Red mage, samurai, black mage, lets discuss balance.

Hi there,

First of all this

ok

(need more characters)

Hi there,

For some reason can\\'t edit the post.

Anyway, this is just a constructive view of balance in general, first of all I\\'m a red mage, really enjoy it, it\\'s fun.

I\\'m seeing a lot of weird hate for jobs like red mage and samurai and the common phrase is, "please nerf this it\\'s overpowered"

Now let\\'s start by saying that red mage does have a decent cure in vercure, however in dps terms (because rdm is a dps) it\\'s not overpowered, yes you can help a healer out if one goes down but your giving up dps time in order to do so. That\\'s a fair trade off.

Embolden is good and made better depending on pt composition. Embolden is strongest when with 3 physical dps, each additional caster weakens the effect. It\\'s also important to note that it decays pretty quickly so while buffs like blood for blood are s flat rate for thier duration, embolden detetiorates.

Samurai is currently showing the highest numbers. It has no utility, this doesn\\'t make the job overpowered, it has for the damage it does solo being so high it doesn\\'t provide party increases.

Black Mage... needs to be BUFFED. (I don\\'t play blm) but objectively it is the same as samurai, high solo damage, low/no raid utility. A good blm can out damage a red mage, blm does suffer if it has to move a lot, and because of this it does have self mitigation and teleports. Blm should be the hardest hitting caster.

Summoner, has some interesting stuff going on, I hear that it\\'s rotation isn\\'t very fluid and that needs to be looked at, but one of the major things I see argued is "Summoners complexity means it should be doing much more dps" difficulty is subjective and can\\'t be used as a balance tool, smn probably should do more damage, but complexity is a null point.

So basically if your job has a metric ton of utility (bard) then it\\'s going to do lower damage, if it\\'s got no utility (blm and Sam) it\\'s going to be a powerhouse.

Finally... SE machinist? You know what you need to do...

Red mage can't be a damage powerhouse and also have instant cures that scale and rez. That's the utility you're talking about.

The devs explicitly said that they designed SAM to be so powerful due to its complete lack of support utility (much to the outrage of MNKs because MNKs had virtually no utility outside of Mantra, and SE promised to fix that/not create another job with virtually no support). RDM was also advertised as being strong, but I don't think people realized how strong.

I don't think the way to fix jobs that have issues is to nerf others, because nerfing other jobs will not fix underlying issues some jobs may have (e.g., nerfing BRD is not going to fix the fustercluck that is MCH right now; nerfing AST to make SCH look better; etc.). But if the developers buff too much, everyone will be overtuned for content (prior to just blatantly out gearing it), which means the developers would need to scale the content with the buffs. But they can't make it "too hard" or people will demand nerfs (like the did for Ozma, Final Steps, and now Royal Menagerie). It's a balancing act, and I don't think the developers have quite figured it out yet.

Red mage does a lot of damage, but the reason I'm not considering vercure too much is you do have to give up gcds to use it. Now considering vercure, I believe physic should also scale off int for smn. For every cure a red mage throws out it loses dps. That's the trade off, same applies to a raise, the red Mage must stop dps to do that. For at least one gcd. Red mage has no dots either so it becomes 0% effective on any cure it throws out. Smn dots don't stop ticking, and it's pet doesn't stop attacking.

Monk, should be doing either as much damage as samurai, or slightly less, (since monk has utility(not much, but some)

Nothing should do more than Sam, I feel that's the limit.

RDM is also derp to play and is very efficient. The issue people have is with its fairly high DPS ceiling coupled with its ease of use and flexibility means that it can achieve higher DPS that classes that have higher ceilings. The reason that BRD has a low ceiling apart from utility is its efficiency which is why BRD has always preformed well in fights since its conception. RDM is as flexible as BRD pretty much but does like 15% more damage. For example: (These are extremely rough approximations but they can work as a visual aid)

Lets say - (Generic fight with mechanics and shit)

BRD DPS: 3800, efficiency: 95%, effective DPS: 3610
DRG DPS: 4050, Efficiency: 85%, effective DPS: 3443
SMN DPS: 4400, Efficiency: 80%, effective DPS: 3520
SAM DPS: 4650, Efficiency: 92%, effective DPS: 4278
RDM DPS: 4400, Efficiency: 95%, effective DPS: 4180

These are pretty much asspull numbers however this highlights why certain DPS preform so well. This isn't factoring utility or lack thereof so you start to see why classes like RDM are targeted by the community nerf bat.

