SE before you lock the i270 str accessories

Please realise that if your solution to fix the current state of tanking accessories is to just lock us out of the 270, then your messing up. I have a feeling this may be your knee jerk reaction to band-aid fix the issue but i want it to be clear that this is NOT going to fix the fundamental issues with tank stats, It will only give us less options to deal with how you have messed up the damage calculations. What we want is vit scaling, or str added to accessories. Don\\'t go blocking us from using a player created fix to the problem without addressing the actual issue of tanks damage only scaling from str.

If they lock 270 items. people will just wear the 240/250/260 Accessories. Still more damage than Vit.

It doesn't matter if they get locked or not. The real issue about wearing VIT accessories can already be seen - tanks end up with way more HP than they really need.

I feel like tanks will soon become just a mindless class that just has to sit there and take damage and not worry or think about anything, because dying will be impossible, and dealing damage becomes almost negligible. At least that's how it feels like for Warrior. At first I thought "hey, with VIT accessories maybe now I can tank in Deliverance". Turns out your damage drops so much, you don't even build up enough agro to do that properly.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

If they lock 270 items. people will just wear the 240/250/260 Accessories. Still more damage than Vit.

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If they did this, I am certain they will lock every 60 accessory equipable at level 60. At that point, you may as well take the Vit and meld STR VI.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

It doesn't matter if they get locked or not. The real issue about wearing VIT accessories can already be seen - tanks end up with way more HP than they really need.

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To a developer, this tends to sound "so, you mean we need to make raid bosses hit WAY harder... gotcha"

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

If they did this, I am certain they will lock every 60 accessory equipable at level 60. At that point, you may as well take the Vit and meld STR VI.



To a developer, this tends to sound "so, you mean we need to make raid bosses hit WAY harder... gotcha"

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Why would that be a problem? I mean I'm a huge proponent of str accessories. I think tanks should have to minmax their damage on top of proper cooldown management, but if str accessories get locked I would definitely want the bosses to hit way harder. Otherwise, the content is extremely trivial.

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

To a developer, this tends to sound "so, you mean we need to make raid bosses hit WAY harder... gotcha"

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If they're a good developer, it should sound more like, "So maybe we need to rethink about how we design tanks a bit more. People don't seem to like the current state and the tank population is dwindling; there's also forum threads from both the English and Japanese communities asking for changes, so we should probably take this as a sign."

The Vit+Str scaling was such a great change; there was no need to revert it back to a pure Str scaling, at least not without any adjustments to make enmity generation scale off Vit somehow.

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Originally Posted by Kyt

Why would that be a problem? I mean I'm a huge proponent of str accessories. I think tanks should have to minmax their damage on top of proper cooldown management, but if str accessories get locked I would definitely want the bosses to hit way harder. Otherwise, the content is extremely trivial.

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I don't think it would be a problem if healing can keep up with it. But I also think it's not the reaction many are expecting. A lot of people seem to want to get away with gimping as much as possible their survivability in favor of damage, and will scream bloody murder if enemies simply become deadlier.

Honestly, the fact that you were able to tank the whole of A10S in Deliverance, to the point where you were made fun of for being a "bad Warrior" if you used Defiance, does make me open my arms towards heavier damage from bosses.

I used to often change between Defiance and Deliverance to try and make things easier for my healers in certain situations, yet some players would have me believe you only needed Defiance to build up agro. I hated that concept!

But now that they pretty much ruined stance swapping for Warriors, I'm not sure I still want that kind of playstyle. Only times I ever feel like switching back to Deliverance now is during tank swaps.

I think I'm in agreement with you, but it can be hard to achieve when the content you are tackling slowly rewards you with gear that makes you even more survivable. The game needs to allow the content be cleared without that gear, and once you get the gear, you will now likely have enough overhead to sacrifice survivability in favor of damage. It can be challenging to get that meaningful upgrade path, while at the same time keeping the challenge, unless the only reward from doing new content is about looks and frills.

Actually, you're right. One of the things I always hated about Diablo III was that you grinded dungeons at a certain difficulty, just to get items that would simply allow you to do the things you were ALREADY doing, but at a harder difficulty. Except this "harder difficulty" simply had monsters with higher HP. No new mechanics or challenges, just more durable bosses.

So if the only incentive of getting new equipment is "more survivability", despite the fact that we were able to do just fine without said new equipment, there would be no point in getting them.

