Honest Review of Combos and a Suggestion

First I would like to state that I have a love - hate relationship with combos right now, and I am going to be as unbiased as humanly possible in making this review. My main intention for writing this is to provide the developers with some feedback, and allow for a serious discussion on the implementation of the combo system.

Most of my experience with the combo system, so far, has been with my Marauder and Lancer, so most of the conclusions will draw heavily from these classes; however, I have had a chance to try my THM out, and as far as I know, there are no positioning requirements for the Fire > Fira > Firaga type combos.

__________

Now, I will start off by saying, I understand this is a very early implementation of the system, and, therefore, is in an incomplete state or essentially a beta version which will be modified several times in the future. This only enhances the purpose of this thread, as I want to help the developers make more player-driven adjustments.

What is Good?

• Positioning/Movement

The new system clearly has made positioning a factor, as before positioning only mattered either to avoid enemy actions or incapacitation. Positioning is incentivized for two reasons: to activate combos and to maximize weaponskill power. Taken separately, however, each mechanic alone would have accomplished the same result.

What is Bad?

• TP waiving

This is a bit complicated, but understanding why this seminal feature and how it has effected the balancing and implementation of the combo system is important. First, by waiving the TP cost of the proceeding weapon skills, the damage of the weapon skills and the rate in which TP is accumulated has been reduced. These, taken alone, are not a significant ordeal, as they are merely relative and have no real bearing for a new player. However, when coupled with the next point I wish to make, I think the problem facing combat will become clear.

• No Choice

No Choice amounts to No Strategy. In combat there are a few combos to choose from; however, these combos are defined for very specific situations and there is no real divergence from the set actions for each combo.

Take Marauder for example. There are arguably three roles to engage in battle: Tank, Single Target DD, and Multiple Target DD. And for each of these three roles there is a clearly designated combo. Tank being Heavy Strike > Skull Sunder; Single Target DD being Brutal Swing > Maim > Godsbane; Multiple Target DD being Storm's Path > Whirlwind.

In each of these situations, there can be no deviation from the specified combo, as it is always the optimal choice.

The Result
Taking TP Waiving and the limited choices together, there is one clear result. There is no situation where I would use nearly half of my weapon skills outside of a combo. And, depending on whatever role I assume, I will rarely use more than 1/3 of my weapon skills.

My Suggestion

• Remove TP Waiving
• Reduce TP Costs
• Keep enhancement of Weaponskills by Positioning
• Remove Positioning Requirements for Combos
• Increase Quantity of Combinations and Effects

This outline vaguely represents what my suggestion will entail, but I will try to elaborate further.

Removing the TP Waiving is significant, as it then forces choice. With the current combo system, the choice is simple; 3 weapon skills for the price of 1. By removing the TP Waiving, you must choose to either to deal damage now or save your TP for a more devastating combo. As a result, you cannot keep the new TP costs. 6,000 TP for a combo would be hard to accquire, given the max TP is 3,000 and the difficulty in accquiring 3,000 more TP through the duration of your combo sequence. My suggestion would be something around 500 > 1000 > 2000, and the finishing move could allow any extra TP to increase damage or the combo's effect.

The new positioning is a positive improvement, but I would like it decoupled from the combo system entirely. Placing enhanced damage, for example, on certain weaponskills (Brutal Swing for example) would accomplish this alone. By decoupling the positioning requirements from the combo system, combos can be made freely regardless of role albeit at the cost of some effectiveness.

Finally, combos should be made freely and the skills used should be at our discretion. For example, if I have 3000 TP, the combo should be something I form. Whether it is Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder (For extra enmity) > Whirlwind (For extra Enmity and AOE as an example). Every skill should be chainable, so long as we can get the TP to do it. Because a limitation is made by TP and not arbitrary action, we will only be able to chain a few skills still, yet the variance in effects and skills used are greatly increased.

I just realized, for FFXI players, you could think of this simply as the ability to do self skill chains. So, you could either just use skills randomly, or do them in a certain order to gain certain effects.

I honestly dont see whats so bad about situational...in fact I love that you get a specified combo for each situation (taking the mrd example I mean(

My HATE with the combo system is lag.

Im currently leveling Gladiator and my biggest issue is UI lag.

I use fast blade into savage blade combo because its all I have available to combo with at lvl 27..

The issue is...after the first combo I carefully wait for savage blade to cooldown to reuse it in a combo...the issue is THE COOLDOWN ON SKILLS IS A LIE. I wind up having to wait like 10 extra seconds after it cool downs because the damn game tells me "its not available to use right now" despite the cooldown already has gone away.

This has messed up my combos SO many times.

Have played as archer myself mostly, so im talking out from that:

Remove TP Waiving

- No, please dont, it gives us a reason to use the combos. One extra attack for free tp is great, and it is great that we have to earn it.

Reduce TP Costs

- This has already been done pretty much, tp waiving is a great way to get more tp while also being able to use other skills.

Keep enhancement of Weaponskills by Positioning

- Yeah, its a great thing, though with archer, solo 8 yards away ... not that easy really. We need to have one of them be less than 8 yards away or something, so we got something for both sitations.

