MP Drain - Fist

I would like to see PGL get an MP Drain stance/ability similar to the fire and earth fists. This ability would simply allow the PGL to drain MP from the target. Similar to the fire and earth fists, their could be a penalty like reduced TP gain or HP drain to MP conversion.

Thoughts?

Make Murderous Mogfists MP drain

or use sucker punch ?

Not enough to keep stances up forever.

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Originally Posted by Meleena

Not enough to keep stances up forever.

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While this is true, you're not supposed to keep them up forever. I made a macro so I can quickly switch between the stances, or turn them off. I used it a couples in the arena battles as well. Turn them off whenever you're not fighting, or when you're fighting something strong to the element you're using. Furthermore, the amount absorbed seems to be based off damage, so use potency materia to increase your stance damage, use Blood for Blood and you can get about 300-400 MP back each time. That is more then enough to get full combos off before having to refill MP.

I'd like to keep stances up forever though.

I recently won moogle fight as pgl and i kited the King moogle w/ earth fist up for 20 mins straight.

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Originally Posted by Firon

I recently won moogle fight as pgl and i kited the King moogle w/ earth fist up for 20 mins straight.

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Gotta love featherfoot and Sanguine rite, neh? =3

The MP drain of fist stances is too large, it needs to be reduced. Even using sucker punch, and featherfoot while soloing, it's still drains your whole mp pool within 2 minutes.

And what about boss fights where you have no way of naturally recovering mp? Depend on Sucker punch? I don't think so. Not to mention that using sucker punch to recover a little mp for your fist stance means locking yourself out of the Demolish -> Howling Fist combo which is a significant amount of damage over sucker punch.

The mp drain needs to be revised so that it can be decently sustained by sucker punch, I don't care if the drain eventually outlasts sucker punch, but right now it drains way too fast.

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Originally Posted by Miliant

Not to mention that using sucker punch to recover a little mp for your fist stance means locking yourself out of the Demolish -> Howling Fist combo which is a significant amount of damage over sucker punch.

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You can still use Sucker Punch without combo-ing it and still absorb MP. You just have to pay the TP cost.

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Originally Posted by Miliant

The mp drain needs to be revised so that it can be decently sustained by sucker punch, I don't care if the drain eventually outlasts sucker punch, but right now it drains way too fast.

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Personally, I think the directional requirement of Sucker Punch makes it harder to use effectively. Maybe removing that and/or a trait that piggybacks on Featherfoot's MP gain might help.

I agree with Miliant BTW, either reduce cost or give us a normal way to gain MP back FFS

Actually its not hard to keep mp like i said before i kept mp up for an whole 20 mins in moogle fight and same for GC leves.

Need to make more use of hay maker when solo so you can get those combo's off.

Sure its not hard to keep MP if you don't use it...
The Thief in the moogle fight also steals MP...

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Originally Posted by Firon

I recently won moogle fight as pgl and i kited the King moogle w/ earth fist up for 20 mins straight.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Actually its not hard to keep mp like i said before i kept mp up for an whole 20 mins in moogle fight and same for GC leves.

Need to make more use of hay maker when solo so you can get those combo's off.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the brunt of the cost paid when you actually hit something? Twenty minutes spent kiting means nothing to me, because that's likely only a few minutes of actually attacking. . .

No when youre in an actual fight the drain begins as soon as you take out your weapon and it never stops.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the brunt of the cost paid when you actually hit something? Twenty minutes spent kiting means nothing to me, because that's likely only a few minutes of actually attacking. . .

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The cost triggers with active mode. Stay in passive mode and you have no MP depletion.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the brunt of the cost paid when you actually hit something? Twenty minutes spent kiting means nothing to me, because that's likely only a few minutes of actually attacking. . .

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Wrong,

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Originally Posted by Meleena

No when youre in an actual fight the drain begins as soon as you take out your weapon and it never stops.

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wrong,

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Originally Posted by Lienn

The cost triggers with active mode. Stay in passive mode and you have no MP depletion.

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and wrong.

The MP drain begins as soon as you activate the buff and it drains at a constant rate, regardless of what you are doing. When you are in passive mode, however, because you also have MP regen it may appear as though the drain is less or non-existent. When moving in passive mode, the drain is very small due to the regen tick recovering most of what is lost. When standing still you actually recover MP due to the regen being much stronger than the drain.

The cost of MP drain by the stances are not high at all for the drastic effect they have on PGL. The Attack power and the Defense boost is very noticeable.