I don't really care about the other classes, I just want to see MCH, DRG, SMN and BLM get addressed but example graph just shows why these new classes are seen as too good (easy to play, not affected by mechanics, high dps ceiling)

I had to drop Dragoon for red Mage for upcoming progression, and Red Mage is infinitely easier, and does more dps. Embolden is a problem in my opinion because it essentially guarantees the red Mage the caster slot, because why would you bring another caster when they won't benefit from Embolden and have less utility. Verraise is going to be immeasurably useful in progression. I was helping with a SusanoEX learning party on my red Mage, and ressurected 9 people throughout the fight and still had MP to spare by keeping Lucid on CD. I don't care if the class is nerfed or not but it should be doing the lower damage of the casters when the utility comparison is made. If that means buffing summoner and black Mage, or nerfing Red Mage is up to SE

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

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In your example, given our current data, SAM should be way higher (like 4.4k).
They have 4.6k dummy dps, and there are no-balance 4.5k dps SAMs on Susie EX.

Probably important to note at this point, I said the other casters should be buffed. I never said rdm should be top dps. I said complexity is not a means for nerfs or buffs. I personally think physic should work like vercure, and smn should do the same damage as rdm (not more because the smn would now be able to contribute healing while it's dots and pet fight

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

In your example, given our current data, SAM should be way higher (like 4.4k).
They have 4.6k dummy dps, and there are no-balance 4.5k dps SAMs on Susie EX.

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It's just an example graph, and there is no concrete way to calculate something like efficiency. That being said don't forget that no-balance only means no-balance. It doesn't mean no dragon sight, litany, battle voice, trick attack, brotherhood, embolden, devotion hell even arrows. It is clear, however, that some classes have a lot more freedom in fights as they aren't effected by mechanics as much, such examples being BRD, RDM and SAM.

The thing is, Red mage has great mobility, support utility in raise and healing AND party utility with embolden [ the fact that embolden helps EVERYONE but other casters is an especially big grain of salt in the wound considering everyone else lost Raging Strikes and embolden just feels like a bribe to get RDM to be used more as it benefits the whole party except for other casters >.>] AND on top of that has superior DPS in actual fights because of how well they can deal with mechanics. But I see people especially focusing on the support utility that they bring with their cure and raise. But the thing is, I don't think that is what people should be focusing on or using to justify anything because in an ideal run of higher end content RDM shouldn't even need to use those utilities. Those aren't the utilities I have a problem with when I compare for example RDM and BLM. [my main, can't stand SMN so I have very little insight there] From their party utility alone [embolden] they should not be pulling highest caster DPS.

Blm needs a damage buff and it needs some adjustments on it's AF/UI timers and to Transpose's cooldown. A few changes to the cooldown on Aetherial Manipulation would be wonderful too. I want it to feel rewarding for playing BLM optimally by achieving high numbers. But the way BLM is now there's little payoff for a frustrating and limiting rotation that also feels extremely fragile. I [grudgingly] think it's a positive that less committed or able BLM players are able to achieve competent numbers but I am not seeing the same being granted to people that really work hard at practising and perfecting their job. Because those are the people that get the shitty end of the stick in this situation.So when there are people really busting their butts to do everything right and they're only pulling 200-300 DPS more than someone doing a rotation from 2 years ago. Or they look the other way and see RDM pulling better numbers while also offering party buffs [That I'm not invited to partake in! XD] with great mobility and on top of that, raises and cures for those just in case moments. Considering all this, being told that it's alright because I can AoE quicker in those 3 dungeons I'm gonna be sick to death of in 2 weeks is very little comfort indeed. I don't want RDM to be nerfed, I want SMN and BLM to be satisfying to play and to be viable. I don't think the way to fix this mess is to try to justify that SMN and BLM should also get heals cuz that counts "utility" and would somehow even the playing field. If you wanna folow that logic then we should all be allowed to use one Phoenix Down each per fight.

