[Suggestion] Monthly Housing Upkeep

Problem
I'm sure a lot of you are already aware of the story going around about two players who own 28 houses between them (Link to story). A lot of people see this as selfish, while others say they earned those plots fair and square and are entitled to keep them.

Suggested Solution
Instead of requesting for there to be a maximum amount of personal plots one account can own per world (which I suspect some people would start a war over), maybe it would be more practical to add a monthly upkeep cost for each house owned over a certain amount.

Upkeep Cost
The upkeep cost wouldn't have to be huge, but enough to make you continue to work to keep those extra houses. After all, if you're able to afford that many houses, it should be no problem, right? Maybe something like:

• Small houses: 50,000g/month for each extra house over 5
• Medium house: 100,000g/month for each extra house over 3
• Large house: 150,000g/month for each extra house over 2

The upkeep would be taken directly out of the character's on-hand gil at the start of each month, while a Free Company's upkeep would be taken out of their Free Company chest instead (as such, make sure only trustworthy people can withdraw gil from the Free Company chest). As such, if you plan on being away for a long time, you would need to make sure to have the required amount of gil on your character or in your Free Company chest to cover the upkeep for the months you won't be on.

Result
This won't prevent people from buying as many houses as they want, nor will it force players to relinquish houses they already own, but it will make owning a large number of them a bit costly. Over time, players may get fed up with having to constantly pay the upkeep costs for the extra houses and decide to sell them.

Repercussions
Failure to meet a month's upkeep would earn a strike on that plot. When a strike is given, the owner of the plot would be sent an email telling them the name of the character that owns the plot, the world that character is on, the ward and plot number and how many strikes it has. To remove the strike, that month's upkeep must be paid off at the next month's upkeep. If last month's overdue upkeep was met but the current month's was not, the number of strikes would remain the same. With three strikes, the house would be demolished and put back up for sale.

I'm open to (mature) feedback about why this would be a good or bad idea, suggestions to make this better, or your own suggestion to address this issue. Don't make sarcastic comments akin to "this is dumb, you're dumb", I am simply trying to find a solution to the limited housing market so all players can enjoy the content.

*Edit: There have been some good replies from people explaining why they think this is a bad idea. Using their feedback, I agree that this is a bad idea and that a better solution must be found.

That's not a bad idea actually, and it would be a decent money sink for the uber wealthy.

It sounds like a decent idea but I'm not really sure I'd like it. On top of the already existing demolish timer, we're now expecting people to pay rent - it's very punishing for people who can't play all the time. Right now if you have to leave for 45+ days (you're a service member or going on an extended vacation or whatever) you have very little recourse other than to hope you can get someone else to log in and take care of the house for you. To add a rent charge on top of that feels unfair, especially since they've already put in the work to buy the house.

I don't like the people for owning that many houses, but I don't think a monthly charge is the solution. Someone who was already rich and active enough to buy 28 houses that fast can probably afford that cost each month anyways.

So, those of us who get houses, are to be more punished?

For characters that don't have houses, can we impose a fee on them then? Like a "Well, you have to pay because everyone else has to and you're just sitting on your gil and not using it for anything currently" tax? I mean, it doesn't have to be much. On top of people paying their monthly sub, they would only have to pay like say 5% of their total gil on all retainers/person. Because they're just sitting around hording gil and not putting it back into the economy. If you want to tax those of us who have houses and already have restrictions and limitations just because you get your panties in a bunch about people putting in hard work, then those of us that have houses should be able to demand taxes and fees on those who don't have one or who are trying to save for anything.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

It sounds like a decent idea but I'm not really sure I'd like it. On top of the already existing demolish timer, we're now expecting people to pay rent -.

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I've said before now they should have a lease lease of some kind INSTEAD of the demolish timer. would be fairer all round.

Going away for a few months? you could pay 3-6 months lease up front and ya house is there when you come back. would also work for players wanting to take a break between patches (something which Yoshi said should be perfectly ok for players to do)

Obviously put a limit on it. say 180 days. to stop people paying like 10 years lease up front

Never come back? ya house is reclaimed when youre lease runs out and freed up the plot for another player..

Might also free up plots that players own but don't use. if they have to keep fronting a leese for a plot they never touch they might release it and free it up for someone else. one of the problems now is a lot of the taken plots are never used. owned by some guy that literally enters them once a month for no reason other than to reset the demo timer..

Would be a much better system all round than the stupid demo thing we've got now.

my suggestion a while back was like a housing venture, can be gotten paid for with gc seals or fc points or something like that. each one equals a weeks lease on your plot.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

it's very punishing for people who can't play all the time. Right now if you have to leave for 45+ days (you're a service member or going on an extended vacation or whatever) .

