Royal Menagerie is hard but how you would expect in RPGs

Some people who attempt this boss and cleared it with no knowledge of the fight other than that the boss was originally a SUPER BOSS from a previous FF game basically means even the RNG of accuracy is gone now that does not mean bosses will kill you with RNG mechanics... and I welcome these kinds of fights where everyone is capped but RNG really screws them over... reminds me of D&D stories and memes... if you ask that the fight be not so you are wasting your breath...

In most typical RPGs, they don't have as many instant kills, especially for a story boss. That is what separates a MMO like FF14 from the other games. Even though a lot of complaints seem to just be plain rage, there is justification behind some of it. If it weren't for the lack of tank swapping mechanics and low damaging auto attacks, it could probably be classified as an extreme trial.

I actually disagree. The mechanics involved in the Story Mode Shinryu fight are nothing compared to the complexity of Extremes out currently(Susano and Lakshmi). They're simple, but they take time to learn just like any other fight. There is no justification in their supposed rage because this is actually how it should be. The Final Steps of Faith are even a testament to what happened when people complain too much, and show that the casual community seem to just want it really easy when at this stage you should be learning the new things that come with your job. Yoshi-P even implemented the Role System and simplify jobs, both high-end and low-end so that people don't have to press so many buttons like it was in Heavensward, so I don't get what all the fuss is about.

PS: I'm sorry if I come off as a bit elitist to some people in this post, but I'm a nice person. Promise.

Why do people complain as a fight being hard without taking the time to learn it? The fight isn't hard at all. Cleared it in two attempts and people communicating. I think people are just don't want to take the time to learn or expect to be carried. People compare them to other games, yet for some reason, because this game is easier than FFXI people expect fights to get easier. THEN SE LISTENS Nerfs the fights and people still complain now it's too easy. This game , normal mode at least is easy enough for most casual players to complete while EX is designed for players who want more of a challenge with some added rewards. IF your a casual player take time to learn the basic mechanics and communicate. If your a casual player and want to try EX battles be prepared for them to be hard and frustrating. DON'T COMPLAIN THEY ARE MEANT TO BE CHALLENGING AND FRUSTRATING. Either make a party who you can trust and changeling it, or expect to have communication / skill problems with random group. I mentor and believe me there are some people who listen and some who just don't take a hint and think they are experts., rage quit, and ruin it for everyone. Everyone has different styles and unfortunately some content isn't for everyone. It takes practice and people seem to lack common sense. Now with the new jump potions it wouldn't surprise me if we see more dead end players who lack experience in the basics :/

The challenge level is fun I just wish people would realize that online gaming requires patience, and team work.

I also would have to disaggree, this fight only takes long because people either dont do mechanics, output low dps etc. I spent aprox. an hour to complete because people would leave because they got mad. Its not a hard fight just like how steps of faith when it first came out wasnt a hard fight.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

I actually disagree. The mechanics involved in the Story Mode Shinryu fight are nothing compared to the complexity of Extremes out currently(Susano and Lakshmi). They're simple, but they take time to learn just like any other fight. There is no justification in their supposed rage because this is actually how it should be. The Final Steps of Faith are even a testament to what happened when people complain too much, and show that the casual community seem to just want it really easy when at this stage you should be learning the new things that come with your job. Yoshi-P even implemented the Role System and simplify jobs, both high-end and low-end so that people don't have to press so many buttons like it was in Heavensward, so I don't get what all the fuss is about.

PS: I'm sorry if I come off as a bit elitist to some people in this post, but I'm a nice person. Promise.

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I find this battle harder than Susano extreme strangely enough mainly due to the lack of variety in the mechanics. I felt like I had to remember how to do a lot more in the Royal Menagerie compared to Susano who's tactics are pretty easy to remember with tons of indicators everywhere telling you how to not die.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

I find this battle harder than Susano extreme strangely enough mainly due to the lack of variety in the mechanics. I felt like I had to remember how to do a lot more in the Royal Menagerie compared to Susano who's tactics are pretty easy to remember with tons of indicators everywhere telling you how to not die.

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I just got my Susano EX clear earlier today and I think I agree with you. The only thing that really sets Susano EX apart from RM is that if you die in RM, it's most likely your fault, whereas if you die in Susano EX, it could be your fault (looking at you, Churn victims) but it's also entirely possible that someone else mispositioned a thundercloud or forgot to move lightning or something and that got you killed.