RDM is suppose to be a jack of all trades master of none. Right now it's a master of everything. I don't play Black Mage anymore but it should defiantly be hitting way harder than it is right now.

Please keep in mind that the current Red Mages who are at max level are veterans of the game or new highly skilled players who are able to exploit the narrow skill gap of the class. The new player who's never played an MMO before or the casual player probably is still leveling right now and probably wont be at max level until the 20th of July which is about 1 month from launch.

It is never a good idea to nerf a class based on the potential of the high end when there may be evidence that lower end and mid-tier players are going to begin struggling compared to other classes if those nerfs are instituted.

With that said: For RDM specifically, it is a class where you win or you lose. There is no in-between. The mana balancing mechanic essentially forces a built in threshold where you cannot play the class as it should be played if you don't both build AND balance your colored mana. I constantly have to gimp my DPS because of transition periods. I have a 6 second window to use my heavy hitting spell (and i cannot choose to save it and use another spell in between). I understand that other classes have a similar issue, however i have found that paradoxically, the only time Red Mages are the highest DPS is when overall DPS of the group is within a certain range. Once Group DPS raises above a certain threshold, The effectiveness of the Red Mage to DPS around transitions and mechanics decreases dramatically. I am probably going to have to make a video demonstrating why this is a unique problem to the red mage due to the closeness of the skill floor and the skill ceiling.

1) Make it so that Verholy and Verflare can be casted at any time for a fixed mana cost. However this particular Verflare and VerHoly has reduced potency...say 375, and gives you a debuff that reduces mana generation for the opposite color mana until that opposite color mana is pushed above a threshold. When this normal Verholy or Verflare is casted, it consumes -all- of the corresponding mana type. So to lets say Verflare requires 40 black mana to cast. If you cast it with 100 black mana, you now have 0 black mana. It may be required to allow mana over a certain point to increase the potency, up to lets say 550 potency at 100 black mana.

2) Rename the "old" Verholy and Verflare to "Enchanted Verholy" and "Enchanted Verflare" respectively and keep them exactly the same as the current Vernukes. Make it so that once the current requirement for Verholy and Verflare are reached (After enchanted redoublement) Both Verholy and Verflare becomes Enchanted Verholy and Enchanted Verflare.

Effectively, these two changes would not change the optimum way to play the class. Obviously the damage of going through the redoublement combo -then- casting Enchanted Vernuke will, 100% of the time, be greater than a single 375 - 550 potency attack. However what this does is add a sub-optimal way to play the class that would not be a complete disaster. But this simple change would allow us to "purge" all of our mana in a single attack for reduced effect if required, and it allows room for artificially increasing the difficulty of the class.

I mentioned this earlier, but remember: The reason why Red Mages seem "easy" (and objectively speaking they are) is there is no way to be "kinda competent" at the job, similar to who a BLM or SMN can be "kinda good" without playing their class to the maximum potential.

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Originally Posted by Ralgarog

Please keep in mind that the current Red Mages who are at max level are veterans of the game or new highly skilled players who are able to exploit the narrow skill gap of the class. The new player who's never played an MMO before or the casual player probably is still leveling right now and probably wont be at max level until the 20th of July which is about 1 month from launch.

It is never a good idea to nerf a class based on the potential of the high end when there may be evidence that lower end and mid-tier players are going to begin struggling compared to other classes if those nerfs are instituted.

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Actually, you adjust game mechanics based on the top players. That's how competent design works. You have to see something being played at the absolute limit to know whether or not it does need to be adjusted, and how easily that absolute limit can be reached.