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A lease system could work for this. going away on service for 3 months. just turn in a bunch of those "housing ventures" or whatever before you go... would keep your plot secure till you return.

Or they could just....fix their housing system to prevent this kind of abuse.

while I'd be fine with this, I know players who barely clear 100k a month. They don't have crafting leveled and don't gather. They have houses but would HAVE to play more hours just to earn money to keep them, it's not really fair to those who barely afforded their houses in the first place. It kinda makes the game into a job, which is the fastest way to make it unfun for a lot of people.

I think they should just separate housing into 2 category: the personal zone & the FC zone
In the FC zone: Housing will be set in community format, like it is right now, and only FC with a set amount of active people will be able to keep their house after a certain amount of days. "Active" means generating a specific number of FC credit points via whatever activity they're doing, & it's up to SE to set a realistic amount for this.
In the personal zone, each house (including outdoor yard) is instanced rather than the current pre-existing mixed up format between FC vs personal. I think people would rather to have their house instanced so facilitate housing for everyone rather than keeping it in the community format with limited spaces like the current system.

Also, separate housing zone into different tiers: the cottage zone, the medium house zone, and the mansion zone to facilitate more people in each category. It's kind of absurd that there're only 72 mansion plots in any given server. Each server should have at least 200 FC houses in each tiers, and unlimited instanced personal houses (like the inn)

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Originally Posted by touya

So, those of us who get houses, are to be more punished?

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Paying bills is not a punishment. Is this not how owning a house in real life works? Owning a house doesn't mean you get free utilities too, you must pay for those (unless you want to live in a house with no power).

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Originally Posted by touya

For characters that don't have houses, can we impose a fee on them then? Like a "Well, you have to pay because everyone else has to and you're just sitting on your gil and not using it for anything currently" tax?

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Wow, the angry sarcasm though. Gil isn't a limited resource shared between all players on your server. I can sit on max gil and not affect your ability to get it yourself in any way.
Also, there is no "putting it back into the economy" with gil because it is created and removed by the system, not the economy, and the system has an infinite supply.
The lack of logic in your questions really shows just whose panties are in a bunch here.

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Originally Posted by SirBrighton

Paying bills is not a punishment. Is this not how owning a house in real life works? Owning a house doesn't mean you get free utilities too, you must pay for those

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Is this a job? Or is this a game? Meant for entertainment and fun? I'm pretty sure Yoshi-P and the dev team are going to see this at some point and ask the same question. I don't pay SE so I can have another job. I pay them for a game to have fun with in their world and systems. The people who bought those plots DID NOTHING WRONG. And also on this note: You're not even on that server. People are whining about something that isn't even affecting them or their server worlds. Tell me, What TOS did these two players break? NONE. If anything, everyone who is against them is in fact harassing them which IS against TOS and all those against it deserve a ban imo under the TOS harassment section.

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Originally Posted by SirBrighton

Paying bills is not a punishment. Is this not how owning a house in real life works? Owning a house doesn't mean you get free utilities too, you must pay for those (unless you want to live in a house with no power).

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One problem. I don't want to deal with the same issues in a fantasy game, that I deal with in real life.

No, I don't want to pay rent. I finally got my house and I know that I will play this game for a long time. I am happy with my small house, I have everything I need there. I log in every day and enter my house every day as I grow stuff both indoors and outdoors. I have crafting stations in there where I craft and sell on the market board. I am using my house to the fullest, and I don't need to pay more each month, after I finally got enough to get this, just so i don't lose it.

Bills are a RL thing. Upkeep can stay away from my fantasy games. I didn't like that system in LOTRO, and I don't want it here.

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Originally Posted by RemTsuki

I think they should just separate housing into 2 category: the personal zone & the FC zone
In the FC zone: Housing will be set in community format, like it is right now, and only FC with a set amount of active people will be able to keep their house after a certain amount of days.

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So because some of us prefer to have a smaller FC because it's the number of people we trust, even though we can afford (and actually DO in fact) have a large plot, you're saying because of our number of members, we should be forced into a smaller place? Who are you to determine the quality of players? Our fc has the first new carby house, sold the first ones as well. Just because we are small, we are active, and more productive than many FC's I've seen with large numbers. Quantity does not equal quality. The housing system is fine as is. This post, and the people crying on the reddit, are literally just babies who have entitlement issues.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

It kinda makes the game into a job, which is the fastest way to make it unfun for a lot of people.