First off, when solo - which is what PGL still excels at - Featherfoot + Sucker Punch combo more than makes up for the drain. You can essentially stay at capped MP the whole time. I've done it.

When you aren't solo, or tanking, you have to rely mainly on the Sucker Punch combo for MP recovery. The MP recovered by Sucker Punch appears to be damage based, so buffing it with BfB whenever it is available is wise. The best PGL WS to use BfB on, since the damage increase from BfB is a static value independent of what it is use on. The cooldown on Sucker Punch is also low enough that it can take care of your MP needs for extended periods of time, but at the same time not so low that you'd end up spamming it and only it. There's plenty of time to pull off the Howling Fist combo or the Simian Thrash combo.

The stances were not meant to be an endless resource for PGL. They are well worth the cost. Taking any opportunity to get off stance and switch back on helps as well - 10s cooldown on the stance skills.

See now that is a post that is well thought out and understands what the new Pgl is.

Oh I know what it is, not capable of keeping his stances always on, thats what it is.

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Originally Posted by Firon

I recently won moogle fight as pgl and i kited the King moogle w/ earth fist up for 20 mins straight.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Actually its not hard to keep mp like i said before i kept mp up for an whole 20 mins in moogle fight and same for GC leves.

Need to make more use of hay maker when solo so you can get those combo's off.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the brunt of the cost paid when you actually hit something? Twenty minutes spent kiting means nothing to me, because that's likely only a few minutes of actually attacking. . .

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Lol I doubt it's even possible to kite him that long. King always gets called away from time to time to other moogles.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

Lol I doubt it's even possible to kite him that long. King always gets called away from time to time to other moogles.

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Ok and you just get the hate back with Sent then voke taunt flash and rampart

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Originally Posted by Meleena

Oh I know what it is, not capable of keeping his stances always on, thats what it is.

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Wasn't meant to be able to keep the stances on always.

Well its obvious that it wasnt meant to be this way but IMO it should.

I would prefer losing a bit of defence when I activate Fire Fists and losing attack while activating Earth Fists, but I wanted to be able to keep these stances, MP drain is not a good way to go IMO.

While it doesnt bother me as much now, it will bother me when I play Monk, because for some reason Monks need MP to kick...
What if I wanted to use only kicks?
Anyway...

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Originally Posted by Meleena

Well its obvious that it wasnt meant to be this way but IMO it should.

I would prefer losing a bit of defence when I activate Fire Fists and losing attack while activating Earth Fists, but I wanted to be able to keep these stances, MP drain is not a good way to go IMO.

While it doesnt bother me as much now, it will bother me when I play Monk, because for some reason Monks need MP to kick...
What if I wanted to use only kicks?
Anyway...

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I disagree.
I like the fact that we only receive a bonus to a stat along with the elemental alignment, and no stat penalties. The cost is MP alone. The stances aren't simply offense/defense. That is but a single purpose. Switching to Fists of Earth to exploit the elemental weakness of a mob type - something I already do frequently - is important as well. Making it so Earth's defense bonus comes also with an attack penalty would be counter-productive to this.

This all becomes even less of an issue when Jobs are released, because there will also be BRDs. So we can imbue our hits with elements and add kicks all we want. On top of the MP regen BRDs will be tossing about, MNK gets a 3rd hit in the Sucker Punch combo which will likely make that a much more desirable combo as well.

I'd rather manage MP and turn elements on/off for bonuses than suffer stat penalties so I can keep them on. It's not like PGL is weak without the stances.

Have you guys noticed that Stun is fixed now, so that it isn't removed when the mob is attacked? With a 5s stun on Haymaker and a 10s stun on Pounce, PGL has plenty of things working for it.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I disagree.
I like the fact that we only receive a bonus to a stat along with the elemental alignment, and no stat penalties. The cost is MP alone. The stances aren't simply offense/defense. That is but a single purpose. Switching to Fists of Earth to exploit the elemental weakness of a mob type - something I already do frequently - is important as well. Making it so Earth's defense bonus comes also with an attack penalty would be counter-productive to this.

This all becomes even less of an issue when Jobs are released, because there will also be BRDs. So we can imbue our hits with elements and add kicks all we want. On top of the MP regen BRDs will be tossing about, MNK gets a 3rd hit in the Sucker Punch combo which will likely make that a much more desirable combo as well.

I'd rather manage MP and turn elements on/off for bonuses than suffer stat penalties so I can keep them on. It's not like PGL is weak without the stances.

Have you guys noticed that Stun is fixed now, so that it isn't removed when the mob is attacked? With a 5s stun on Haymaker and a 10s stun on Pounce, PGL has plenty of things working for it.