TL;DR: Red Mage seems easy (and it is) because it only requires a base competence to effectively play the class because a lot of our heavy hitting abilities are locked behind procs and combos. Even players with a low competence level would want to continue an enchanted combo to get a Vernuke instead of just letting their mana sit in place, or not picking up the extra damage from the enchanted redoublement combo. In addition to this, it must be assume that for a player to get from level 50 to max level in under 3 weeks that some base level of competence has been achieved. We are veteran players can sometime forget how long the journey from level 50 to 70 can be. Note that you don't have to be the most competent player in the world to get to level 70 as a red mage in 3 weeks, but there needs top be some base competence there and we can assume that they would also be competent enough to want to finish combos or cast -all- of their spells.

Adding in enchanted versions of the Vernukes that function as the existing ones do, and a new base version of Vernukes that function as a colored mana purge will give players who don't reach the level of competence required to master the class the opportunity to play the whole class and cast all of the spells, but as a penalty, thus significantly widening the skill gap though artificial means.

WRT BLM and SMN: I think it is always better to buff a class that needs a buff than to nerf other classes down to its level. And if a buff is going to be handed out, a nerf should not coincide with it because sometimes a 2% buff is better than a 1% buff and a 1% nerf to another class.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Actually, you adjust game mechanics based on the top players. That's how competent design works. You have to see something being played at the absolute limit to know whether or not it does need to be adjusted, and how easily that absolute limit can be reached.

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I agree with that statement; Top players will play the class the optimum way that it is meant to be played. With that said when balancing a game with this many players, mastery achieved by the top 10% of Red Mages (essentially most of the RDM at max level; the majority of Red Mages rolled wont ever make it to max level) may have some unforeseen consequences. To a top level player, it may make sense to not using Manafication immediately on some encounters and to wait until your first Vernuke on other encounters. That may not be obvious to the average Red Mage who may use it as soon as they can.

This 1000 character limit is absolutely killing me.

You bypass it with editing your post.

This is why this game needs a public test servers so they can use real feedback before things go live.

I main RDM right and also have 70SMN but won't play as SMN. Too much effort to do decent numbers.

SMN are punished SEVERELY for messing up rotation/cooldowns and punished even harder if they die. SMN utility of a 5% damage buff and reduction on the closest party member to egi needs MAJOR rework. The egis themselves need rework now, too.

I'm about to start leveling BLM and am hyped because it looks fun but will probably still go back to RDM since it's easier and vercure and verraise are so clutch.

Verraise needs to be on a 60 sec cooldown. RDM can toss instant cast raises everywhere and really change the fate of a run single handedly. I know it lowers their DPS and costs a lot of mana, but they can literally raise 7 people in 15 seconds, mana permitting.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Verraise needs to be on a 60 sec cooldown. RDM can toss instant cast raises everywhere and really change the fate of a run single handedly. I know it lowers their DPS and costs a lot of mana, but they can literally raise 7 people in 15 seconds, mana permitting.

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Yeah, if you have lucid dreaming and your whole party is dead and we have about 5000 spell speed, otherwise to raise 7 people it'd be at least 28 seconds, that's a really niche setting.

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

RDM is suppose to be a jack of all trades master of none. Right now it's a master of everything. I don't play Black Mage anymore but it should defiantly be hitting way harder than it is right now.

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The problem with this logic when applied to the paradigm of FFXIV is if you have a job that, at best, does sub-par melee, sub-par casting, and sub-par healing, when would you ever use it? In order to fit the roles of the game, they had to make it actually perform well at one of those roles, and they chose caster. Red Mage melee is terrible if its not enchanted, and while it has a cure and a raise, you're generally about as useful as a summoner in that regard since you shouldn't ever be using Vercure in a party scenario, and I only use Verraise on dead healers. (Unless I'm in voice chat with my static group and they ask me to raise someone)

I initially liked RDM until I played SAM. SAM feels like a manual transmission and RDM is an automatic. There's more gears (Kenki, Sen, combos) to work with, they have more control over their damage (storing kenki for add/burn phases for example) and I love it. That said, ever since my first Lakshmi run where we were near wipe if not for the RDM handing out rezzes like Halloween candy, I have been tempted to give RDM another go for that delicious utility.