...which is disgusting when you consider that we're comparing an optional EX boss to a mandatory story boss. Nerfs can't come soon enough...

If people think Royal Menagerie is hard, expect a lot of cries because of Omega, because that will most likely be harder (because optional and people probably closer to minimum ilvl on release; RM's minimum ilvl was already outleveld by 10 on the left side).

IMO I don't see a need to make royal menagerie easier. None of the mechanics are new. Most of the story duty content felt like basic review of old mechanics which I saw people fail consistently on the way through the MSQ. People sitting on min ilvl may slow DPS down but I feel the bigger issue is that now there are just too many people trying to clear the MSQ that simply either do not want to learn battle mechanics or do not want to learn how to play their job class effectively. The first time I did this duty we wiped once going in completely blind after a small mishap had most of the party pushed off the edge, then cleared on the second pull.

The thing that bugs me are the ones that consistently get hit by the same telegraphed and easily avoided moves then complain the battle is too hard.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

If people think Royal Menagerie is hard, expect a lot of cries because of Omega, because that will most likely be harder (because optional and people probably closer to minimum ilvl on release; RM's minimum ilvl was already outleveld by 10 on the left side).

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All current four parts of normal Omega are easier. It took me 2 attempts to clear O2 and 3 to clear O3. It took me more attempts to clear the Royal Menagerie than the entire first section of Omega. The hardest part is for the healers to keep up with the damage output. The rest of it was simple and far easier than the Royal Menagerie.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

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I agree with you, but the problems at both ends of your post: People have to learn it while annoying people that already learnt it.

Said people then get annoyed and leave because they can't spare precious time helping people learn, it's endemic of humans unfortunately.

It's a little different than Ex Primals or Raids because this is MSQ, you're not signing up for a challenge and know that going in you're trying to clear basic content, that's where most of the problems stemming from imo.

All in, it took me 2 different groups and 12 total pulls to get past this. 8 pulls in group 1, 4 pulls in group 2. I do not remember the exact numbers from Heavensward [correcting memory] Steps of Faith but I remember it being far more of a chore to get through it.
It is not that the groups I was in sucked, each group by the 3rd pull was getting the boss down to about 15% each time. Most frequent issue, a Healer would blow a mechanic and remaining Healer would not be able to keep up and failed to use Healer LB3.

Given the number of unique mechanics involved, this fight as it currently is, would be very difficult to learn for a new player because each mechanic has a different telegraph to learn. We, the experienced players, have seen them all before but new players have not.
This is common, I was in the 61 dungeon levelling my PLD, did DRG for MSQ, and the final boss has a stack telegraph. Both the SCH and SAM did not know that telegraph and ran away from other people each time they got it. The BRD and I chased them around the arena to try and save their lives. We succeeded 3 / 4 times, poor SAM bought once.

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Originally Posted by ChameleonMS

Given the number of unique mechanics involved, this fight as it currently is, would be very difficult to learn for a new player because each mechanic has a different telegraph to learn. We, the experienced players, have seen them all before but new players have not.
This is common, I was in the 61 dungeon levelling my PLD, did DRG for MSQ, and the final boss has a stack telegraph. Both the SCH and SAM did not know that telegraph and ran away from other people each time they got it. The BRD and I chased them around the arena to try and save their lives. We succeeded 3 / 4 times, poor SAM bought once.

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How new of a player are you if youre fighting the level 70 storyline boss? If you used job and story skip potions, isnt it on you to learn about the things you jumped? If you dont know a mechanic(which is fine - we all had to learn), cant you pay attention to the other people when they either tell you or show you what to do? Or ask questions if you still dont get it? I did this fight blind with no mechanics explained(party was half first timers), and when he started charging up a big "tidal wave" attack i looked at what everyone else did, and i went and stood by them. Sure enough, he punted me 90% of the way across the platform but not all the way off. If you didnt know the stack marker at level 61(which you should have because it was heavily featured as recently as final steps of faith at level 60), shouldnt you have learned it by the time Susano uses it on you? Arent you used to it when Shinryu does it? Theyre all the same marker. Him mimicking primal abilities from level 50 shouldnt be confusing anyone. We've been getting thrown off the battle platform since titan at level 35, thats plenty of time to learn that you either need to dodge the mechanic or get far enough from the edge not to get pushed over. And unlike titan, you can still be resed here. Im sure the veterans of this game could be better at teaching some of these things, but the "new" players need to be willing and able to learn.