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This is exactly right. It is a game and should be fun. Those that are getting bent over the fact that someone else has played and worked for what they got should just let it go. They did the work. Do I agree with having that many houses, no, but I'm not about to tell them they can't. As for charging extra to keep a house, why? If you got a house, GREAT! Good for you. There is already a practice in place that makes a person have to be active to keep it. Yes, I understand that it sucks that others can't get what they want but it is what it is. For those saying it isn't fair that they only have to go in once every 45 days, it is fair. They pay a sub just like everyone else. Calm down and search for those unlucky folks that didn't go into their house. Learn to check the districts every hour for an open plot.

This is similar to the system they use in LotRO. If your upkeep runs out, your furniture/stuff gets held by an NPC and your plot is made available.

Though in LotRO a new housing instance was generated every time one got full.

LOTRO's housing was also fairly basic. You had hooks where you could put certain furniture and that's it. That's why they could generate new wards every time one would fill up. Less data. And the rent system there was really annoying. You had to pay in advance for a few weeks, and if you forgot, you would get locked out of your house and would have to hunt down the NPC that dealt with this thing.

Heck no. Terrible idea. We do not need more ways to make housing more annoying than it already is.

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Originally Posted by touya

Is this a job? Or is this a game? Meant for entertainment and fun? I'm pretty sure Yoshi-P and the dev team are going to see this at some point and ask the same question. I don't pay SE so I can have another job. I pay them for a game to have fun with in their world and systems. The people who bought those plots DID NOTHING WRONG. And also on this note: You're not even on that server. People are whining about something that isn't even affecting them or their server worlds. Tell me, What TOS did these two players break? NONE. If anything, everyone who is against them is in fact harassing them which IS against TOS and all those against it deserve a ban imo under the TOS harassment section.

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This, so much.

We were asking developers to fix the problem by being beneficial for -everyone-. Not punish all players including tenants by preventing them from getting housing because they'll never have enough to pay each month.

Using your pricing, an entire ward in Mist would cost 1.15 million a month. If you can afford multiple houses, that's really nothing.

But it does penalises everyone else just because you don't like the actions of a few.

How about making this only if a player has more than one house?

So players who are more casual don't have to pay a fee to keep their house.

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Originally Posted by touya

Is this a job? Or is this a game? Meant for entertainment and fun?

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The game has market taxes. Are those fun? From your point of view, paying additional fees is a punishment. Do you think Yoshi-P and the dev team questioned whether or not to add that feature to the game? Well it's in the game, so you know what they decided on.
Now the real question. If this is supposed to be a game meant for fun, why would they add something so not-fun like taxes to the game, especially when the taxed amount doesn't even go "back into the economy"?

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Originally Posted by SirBrighton

The game has market taxes. Are those fun? From your point of view, paying additional fees is a punishment. Do you think Yoshi-P and the dev team questioned whether or not to add that feature to the game? Well it's in the game, so you know what they decided on.
Now the real question. If this is supposed to be a game meant for fun, why would they add something so not-fun like taxes to the game, especially when the taxed amount doesn't even go "back into the economy"?

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Lol, we both know those "taxes" are avoided if you're in that zone are. so if i buy a 10M item and instead of paying 5% on that, i can spend the cheaper fee to teleport to that area and get it without taxes. Does your solution offer tax exemption like the MB does? Also, these taxes are ON PLAYER MADE ITEMS. NPCs do not have taxes. Thus, things controlled by players have taxes. I can't craft and sell you a plot, thus the plots should not be taxed.

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Originally Posted by touya

Lol, we both know those "taxes" are avoided if you're in that zone are. so if i buy a 10M item and instead of paying 5% on that, i can spend the cheaper fee to teleport to that area and get it without taxes.

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You know sales tax and import tax are different, right? The sales tax is removed from the listed amount and the rest is given to the seller, and if you're in a different city than the retainer when you buy something from them then there is a 5% import tax. That's a TIL for you.
Right now the only city offering 0% sales tax is Kugane, meaning unless all of your retainers are dispatched there, you are forced to pay 3-5% sales tax.
As for the comment about NPCs not having tax, I think you meant NPCs don't have an import tax, which makes sense since you're right there. And if you want to get real technical, NPCs are charged 100% sales tax since the money just returns to the system.

STOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP! SE is ALREADY being a pain in teh hiney.......

SE said they woudl not require people to even have subs to keep their houses. So if you wante dto take a break you could.....Now you lose your house.

