a bitter thought, maybe PvP didn't need the complete overhaul if there was more effort on SE's part to properly explain how PvP actually worked.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

I'm a whm... and nothing is more boring then PvP Whm

Stone is my only attack. I have no aoe spells anymore (holy/medica/aero iii are out).

I have assize, cure, stone, and two near useless single target reduction abilities.

I'd rather be a Sam hopelessly trying to chase brds around

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Wait, what? Divine Benison is godly in PvP. 25% mitigation based on the target's max HP, on a 20s cooldown with the potential to reduce it to 10%? If you seriously believe that bad, you have no business playing WHM.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

What really gets me is when someone would say "the old PvP had too many buttons"

. . . You mean those same ones you had in PvE content plus like 6 PvP skills, not all of which were always useful (depending on your job)?

Sure, there were some skills that just weren't all that useful in one or the other, and ironically most of the "useless" PvE skills were highly useful in PvP, but beyond that, it was the same kit you were used to at max level. The difference was how it was used. And unfortunately, where many cound play their job right in PvE, having to relearn it for PvP proved "too hard".

As a bitter thought, maybe PvP didn't need the complete overhaul if there was more effort on SE's part to properly explain how PvP actually worked.

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I disagree. There is something to be said about less being more. It wasn't that all those abilities were necessarily difficult, they were simply cumbersome. I had macros to switch around abilities on my hotbars because I didn't have the space otherwise. I'm also someone who prefers most of their abilities on the mouse. I ran out of buttons on a mouse with over 24 of them. Did they scale it back too much? Maybe. But the sheer amount we once had was silly.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Wait, what? Divine Benison is godly in PvP. 25% mitigation based on the target's max HP, on a 20s cooldown with the potential to reduce it to 10%? If you seriously believe that bad, you have no business playing WHM.

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Divine benison is a shield, works differently from mitigation, protect is mitigation, divine benison cooldwon goes from 20secs to 10secs depending on number of lilies when used and yes it is really strong, as i wrote on other threads whm has all the things u would want from a support.

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Originally Posted by Mirch

Divine benison is a shield, works differently from mitigation, protect is mitigation, divine benison cooldwon goes from 20secs to 10secs depending on number of lilies when used and yes it is really strong, as i wrote on other threads whm has all the things u would want from a support.

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That's arguing semantics. Mitigation, in the context I used it, means to prevent incoming damage, which Divine Benison does. And I'm aware of the Lily requirement hence why I said potentially. Regardless, the point still stands. WHM has a fantastic arsenal. So...

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I disagree. There is something to be said about less being more. It wasn't that all those abilities were necessarily difficult, they were simply cumbersome. I had macros to switch around abilities on my hotbars because I didn't have the space otherwise. I'm also someone who prefers most of their abilities on the mouse. I ran out of buttons on a mouse with over 24 of them. Did they scale it back too much? Maybe. But the sheer amount we once had was silly.

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So, how do you play PvE content then? Were you not using the same hotbars? None of your PvP skills were automatically added to your bar. Nothing was changed unless you set it up yourself. And personally speaking, on MCH (a job plenty of people claimed had too many buttons/was too confusing to play) I had many redundant skills on my second hotbar, so I actually could've saved enough space to maybe not even need the third hotbar I made just for PvP (again with even MORE redundancies).

Further backing up my point, I did some digging and found old screens that had my hotbars in them, I made a little graphic explaining my PvP one as well:

Hotbar 1, entirely unchanged from PvE
http://i64.tinypic.com/iykfgn.jpg

Hotbar 2, entirely unchanged from PvE
http://i65.tinypic.com/2hz7akh.jpg
I can't think of a time I ever really used Grenado Shot, and Split, Slug and Clean were already on hotbar 1. Everything else was used regularly.

Hotbar 3, and this image speaks for itself:
http://i67.tinypic.com/ayt0jr.jpg
I forgot to note on there the unmarked macro was to turn off Blood for Blood, a skill I didn't use too often anyways because it was a telegraph that you were gonna burst.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

So, how do you play PvE content then? Were you not using the same hotbars? None of your PvP skills were automatically added to your bar. Nothing was changed unless you set it up yourself. And personally speaking, on MCH (a job plenty of people claimed had too many buttons/was too confusing to play) I had many redundant skills on my second hotbar, so I actually could've saved enough space to maybe not even need the third hotbar I made just for PvP (again with even MORE redundancies).