I'm honestly not all that bothered by the current complexity of Shinryu, particularly since I feel that it does pale in comparison to the Extremes by a wide and far margin at present. However I also was not overly bothered by the first Steps of Faith and was disappointed that the original version wasn't somehow worked into an Extreme down the road. With that said if there comes a point where not enough people are capable of beating it, I don't see a small nerf as a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Frizze

How new of a player are you if your fighting the level 70 storyline boss? If you used job and story skip potions, isnt it on you to learn about the things you jumped?

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How new possible? They could have as little as 1 week of experience, the assuming jump potion usage, SB story line takes about 3-7 days of dedicated play to work through. Without raiding experience, not knowing mechanics is overwhelming. I will give the players the benefit of the doubt, as all the mechanics in the Shinryu are not previously displayed during the dungeons/trial of SB.
e.g. Diamond Dust (If you have never done Shiva). The tail telegraph is somewhat difficult to see when it covers the Blue squares.

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Originally Posted by Enla

With that said if there comes a point where not enough people are capable of beating it, I don't see a small nerf as a bad thing.

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So very true.

I really hope they don't change the fight, it is really the only fight where I felt any sense of accomplishment mechanically. I had to actually go a couple of attempts before I got a feel for the fight which isn't real common in MSQ fights. I think their mistake is the fact that every other MSQ fight up until that point strat can be summed up as "dodge stuff" where you don't need any real experience in the fight to be able to do it flawlessly

This just proves what I have been saying for 1 year. Players are so over geared while progressing to endgame. Then the said player gets to endgame and cant preform at the level they should be because they have never been challenged. Easy way to fix this is stop running unsynced content on older bosses, take time to actually learn your rotation and study enemey attacks and run a few dungeon with a party of 4 on min i level sync settings, this will fix your issue within a month
Having trouble healing? run pharos sirius Min i level sync
Having trouble tanking ? run Amdapor keep Min i level sync
Having trouble DPS? Run antitower Min i level sync
Dungeons are supposed to teach a player how to effectively handle a trial such shinryiu but since players are overgeared they dont actually understand their own capabilities when put to the test. The only way to get better at the game is to increase the difficulity yourself and stop getting these " clears" unsynced

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Originally Posted by ChameleonMS

How new possible? They could have as little as 1 week of experience, the assuming jump potion usage, SB story line takes about 3-7 days of dedicated play to work through. Without raiding experience, not knowing mechanics is overwhelming. I will give the players the benefit of the doubt, as all the mechanics in the Shinryu are not previously displayed during the dungeons/trial of SB.
e.g. Diamond Dust (If you have never done Shiva). The tail telegraph is somewhat difficult to see when it covers the Blue squares.

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This might just be something we disagree on. If you payed to skip playing a big portion of the game and go straight to the high levels, i dont really have any sympathy for you if you have a hard time figuring out how to play at those high levels. Sure, the tail marker could probly be more obvious. But if youre learning from your mistakes this fight still shouldnt take more then a couple tries. If you arent learning and keep making the same mistakes again and again you might have a bigger issue then this fight being too hard.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

All current four parts of normal Omega are easier. It took me 2 attempts to clear O2 and 3 to clear O3. It took me more attempts to clear the Royal Menagerie than the entire first section of Omega. The hardest part is for the healers to keep up with the damage output. The rest of it was simple and far easier than the Royal Menagerie.

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I cleared the new raid tier's first three floors blind without any wipes. I was DRK, and the rest were PLD, WHM, AST, DRG, MNK, BRD, and RDM. 4th floor took me the next day after 1 DPS left during 3rd or 4th attempt on launch day of Omega: Deltascape.

Royal Menagerie is not hard. I don't even remember the fight because the group I did it with cleared it in two attempts. The first attempt we wiped to the wave thing, but after that I honestly couldn't even tell you anything about the rest of the fight besides there being one of those real time action click things during it.