The problem, if SE's reaction to the current system is simply to lock off the older accessories, is that it doesn't solve the fundamental issue here, which is that right-side Fending gear doesn't contribute to Attack Power. If you can't use Slaying gear of any level, then the best accessories to use are going to be the ones with the best secondary stats - meaning that an i300 Crit/Det dungeon drop will be better than an i340 Tenacity/Skill accessory from Savage - and expensive pentamelded crafted gear is almost guaranteed to be tank BiS over any tomestone or raid accessories.

But honestly, I don't think we're saying anything that SE doesn't already know - that there was nothing wrong with the 3.5 calculations, and that the 4.0 changes create a dozen problems that were already solved a year and a half ago. Their position seems to be that tanks should just deal very low damage, at any cost - even if they create massive balance issues and un-fix already-solved problems in the process.

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

I think I'm in agreement with you, but it can be hard to achieve when the content you are tackling slowly rewards you with gear that makes you even more survivable. The game needs to allow the content be cleared without that gear, and once you get the gear, you will now likely have enough overhead to sacrifice survivability in favor of damage. It can be challenging to get that meaningful upgrade path, while at the same time keeping the challenge, unless the only reward from doing new content is about looks and frills.

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I think that's how they intended it to work, but they underestimate the overachievers and overestimated the underachievers. Honestly I think the best answer for this is to just have multiple raiding tiers. I mean, they tried to do this to an extent but what we got was easy mode and savage - which is why so many statics fell apart through Gordias - there was no middle ground difficulty like the old coil raids. It was either face rolls or finger blisters lol.

Just my opinion, but there should be Story, Hard, and Savage. This would *ideally* please all groups, and the content is already there all they have to do is modify the formulas a bit for each tier.

I know that doesn't have anything to do with 270 accessories - it's just one part of the problem.

In 3.x, tanks with high-end gear were able to surpass or come pretty close to the DPS of damage-dealing classes who didn't have the same level of gear. That was a good incentive for tanks to seek out better gear.

Now imagine if new accessories add very little to the tank's damage... there would be no point in getting them, other than to raise your ilvl. I mean, it's already happening right now! After clearing Lakshmi Extreme, I find myself wondering why I should bother painfully clearing her over and over, when at the end of the day I'm fine with the HP I currently have and deal more damage with 270 accessories. -_-

My 2 cents: if the game allows you to tank in DPS stance, then the game is not penalizing you enough for going into DPS stance. There should be a bigger penalty for dropping tanking stance. I would say add a heavy -VIT to DPS stances, but the DRK is a weird job that technically is either In DPS stance or not. I'm of the mind that jumping into DPS stance should make you as vulnerable to attacks as a DRG with VIT melds.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

In 3.x, tanks with high-end gear were able to surpass or come pretty close to the DPS of damage-dealing classes who didn't have the same level of gear. That was a good incentive for tanks to seek out better gear.

Now imagine if new accessories add very little to the tank's damage... there would be no point in getting them, other than to raise your ilvl. I mean, it's already happening right now! After clearing Lakshmi Extreme, I find myself wondering why I should bother painfully clearing her over and over, when at the end of the day I'm fine with the HP I currently have and deal more damage with 270 accessories. -_-

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That's a very good point. I doubt they will ever change this, but would be intriguing if they changed Tenacity to simply remove part of the damage penalty you get from your Tanking stance. Obviously would have to be carefully balanced so they can keep giving you higher values throughout the expansion (before the eventual reset.)

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

I'm of the mind that jumping into DPS stance should make you as vulnerable to attacks as a DRG with VIT melds.

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Well that's very easy to facilitate: Reduce the DEF/MDEF on tank equip to DRG levels.

Done. PLD would still be mildly tankier due to the ability to block, but that's it, really.

At that point, though, you could give every DPS a stance that reduces damage taken and gives some spells higher enmity, then do away with the concept of dedicated tanks entirely, as the stance is all that matters and you can just give it to everyone.

Just remove the advantage by which any Fending accessory has more Vitality than a Slaying/Aiming/Casting/Healing accessory has Strength/Dexterity/Intelligence/Mind.
(This has already mostly been done by i300, wherein they vary by 2%, down from, say, the 9.6% difference at i276.)

Then, give Vitality an AP multiplier between .75 and .8. Give no AP whatsoever for Strength. Lock them into Fending Accessories. Now tanks actually get to pick what materia to meld.