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I was squeezing out the last bit of space on certain jobs. Dark Knight, for instance, had very little room. Same for Dragoon. There's a reason skill consolidation wasn't exclusively done to PvP after all. Regardless, I did say I managed with hotbar switch macros to drop redundant or useless abilities going from PvE to PvP. That didn't make it any less annoying. I have always thought the PvP only skills were silly when we retained everything we already had. They either should have made PvP only changes to existing abilities or separate the two entirely. They chose the later. I have some criticisms to the new system, but I prefer it to the alternative, especially because they can now make adjustments without worrying about PvE balance issues.

I never played DRK in PvP, but I can definitely say I had room to spare on hotbar 2 with DRG, even AFTER adding my PvP skills.

You really can't sell me on the "too many buttons" point.

TBH, I can understand in a certain measure the complains about that some jobs required lots of spaces compared to other. I myself play on controller, I played MCH a lot and I didn't have much troubles with that, SE gave us lots of tools to be able to play on controller. I admit that regarding accessibility, it can feel a bit clunky for some people. However, They should actually have done the same kind of skill reduction as they did in PvE, even if it's a bit less. But 11 skills is a joke really.

11 skills, no CC, no crit, and no pets (for the most part) for pet classes. Yeah. They kinda overdid the simplification.

It's still fun, but I remember what it was, and I enjoyed that too.

"if you facesmash into people you're probably going to die. Concept works the same on shatter, hit people that are on your side of the ice, don't venture over to the other side and start trying to rush healers.
This triggers me. Melee and tanks overextend all the time but there is nothing I can do about it because I can't talk to them to tell them to fall back"

HAHAH yea i think that most definitely triggers us all.... I guess thats their way of having fun these days. Sigh im really hoping they take another look into pvp... i try to make it more interesting with calling out the predictions of crystals and what not but my Good ness i feel like im hangin on by a thread and breathing through a straw hahaha

Too much waiting times for the new pvp season, and all these bad change from 4.0 make me feel that Square Enix doesn't want anymore people in PVP :P

Reading all this stuff...I feel like I'm the only one who actually likes and enjoys this change. I do have PvP experience as well and played before the big over haul. I actually just recently jumped in with the introduction of the GARO event when it first dropped. I was always intimidated by PvP and wanted to try it but the long que times "prior to GARO" would be so long that I would either say forget it, or I would be scarred that so much time had passed that it might actually pop "it never did". Once GARO came out I decided, screw it I'm gonna TRY. I went online watched a few videos on youtube, saw mr. happy's video on telling the pros to realize lots of newer people will be trying, that calmed me. After a bit of research I qued up for a ranked match "not realizing it was ranked". When we got in I told my team "this is my first time ever".

The tank was VERY supportive and said, don't worry about it you'll do great, he gave me a few pointers which I had already picked up from the videos "but the reinforcement made me feel a bit more confident" Once the gates opened we went in and I was focusing as the tank had said, playing one with the team. I'd do my burst, almost kill the target and the target would get healed right back up. The thing that was going wrong is the other DPS that was with us "not new by the way" was just going Rambo. The tank was getting SOOOO mad and telling them "damn it _____ you need to focus!"
he never responded even though the tank told him lots of times, and the healer marked the player. It almost made me wonder if I was doing something wrong since there were two different things going on at one time. Needless to say we lost

, but I felt excited, adrenaline...I hadn't felt that good on 14 in quite some time. If that tank or healer ever see this, thanks guys, and sorry for the loss! I was a nin that round. I decided not to que that way anymore as I figured out it was ranked and didn't want to mess peoples stuff up. I started queing for the right thing 8v8 and found out I was kind of decent, I got better, and would usually have good games. Later it started to switch to more good games then not, I eventually got brave enough to do the alliance PvP. That was fun too, but I was/am still in love with the feast and enjoyed the crap out of that GARO grind "took me one month, the longest part was getting our alliance to win!",

but I like our alliance...anyways when the change was announced I got excited to see new blood in the feast, to see new players, faster ques, more competition, but then I saw the cut backs. I was devastated. I mean I had just started getting into it really good. The changes finally came and I went to try PvP ignoring everything thinking to myself "I'm just gonna go in and adjust" NOPE! I got burned soooo bad lol. So, after that bad loss I went to the wolves den and tweaked around with my new PvP bars, read up on everything "so I could place it in the right areas" and qued up again. This time I was decent, I could tell it was going to get some getting used to, and I'll be honest I wasn't happy. However, after playing since then over and over I've come to accept it and also enjoy it. I'm a decent PvPer again, and I was able to pass what I

knew onto one of my buds. The thing that I did and STLL do hate "kinda" is when people que up for PvP and make our team get screwed over because they just waltz into the other team to get killed, they don't do crap, they just go afk. That actually pissis me off to where I'll mark them "just so other people can notice", but the attitude that has come over it since the easy exp has opened up. In our alliance someone was actually asking "what do we even do here? Why can't we just let the other team win and get easy exp"