Like others have said, its not hard, but what is odd, and should be dealt with, is that mechanics arent initially apparent.
You see a fountain of water on the side, and everyone is like, ok... wtf does that even mean?
Some of us move to the side, thinking of leviathan, and how he would leap out of the water.
Some people thought to stand in the middle of the "lane" they thought was going to show up.
Then I was the person that saw it as "get as far away from it as possible, and step aside, but close enough u might be able to change to standing in the lane, in case u need to switch."
Conveyance is what the fight is lacking.
They can keep the dmg numbers, hp numbers, etc, all the same, they just need a better way to convey what each indicator even means. (the main ones are: tsunami, hellfire, and I forget what the Earthen Breat like attack is called, but the target indiocators should be the lock on, or blue ball above your head, not the orange claw icon.)
If it did that, everything would be fine.
(not that people still wouldnt be messing up, but it would be my main gripes.)

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Like others have said,

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My group has a battlecry for new events in any game we play : "FOR SCIENCE!"
this means: we don't know any mechanics and are willing to die to learn them all.
This is how I think fights should be. No manuals handed out, no "YOU SHOULD STOP MOVING!" prompts. If you want explanations there are tens of videos/walkthroughs published by other players who've already put in the time to find everything out, but if you're walking in blind expect to die a few times.

dying has very little penalty. A little lost time and some gil for repairs. This isn't FFXI where you'd lose 4 hours/a days work just because someone pulled weird.

Others have learned this fight before you, you can either learn from them or learn it on your own but don't expect to be able to perfectly finish the last boss on your first try with no prep.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

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Lack of conveyance isnt ok just because the penalty for failure isnt as bad when the penalty for death is low.
It is "less" bad, yes.

But it is lazy game design.

Bright UI indicator markers are also lazy game design. (usually, depends on the situation.)

If you see an actual tidal wave approaching from one side, heading to your platform, THAT would be the perfect indicator, and within reason.
If its too easy, then perhaps another mechanic should have been thought up instead?
(It was never hard to run to the water fountain, it was just hard for a 1st time player to know what the heck it even means.)

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

*stuff*

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what I'm saying is, the indicator is: you died when the mechanic went off and you got instakilled. It's very apparent after the 1st time what happened, and if you die AGAIN that's your own fault. most of the rest of the instakills are very self explanatory as far as I know.
my personal stance is that if you're not going to do research before hand, don't expect the fight to not punish you for the knowledge. I think it's expected you'll die to the mechanic to find out how to avoid it, especially since a lot of these are rehashes of previous mechanics. And if you haven't played those encounters before.. this is the price of the catch-up pot.

I understand you believe the game designers should have made more intuitive indicators. OK.. cool. But I personally think that would make this game too hand-holdy.

I dont think RM should be nerfed at all. Its not hard if you learn from your mistakes, or even just do what the players who seen all the mechanics before are doing. It took me 4 hours to clear this boss and the only reason it took that long was because extremely casual players refused to do anything but just stand there. When I finally cleared it 4 of the players in our group had never seen the boss before but they had the intelligence to actually listen to the people who have fought the boss before and just follow what we were doing. Hell, the first attempt with that party we got the boss down to 30% even though we didn't tell them what to do. When the tidal wave appeared the new players saw us running to the side so they did the same, they followed everything we did and because of that we beat it on the 2nd attempt.

Fights interesting. When I got my clear, the only person to have cleared was a healer. A tank and another dps have had many attempts. The first pull we got down to 20%. Only mechanic explained was the water move. Other than that I found ever other aoe pretty simple. However it did take 4 tries and after one dps left we cleared. Should also mention that it really does help if people have done their level 70 job quest.

When I was done with it I thought to myself that it would be really interesting if they happened to make a EX version. But seeing how everybody is complaining about how hard it is, that will never happen.

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Originally Posted by Max06012015

When I was done with it I thought to myself that it would be really interesting if they happened to make a EX version. But seeing how everybody is complaining about how hard it is, that will never happen.

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Um... no. Its guaranteed to happen. The wandering minstrel does an ex version of the end of scenario fight for each expansion. Look for the minstrel version in either patch 4.05 or 4.1. Will have the standard ex fight loot(mount music and weapons most likely).

Royal Menagerie isn't even hard if you pay attention. But a lot of players have trouble doing even that.