Heavens forbid your computer fries. Like mine actually did. Took me 6 months to replace it. Thankfully, wifey had a computer and could log in and "enter" the house.

SE not only requires people to have active subs. But also requires you to log in once a month and enter the stupid house. What if i just want to take a break, take a few months off, go on vacation, need surgery in a foreign country (like i actually did, was out of country for over a month). You lose your house! I lost a house and everything in it, including all of the money i should have gotten back. Sucks to be me.

Point is, no, SE should just instance the housing, make ALL of the houses just like they do the apartments. Fix the problem, but do not make any more burdens on those of us who bust our asses, play the markets, sell our souls to get houses.

Rift doesn't charge me additional fees to keep all 13 + dimensions across multiple characters, they don't expect me to log in after X amount of time or I will lose them either.

/no

SE, fix the problem of availability. Dish out the bucks to make it happen.
Instanced is a start...begin there plz. as suggested years ago.

tyty

I'm still waiting for the thread creator to tell me what TOS these players broke in the article. He seems to be wanting to ignore the fact that these players did NOT break any TOS. I am still wanting SE to give a 45 day or a perma ban to everyone that has been harassing these players in any way for them to lose their hard work, this way those harassers learn a good lesson. If there is no violation of TOS, then nothing needs to be done. This is FACT.

Is that the only reason you're sticking around? Okay, they aren't doing anything against the ToS.

Now to show you why that's a problem.

If I worked to and eventually owned all the houses and apartments on every server and wouldn't give a single one up, I still wouldn't be breaking the ToS, right? If I am single-handedly saying "no, you don't get to enjoy this content", you would be completely fine with that, and in fact defend me for doing so? The housing system is flawed in that it allows a player to do just this. Just because something's not against the ToS doesn't mean it isn't unfair.
I'm not saying they should give up their houses, I'm saying make it so one person can't potentially own them all.

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Originally Posted by touya

I'm still waiting for the thread creator to tell me what TOS these players broke in the article. He seems to be wanting to ignore the fact that these players did NOT break any TOS. I am still wanting SE to give a 45 day or a perma ban to everyone that has been harassing these players in any way for them to lose their hard work, this way those harassers learn a good lesson. If there is no violation of TOS, then nothing needs to be done. This is FACT.

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House reselling technically isn't against the TOS either, but SE still punishes players for doing so. There is a provision in the TOS that basically amounts to "if you are preventing other players from enjoying the game," and while I doubt they're going to do anything in this case, one person owning all of those houses in a congested server could certainly be seen as doing such. It's the same logic they use for the house resellers - you're locking a significant portion of the playerbase out of the feature. Just because it isn't explicitly stated in the TOS doesn't mean SE would never do anything about it. They can't detail every possible situation so that's why that one exists.

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Originally Posted by SirBrighton

in fact defend me for doing so? The housing system is flawed in that it allows a player to do just this.

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Honestly, yes. I don't know these people but when they did nothing wrong I would stand up for them. Would it suck for the rest of us, hells to the yeah, but it doesn't mean we should go after them with fire. You could politely ask them what it would take to buy a plot from them. These were houses that no one wanted for a long time. So to answer your question, yes, I would stand up for you if you didn't break the terms of service. Yes, I would back your choice to be able to do something and be proud of your accomplishments. Side note though: you are only allowed 8 toons per server = 8 house+8appt+8 fc houses per server. One person alone couldn't do it. Grab a friend or two to reach this goal. Hell I'll even help level up your fc's to get 'er done. :) Have a wonderful day.

So in all actuality, the 2 of them could have a max of together: 16 toons leveled to 50+ with GC standings at max (all of them), 16 personal houses, 16 FC houses, and 16 apartments for a grand total of: 32 houses and 16 apartments and 16 personal rooms in the FCs (all on one server of course). They also did this pre-SB and pre-jump potions. Now remember how long it took you to get 1 toon to 50 + GC at max rank. They really did put in the work for this. Let it go.

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Originally Posted by Abnoba

So in all actuality, the 2 of them could have a max of together: 16 toons leveled to 50+ with GC standings at max (all of them), 16 personal houses, 16 FC houses, and 16 apartments for a grand total of: 32 houses and 16 apartments and 16 personal rooms in the FCs (all on one server of course). They also did this pre-SB and pre-jump potions. Now remember how long it took you to get 1 toon to 50 + GC at max rank. They really did put in the work for this. Let it go.

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Everyone seems to forget this part.

You know what, lol. Let's just give a ward per account so that 8 characters can buy many plots as much as they want. Then they can build a village.

(Why didn't they do this to begin with...)