[Spoiler] Papalymo life worthness

It seem his dead was mere simply suicide that doesn't help anything.


Says, if we can defeat Shinryu + Zenos head on, why couldn't we just fight Shinryu on its spawn?

We, the Warrior of Lights, can always call upon another 7 and win against any odd, anyway, that is what we always do, and will be the same on up coming Omega also. (well, if we can win against shinryu head-on, yes we can on Omega!)




Also, we should never have activate Omega.... it only cause more trouble for Warrior of Light to kick both Shinryu and Omega asses.

Because we were not strong enough yet during the end of 3.X era.

If we fight Shinryu during that time we would be level 60 fighting a level 70 Shinryu.

Part of the story for 4.0 is about the WoL becoming strong enough to defeat Shinryu through his or her journey in the 4.0 areas. This gives a actual lore reason why the WoL can level from 60 to 70 despite being stuck in level 60 for 3.X era for so long.

Because Tarus must be sacrificed on a regular basis.

We lost to Zenos... Zenos wouldn't manifest himself into Shinryu unless he gained power.

How do you expect to beat shinryu before 4.0 if we couldn't beat normal Zenos

There is a very special place reserved in hell for people like you, Keramory :)

I Doubt our level matter in the story line. there was never a story where WoL goes on a journey to become stronger. Most likely, we going on on a journey to encourage Doma to fight with us. But in the end, we fight Shinryu by ourselves anyway..

Another way to look at it is that Zenos possessed Shinryu and then focused only on the WoL and their party. Normal Shinryu was summoned as a spirit of war and rage, and likely would have went on rampage destroying cities and such instead of focusing on the WoL. His sacrifice allowed the group to come up with a plan that mitigated such a disaster, and later was dealt with on better footing (aka with Omega).

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Originally Posted by Alise

I Doubt our level matter in the story line. there was never a story where WoL goes on a journey to become stronger. Most likely, we going on on a journey to encourage Doma to fight with us. But in the end, we fight Shinryu by ourselves anyway..

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Problem is even if you're 100000% right about leveling not relevant. Us getting stronger was the reason Zenos let us live. He wanted us to better ourselves so he could have a challenge. Which means story wise yes we did get stronger

While tangibly his sacrifice did not seem to hold much more weight than buying us time, symbolically it was another blow against the Scions of the 2.0 Era. All that's left of the original gang now are Thancred and Y'Shtola, both of whom have been handicapped by their journey through the lifestream.

Minfilia - Gone
Papalymo - Dead
Yda - Long Dead

It's a pity. I'd have liked to of seen him live and be developed as his own character.

is yda truly dead?

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Originally Posted by godwin

is yda truly dead?

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As far as we know, yes. And nothing in Stormblood even subtly implies otherwise, so I think it's a pretty good assumption to make for now.

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Originally Posted by Alise

there was never a story where WoL goes on a journey to become stronger.

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Our rise to prominence from humble beginnings throughout ARR's original story is a journey of becoming stronger in and of itself, as are the progressive substories of each Class/Job Quest. In addition, we pretty much had to EARN back the Blessing of Light for ourselves throughout Heavensward as well.

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Originally Posted by Kinkoz

Our rise to prominence from humble beginnings throughout ARR's original story is a journey of becoming stronger in and of itself, as are the progressive substories of each Class/Job Quest. In addition, we pretty much had to EARN back the Blessing of Light for ourselves throughout Heavensward as well.

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I think Alise meant in SB. Yes we got stronger through HW and at the end of it we even were able to defeat Nidhogg. So the defeat of the big bad took a whole expansion and the eye of a dragon. Yet in SB we defeat Zenos and Shinyrue at the very start of the expansion. Yes ingame we leveled up but I am quite sure that we do not have levels in lore, simply because that would mean that a bug in the new zones could easily defeat all the voids in the old 24 man raids because those are <60 and the bug is 70. (As an example)

I would be able to believe the victory against such an enemy way more if we faced them at the end of SB. And I agree with Alise, there was never a true journey to become stronger. I would have liked if we came to the realization that we need to get stronger after Zenos and have us, as the WoL, focus on training. Maybe half of the expansion around training and learning more about the lore at the same time and the other half about freeing Doma. So that we would have the whole other expansion left to take back Ala Mhigo. Yet somehow we were getting way stronger by just helping out. There was simply no true scene where they show us go all out or something.

I'm sure Moose will correct me, but to me it looks like this:

Shinryu when summoned would have wrecked us pretty badly. But Omega fought him, beat him up, and even locked him in a prison that might have weakened him.
Zenos has trained in battle since he was a kid and even gave himself fake echo. That why we couldn't just faceroll him like everyone else. But once he merged with Shinryu (the greatly weakened Shinryu) we could use the full power of the Blessing of Hydealin against him and actually win. Of course he was still very much alive after that, but since he got the epic battle he wanted he killed himself now that his life is complete.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

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Zenos did state himself that when we first fight him we were far weaker than he was which is why he beat the WoL. Then in 2nd fight he manage to finally damage his armor and he then state that he wants us to live so we can become even stronger and how he regret looking down on WoL due to how much weaker he was during the 1st battle.