If the mere use of Vitality accessories at that point still seems to bloat tank health and/or survivability, you have two further options:
- Reduce Vitality accessories to some 10% to 15% less stat given than other accessories of the same item level, but increase the AP modifier. This would only decrease eHP bloat.
Or
- Reduce the Defense and Magic Defense of tank gear by 10 to 20%. The latter would be approximate to averaging its defense with that of Dragoon gear. This would also require more healing to be done.

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

I'm of the mind that jumping into DPS stance should make you as vulnerable to attacks as a DRG with VIT melds.

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It doesn't matter the even if we were as vulnerble as a drg or had the same hp as one, we would still tank in dps stance. The fact is we have so many cds that you can just super cooldown one buster invuln the next one, tank swap and continue the same pattern. Unless there is constant like every second tank busters, tanking in your tank stance is never going to be a thing. And if they did that then healers would have to heal full time instead of dps and the dps would have to carry all the weight in a group, which is fine if you want WOW levels of toxicity. Because if it's only on dps to provide the damage then I'm going to be kicking every dps not doing 90+percentile dps and then proceeding to flame the living hell out of them for sucking at their class because, hey SE decided it's 100% on you guys to kill the boss now and we can't "skip soar"

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

It doesn't matter the even if we were as vulnerble as a drg or had the same hp as one, we would still tank in dps stance. The fact is we have so many cds that you can just super cooldown one buster invuln the next one, tank swap and continue the same pattern.

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When I say make them vulnerable, I would go after everything, one way or another. All those defensive cool downs would be disabled, cancel on stance switch, be extremely weaker, or simply do something entirely different in DPS stance (not unlike Thrill of Battle.)

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

I would go after everything, one way or another. All those defensive cool downs would be disabled, cancel on stance switch, be extremely weaker,

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Um then what exacty do you propose we do? Sit in tank stance and flash? No cds so no reason to learn the fight, im in tank stance doing nothing so i will survive everything!!! That the best idea i have ever heard man, just make it where i LITERALLY DO NOTHING besides stand around in tank stance and let the healer heal me,. We are gonna get sooooooo many more tanks with this change!!!(Sarcasm) And like I said that would just make us as toxic as WOW. Your not above 90th percentile? Kicked for sucking at your class. You dared to die once as a dps? Flames in front of the party for sucking at the game, kicked, blacklisted. The reason this game is better than WOW is that we can do things as a tank and healer, if SE takes that away half the game would quit, and the half that stayed? Lul

The problem is that Strength is the primary stat for tanks right now, not Vitality.

Vitality increases our HP (i.e. survivability). STR increases our self-healing power (also survivability), threat generation, and DPS. If one stat increases everything and the other only increases one thing, which one is the primary stat? In fact, STR even increases our total HP pool for an encounter by vastly more than VIT.

I know what you're thinking, if the tank doesn't have enough HP for the tank buster the party will wipe. That's true. It's also true that if the healers don't have enough HP for a phase change ultimate the party will wipe. Is Vitality the primary healer stat? No, because Mind increases their healing output.

As of 4.0 Vitality is no more the tank primary stat than it is the healer primary stat. Locking tanks out of the i270 accessories instead of putting STR on the new accessories just means you're locking tanks out of their primary stat on the entire right side. That's quite stupid.

It also means tanks would have to buy materia in order to access their primary stat on every single accessory they acquire. So you're putting a massive financial burden on playing the role that is in shortest supply that doesn't exist for the other two roles. That's unspeakably stupid.

SE, please think very very hard about if you want to discourage people from tanking right as you add 2 DPS to the game.

Just replace Tenacity with Str on the tank accessories, scale it where it needs to be. I vehemently was against the str/vit changes in 3.0 because it really did reduce our output and self heals and enmity gains, but since vit goes way higher, it sclaed in tanks favor after some 30 ilevels of so. I cant believe theyd go back and then mess up the accessories so they arent even a consideration to improve our performance while dps are getting well over 400 more attack power(enmity generation as well)

even with STR6 melds our attack power is slowly gained through the left side and sits still on the right
4.1 notes - The enmoty generated in shield oath/defiance/Grit has been increased
4.2 notes The enmity generated in Shield oath/defiance/Grit has been increased
4.3 notes The enmity generated in shield oath/defiance/Grit has been increased
T

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Originally Posted by Araxes

If they lock 270 items. people will just wear the 240/250/260 Accessories. Still more damage than Vit.

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And what happenes when they lock those too? How far down the rabbit hole are you going to go?

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

And what happenes when they lock those too? How far down the rabbit hole are you going to go?

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The i145 ring is the first one where the strength you get outweighs what you can meld, so that one