Is it just me, or is this all pretty slapdash?

I'm not one to just complain for the sake of it, but this far in to the game, I'd kind of hoped the devs had a stronger hold on class balance in general. SB release, Unleash is nerfed- the very next patch, it's back where it was, if not better. It feels like every time they make a change, it's either aimed directly at top level play and completely messes up leveling/ability locked content, or it overcorrects and bloats the endgame out of control. It's like watching someone yank a too-short extension cord out of a wall to meet the the plug. And now the game plan seems to be to just continually buff enmity over and over?? Is anyone else concerned, or am I just worrying too much about a rough patch?

See, IMO, they dug themselves a hole they don't know how to get out of. They made the DPS far too ridiculous, and now tanks are complaining they can't do enough DPS to be comparable, and they can't keep enmity so they think the solution is to stick more DPS stats on their jewelry instead of actually trying to tank. And so the healers start complaining about squishy tanks wearing DPS stats, and now they're scratching their heads going "oh my what a mess...."

*sigh*

So, then, the fastest band-aid is to dump enmity on tanks so that they can at least hold mobs without spamming Flash non-stop. But then, this makes some content ridiculously easy, but they at least want to at least put a stopgap on it, if nothing else, while they try to figure out what to do in 4.05.

I think at some point they're going to have to face the music that DPS is just too out of hand, and too ridiculous, and no manner of spongey mobs is going to fix that.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

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It almost feels like it wouldn't have been an issue if HW hadn't happened. They obviously don't want tanks doing that much damage anymore, but once the genie's out of the bottle, any nerf feels terrible. I don't even like being an aggressive DPS-style tank but even I feel the hit to my power on the part of the boss fight where I contribute to spike damage and that Fell Cleave doesn't hit like it used to.

Well, I think what they really wanted, was Tanks to be more viable solo. Before Heavensward, I used to hate Paladin leveling. It was slow, it was boring, and it wasn't fun whatsoever.

HW made it better with Clemency but DPS was still a bit low. But now, in Stormblood... lol. PLD is the best of the best. Insane fun. I killed a B-Rank at Lv64 with minimal help from a passerby. That's how ridiculous it is.

But yet when you make those kinds of changes... you're going to need to buff DPS too, otherwise when the Tanks do as much DPS as the actual DPS... that won't do either then DPS start complaining (rightly so). So they buff DPS... and now we're to ludicrous levels where all the DPS classes are just overpowered.

I just got my SAM to 60 today. Put on full Lv60 gear. Walked up to a Lv55 mob. It didn't even last 6 seconds. One Gekko combo killed it. I was like "ooookay."

Personally I don't care about bringing the big deeps when I tank, I care about holding hate. The problem is when they gutted our ability to do damage, they also gutted our ability to generate hate. It was almost impossible to hold hate below 30 without the tank stance multiplier, now at least it might be tolerable.

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Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer

Personally I don't care about bringing the big deeps when I tank, I care about holding hate. The problem is when they gutted our ability to do damage, they also gutted our ability to generate hate. It was almost impossible to hold hate below 30 without the tank stance multiplier, now at least it might be tolerable.

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They "gutted our DPS"?

This is news to me. My DPS output seems to be fine?

Though I can't say I've done any solo work Pre-60 as a tank since Stormblood.

The enmity change was meant to affect ONLY low-level tanks who are trying to clear dungeons. New tanks were having trouble holding agro, and so that's why they made the adjustments.

Even before the changes, my level 70 Warrior wasn't having any trouble whatsoever tanking the high-level dungeons. Also, this explains why they didn't change the last skills of the enmity generators.

Tank damage is fine, WITH the STR accessories. Without them, it's still pretty good, but you feel a huge difference when you're killing monsters for hunts. It's kinda sad. Tanks felt strong before the expansion, now with the 270 accessories it's like they're STRONGER, which is something nobody wanted. But without them, they feel very weak.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

See, IMO, they dug themselves a hole they don't know how to get out of. They made the DPS far too ridiculous, and now tanks are complaining they can't do enough DPS to be comparable, and they can't keep enmity so they think the solution is to stick more DPS stats on their jewelry instead of actually trying to tank.

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You know, I've seen you mention this in two separate threads thus far and I feel like it should be called to your attention that damage output is also necessary for building and maintaining enmity, which is why people are prioritizing "DPS materia" melds and wearing 270 STR accessories over melding and wearing the newer Tanking stuff. On top of that, I feel you're not familiar with the fact that, in most cases, Tank gear is already designed to be at the maximum stat caps available for Tank-focused stats, which gives people a reason to meld that aforementioned "DPS materia" in order to shore up the damage stats that the pieces of gear lack.

RE@Kinkoz:

I am perfectly aware of how DPS translates into Enmity, BUT...

1). They buffed our enmity and are saying they will buff combos, too.
2). If you need Enmity, use your Enmity Combo instead of your DPS combo.

I have never, ever, ever lost a single-target to a DPS, ever. Threat problems only happen during Trash pulls, or perhaps the first couple seconds of a boss if a DPS decides he's going to dart in and start going to town on it before I can even hit the stupid thing.

Our threat output on Single-Target is fine. I haven't tanked at 70 yet, but I have done up to 65 and I've had zero problems, even when I am barely at level for the dungeon in a group full of Sync'd party members.

As for Materia and Max Stats, I suppose throwing on STR materia if you are VIT capped, sure. OK. But this doesn't explain the tanks choosing to wear Strength DoW accessories instead of tanking ones.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I have never, ever, ever lost a single-target to a DPS, ever.

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I have so many doubts about that considering that casters are able to tear enmity clean off any Tank if they burst right off the bat and don't bother using enmity-reducing CDs.