It is stated in the story that the 4.0 journey has made the WoL stronger just enough to finally to be able to defeat Zenos and Shinryu in the Final Dungeon though Zenos words.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Yet in SB we defeat Zenos and Shinyrue at the very start of the expansion. Yes ingame we leveled up but I am quite sure that we do not have levels in lore

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Our growth in strength is represented through three key in-game moments - the first time we fight Zenos in Rhalgr's Reach, the second time in Doma, and the final time in Ala Mhigo. The first time we barely make a dent against him and he's just toying with us. The second time we actually make an impression on him (represented in-game by actually getting him to roughly half health). And of course the final time when we do beat him.

We don't have "levels" in lore, but we do grow stronger in our abilities and what we are capable of doing, and it's actually represented in the story this time via an in-game representation.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

That why we couldn't just faceroll him like everyone else. But once he merged with Shinryu (the greatly weakened Shinryu) we could use the full power of the Blessing of Hydealin against him and actually win.

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It wasn't just using the full power of the Blessing when he was merged - notice how the second time you fight him you do better? And the final time, pre-merge, we actually beat him back (we'd have taken him down entirely then had he not backed off to merge with Shinryu)? That right there is the indication of our strength against him, and how we do grow in power over the course of the 4.0 story.

While it wasn't made explicit in the story, I see fighting Zenos as the first time that the WoL goes up against another echo user of greater power or perhaps skill since the Ascians should be more powerful but ego and plot devices keep defeating them. Despite Shiva, Yaysle wasn't on the same level, and the WoD tried to overcome the WoL through numbers, but would have lost individually. The WoL does have to improve to defeat Zenos/Shinryu. I wish that they had introduced the plot with the resonent earlier, and made the WoLs struggle to overcome it more apparent as I think it would have made Zenos a more interesting villain.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Yes we got stronger through HW and at the end of it we even were able to defeat Nidhogg. So the defeat of the big bad took a whole expansion and the eye of a dragon. Yet in SB we defeat Zenos and Shinyrue at the very start of the expansion.

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But our initial fight wasn't against Nidhogg exactly – we technically dealt with him partway through the expansion. It was against Thordan and Heaven's Ward, whom, by your measure, we also defeated at the very start of the expansion. Nidhogg wasn't even the last, major threat we dealt with by the end of Heavensward; our "final battle" of the expansion was against the Warriors of Darkness, provided that you only view the events of 3.5 as merely a transitional story to accommodate Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by godwin

is yda truly dead?

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The picture that appears during the credits with Papalymo and Yda with the flag seems to imply it.

Shinryu would have ravaged the world if papalymo had not sttoped him right there, what he gave us was time to counter shinryu.

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Originally Posted by Alise

It seem his dead was mere simply suicide that doesn't help anything.


Says, if we can defeat Shinryu + Zenos head on, why couldn't we just fight Shinryu on its spawn?

We, the Warrior of Lights, can always call upon another 7 and win against any odd, anyway, that is what we always do, and will be the same on up coming Omega also. (well, if we can win against shinryu head-on, yes we can on Omega!)




Also, we should never have activate Omega.... it only cause more trouble for Warrior of Light to kick both Shinryu and Omega asses.

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I was ok with Papalymo's passing as he hadn't served a purpose in a long while by that point. I see Minfilia the same way and I understand why she got sent to limbo. Shinry and the sacrifice showed up at the end of HW and the level cap was 60. Zenos was a lvl 70 enemy every time we encountered him and that was to show how much stronger than the wol he was. I'm confident that Shinryu would have been shown at lvl 70 as well had SE created a solo story dungeon or trial for him.

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Originally Posted by Nezia

Shinryu would have ravaged the world if papalymo had not sttoped him right there, what he gave us was time to counter shinryu.

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Basically this.

If Papalymo hadn't sacrificed himself for a temporary seal, we'd have been on the receiving end of an End-of-an-Era style nuking with no one to rescue us, or worse, everyone in the vicinity except us would have been tempered. That would have qualified as a "very bad end, savefile deleted, please do not try again."

If we hadn't unleashed Omega when we did, we'd have ended with basically the same result.

Unleashing Omega on the other hand gave Shinryu something else to focus on except blasting everyone or tempering them, and their battle ended up bleeding off a substantial amount of their Aether reserves - especially Shinryu's - which sets up the situation that lets us have an encounter in a more secluded locale later with less risk of collateral damage, especially of the Tempering kind.