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Oh yeah i love the stun changes a lot... Mp is not really a prob on pgl as you said. I killed 27 mobs on the kill as many as you can mobs gc quest w/ fist of fire/earth up damn near the whole time. Also like you said sucker punch should be used frequently its always time to use it in between combo's.

As I said it doesnt bother me now, but I have to see how monk works to believe it.
Theres is no reason to make Kicks MP drain and Bards is not something I will count unless they make party content that has a use for Monks in this game.
Pugilist is still mainly a good class for solo and I want to use my kicks as long as I want.

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Originally Posted by Meleena

As I said it doesnt bother me now, but I have to see how monk works to believe it.
Theres is no reason to make Kicks MP drain and Bards is not something I will count unless they make party content that has a use for Monks in this game.
Pugilist is still mainly a good class for solo and I want to use my kicks as long as I want.

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While Pugilist is great for solo still, all jobs are being designed with party in mind. Not being able to cross class can hinder a Monk's solo ability - not as much as other Jobs though I'll give you that.

Kicks being added I imagine ending up making Monk have 3 hits per auto attack - which is a set, considerable increase to DPS. They are also the only Job/class with an auto-haste ability. Add to this they can increase their attack power and/or exploit 3/6 elemental weaknesses and they will end up being quite the DPS machine once they get BRD's refresh if PGL's current ability is considered.

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Kicks being added I imagine ending up making Monk have 3 hits per auto attack - which is a set, considerable increase to DPS. They are also the only Job/class with an auto-haste ability. Add to this they can increase their attack power and/or exploit 3/6 elemental weaknesses and they will end up being quite the DPS machine once they get BRD's refresh if PGL's current ability is considered.

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Hmm I havent considered the option of making Monk have both punches and kicks at the same time, I always thought that it would be like FFXI version where he used kicks instead of punches when the buff was on (slower but stronger attacks).

Still MP usage doesn't make sence but this idea is definetly better.

It adds a resource to be managed like TP, HP or recasts.

Unless y'all claiming managing MP adds no depth to PGL's and soon MNK's playstyle there is definitely a meaning to it's existence.

Just because, say, XI's Monk had no resource management is not a proper justification to exclude it here. Not having it was XI's mistake and in that game Monk was indeed quite an auto-pilot Job at least up until Utsusemi added some recast resource management to it's game.

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Originally Posted by Meleena

Hmm I havent considered the option of making Monk have both punches and kicks at the same time, I always thought that it would be like FFXI version where he used kicks instead of punches when the buff was on (slower but stronger attacks).

Still MP usage doesn't make sence but this idea is definetly better.

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Of course I can't say I'm sure, even though I tend to be right with my predictions. I'm basing it off of the Ability saying it "adds kicks to auto-attacks" and not saying it converts AA into kicks. The elemental stances clearly use the word convert, while the MNK ability says it adds.

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Just because, say, XI's Monk had no resource management is not a proper justification to exclude it here.

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In 11's case when Monk used kicks was not a buff, it was a different way of playing the class, another "stance" if you prefer.
You dont need to have a resource management to change from a Monk to Samurai (thats what kicks did in FF11).
In this case it's a buff that uses MP and its not even elemental.
Its not about immersion, I explained my reasons in the other thread, read it.

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Originally Posted by Meleena

In 11's case when Monk used kicks was not a buff, it was a different way of playing the class, another "stance" if you prefer.
You dont need to have a resource management to change from a Monk to Samurai (thats what kicks did in FF11).
In this case it's a buff that uses MP and its not even elemental.
Its not about immersion, I explained my reasons in the other thread, read it.

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It's an everlasting buff, just like the stances. Instead of being governed by a recast timer, it is governed by an MP drain cost. Idk about you, but I rather like the idea of choosing when to have/not have a buff up instead of being bound to a recast time.

Read at the other topic and try to understand why MP is not a viable source to use for this.

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Originally Posted by Meleena

Read at the other topic and try to understand why MP is not a viable source to use for this.

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lol no need to keep referring to it. I'm managing to keep up with both threads just fine.

I just want to focus on the other thread because there is no need to look on both of them for the same subject.

Featherfoot and alternating my t3 howling fist combo 2x with keen flurry then using my sucker punch combo with buffs is more than enough to manage my mp pool. you just gotta toggle fists on and off when its needed. Having amazing mages in your group that keep you topped up and buffed throughout the fight helps, you should never need to reserve mana for anything other than offensive uses.