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Our threat output on Single-Target is fine. I haven't tanked at 70 yet, but I have done up to 65 and I've had zero problems, even when I am barely at level for the dungeon in a group full of Sync'd party members.

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Of course, because the problem that Warriors especially are having with dungeon content comes from those exact Trash pulls that you mentioned there being an issue with. Consider, also, the fact that you main Paladin, which has, hands down, proven to be the best Tank out of the three with the changes made to it this expansion. Even I started to level mine again through Palace and the differences in fluidity and utility are like night and day compared to Warrior and Dark Knight.

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As for Materia and Max Stats, I suppose throwing on STR materia if you are VIT capped, sure. OK. But this doesn't explain the tanks choosing to wear Strength DoW accessories instead of tanking ones.

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I just explained this in my previous reply. Damage output is necessary for building and maintaining enmity. Plus, several others in different threads have mentioned and explained the whole "maximizing performance" reasoning several times over, which is also valid.

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Originally Posted by Kinkoz

You know, I've seen you mention this in two separate threads thus far and I feel like it should be called to your attention that damage output is also necessary for building and maintaining enmity, which is why people are prioritizing "DPS materia" melds and wearing 270 STR accessories over melding and wearing the newer Tanking stuff. On top of that, I feel you're not familiar with the fact that, in most cases, Tank gear is already designed to be at the maximum stat caps available for Tank-focused stats, which gives people a reason to meld that aforementioned "DPS materia" in order to shore up the damage stats that the pieces of gear lack.

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On single target 8 man fights, you can literally "Shirk Jerk" your way through the fight thanks to provoke/shirk synergy. STR accessories for emnity doesn't even matter at that point.

I only play DRK but I feel like they just screwed the job in general. 3.0 DRK was amazing to me, I loved that job it was near perfect for what I wanted. I wish they just trimmed some abilities that were too similar, added the blackblood meter with the blackblood abilities to replace any lost complexity and then left the job. I come back and feel like I am playing a different job now, I only play it because I like the lore and way the gear looks really.

But in regards to all the tanks - What's actually wrong with gearing for STR? It increases emnity anyway so it's still a tank stat.
If it was me I would've just adopted the STR direction for tanks. Maybe keep some entry content VIT accessories around for people who hit max level and don't have much health to start with but then no longer drop VIT stuff in higher level content.
I don't see any problem with the old system at all. I don't think it feels weird or that tanks should have to want VIT. I wish they didn't change it. The only thing is doing huge pulls and AoEing was a bit too much imo, but you can just tune the AoE abilities (which they did anyway) so smaller pulls are the most efficient way to run.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Fury

On single target 8 man fights, you can literally "Shirk Jerk" your way through the fight thanks to provoke/shirk synergy. STR accessories for emnity doesn't even matter at that point.

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Thus, when it isn't a matter of enmity, it becomes a matter of increasing one's performance and damage output.

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Originally Posted by Kinkoz

Thus, when it isn't a matter of enmity, it becomes a matter of increasing one's performance and damage output.

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Exactly. This is the reason most players use them.
I prefer the HP from VIT personally. I usually pug everything, so the extra breathing space is nice for healers.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Fury

Exactly. This is the reason most players use them.
I prefer the HP from VIT personally. I usually pug everything, so the extra breathing space is nice for healers.

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And I never disagreed with that reasoning. The only reason I didn't call attention to it in that initial reply is on account of the fact that said explanations have already been stated hundreds of times already by others and I wanted to try my hand at explaining things from a different, potentially more understandable angle, since those who disagree seem to vehemently reject the notion that Tanks should rise above their station and provide respectable DPS as well.

As for the additional HP provided by Tank gear in lieu of actual Attack Power-increasing stats, I do believe a healer in another thread put it best: Having a large HP pool doesn't necessarily make it easier on healers to heal, since none of their spells actually scale with the increase to an allied target's health. Instead, it only makes it to where a healer needs to heal MORE in order to keep a Tank nice and healthy, and technically, you should never need to overinflate your HP in order to deal with things. So long as you have enough to survive mechanics, the rest of your stats should be built in such a way that increases your utility and performance which generally translates to damage output.

I was just doing my 65 drk quest and it really hit me why the STR system works. In that you have to protect Rielle from mobs that attack her, and one part of it is a DPS race or otherwise she dies.


Why is it that they design even the JOB QUEST with this kind of stuff but SE can't see why gearing for STR was the way to go? The fact it's forgiving enough that you could probably do it easily in VIT too doesn't matter. You are still encouraged to DPS as best you can and having a lot of health is not really useful in solo content. In fact, you get more survivability from regen through STR.

Just bring back gearing for STR. STR is a tank stat anyway. It increases regen from moves that convert a portion of damage to HP and increases emnity.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

They made the DPS far too ridiculous, and now tanks are complaining they can't do enough DPS to be comparable

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Thing is that the kit that all tanks have gotten since 3.0 release has mostly been tools for doing extra damage, and a bit of extra utility. Unfortunately this is the way they've decided to design their tanks and healers; do damage as an extra while doing your role.

i personally think that they should either embrace the idea of tanks doing damage (as they designed them too, looking at you fell cleave!) OR they redesign the tanks, enmity and fight design to such a point where tanks play more around fighting hard for agro through a whole fight, and mitigating a lot of damage, instead of only mititating tank busters. Ofcource the 2nd option would cost way too much time and money, so they have unfortunately dug their hole so to speak in to terms of where they want to go for how tanks play, a complete 180 turn would be very difficult at this point and it seems the changes to 4.x tanks in terms of damage calculations was like a "actually we're gonna go the other way now" without actually committing.
This all being said though, looking at 3.x, the tanks are actually just as balanced if not better balanced now than they were though 2.x and 3.x, but its still not perfect by any means and needs changes.