Remove Positioning Requirements for Combos

- Nah, it is a part of the combo, if they remove it, it is like getting double damage without doing anything, then they could just remove tp and mana from the game instead

Increase Quantity of Combinations and Effects

- pretty sure this is being done as we speak, but remember, this game isnt ten year old, meaning it is still lots of stuff to be added.

Quote:

---

Remove TP Waiving

- No, please dont, it gives us a reason to use the combos. One extra attack for free tp is great, and it is great that we have to earn it.

---

I think you only enhance my point when you state that. If there was no TP Waiving... why do combos at all? The Combo Effect.

Quote:

---

Reduce TP Costs

- This has already been done pretty much, tp waiving is a great way to get more tp while also being able to use other skills.

---

As I said, TP waiving does something much different than simply reduce the TP costs. It gives you 3 weaponskills at the cost of 1. There is NO reason to simply do 1 > 2, when you can do 1 > 2 > 3. There is not mitigating factor in deciding that, as it is simply free damage. If you have a pool of 3,000 TP and, let's say 3 weapon skills each costing 500; 1000; and 2000. You could do 500 > 1000 and save your extra TP for a separate combo OR you could do 500 > 1000, build 500 TP along the way, and do 2000 at the end. The point being, there is no choice in the current system. You just do 1 > 2 > 3, and anything else is pointless. You can't simply use 3, as you can do 1 > 2 > 3, and even if you could do 2 > 3, there would be no point, as you can do 1 > 2 > 3. With my suggestion, you could do 2 > 3, or 1 > 3 or even more interesting things like 1 > 2 > 2 > 3, or 1 > 1 > 2 > 3.

Quote:

---

Remove Positioning Requirements for Combos

- Nah, it is a part of the combo, if they remove it, it is like getting double damage without doing anything, then they could just remove tp and mana from the game instead

---

The weaponskills would still require positioning, but, as I stated, it would allow all roles access to all combos. They still lose the benefit of the enhanced damage from the weaponskills by not positioning themselves correctly though.

As a MRD DD, I only have one effective combo against a single target. Brutal Swing > Maim > Godsbane. I can keen flurry to do it again, but when Godsbane is down, I do Brutal Swing > Maim. And I'm saying, yes this is MUCH better than last patch, as previously I would only do 3k TP Maim and brutal swings from behind. But, just taking the changes to brutal swing, I would be moving regardless if they had added combos. So, it is actually just redundant to place them in both areas, unless it was specifically designed to limit the skills we would want to use, which IMO is counter productive.

500 + 1000 + 2000 = 3500
how will you do a combo like that?

archer's combo abilithies starts with 1k, meaning second must be 1k and finishing must be 1k. We dont have more than 3k tp, and if we had, it would take 2 minutes to get enough to do ONE combo. I do believe they thought pretty much through this. Its simple math anyone can see ^^
Btw, the combo effect alone isnt enough to make the combo worthwhile, if it was like that, id rather just use the strongest skill i got over and over.

edit:

"all roles access to all combos" one thing: read patch notes, the point of combos is that theire exclusive.

I think you're misunderstanding. As MRD, why should I not be able to do certain combos that are exclusive to Marauder?

Secondly,

Quote:

---

500 + 1000 + 2000 = 3500
how will you do a combo like that?

---

500 TP is one hit, that will fall between the 1000 > 2000.

And they don't have to be 1,000 each. You could use invigorate and get some 4000 TP combos in.

I have a serious question to ask, what is the point of using a skill that costs 3000 TP alone, when you can chain it in a combo for 1,500 TP? Do you see how there is no situation when you would?

if you use any skill, any attack in the middle of the combo, the combo is cancelled.

you need 3k tp to be able to use that skill in the combo.

I wanted to have a serious discussion, I'll address your last point:

Quote:

---

if you use any skill, any attack in the middle of the combo, the combo is cancelled.

you need 3k tp to be able to use that skill in the combo.

---

Auto attack is the only ability that generates TP, Auto Attack does not interrupt combos, therefore, auto attack can generate tp in the middle of combo sequences and allow you to make combos that require more than your maximum TP.

ah sorry, it doesnt work like that on archer so didnt know. We throw a rock that does 20 damage as auto-attack, so i kinda do my best not to use it, also it build no tp either.

If one use the shot "auto" attack we got, we gain tp, but it breaks combo. So if waive would dissappear, then tp would have to dissappear from archer completely too.

I had thought that light shot or whatever it is called now did not interfere with combos, if that is the case, then that should be changed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roaran

I had thought that light shot or whatever it is called now did not interfere with combos, if that is the case, then that should be changed.

---

Yeah, if that was fixed im not sure id be as much against it :P But we would need some tp gain skills back then ^^
Also, theres a few more bugs with light shot, maybe i should just make a bug report ...

When equipping a faster bow, you wont shoot faster, only the auto-attack becomes faster, which does 20 damage. Light shot still takes 4.5 second, even with my 3.3 second bow :(

Glad to see a topic about this. Personally, I still need more time with the new system before judging it. The thing that sticks out is the free weaponskills when you successfully combo. Shouldn't the combo bonus be the main incentive to combo? Before, TP was the determining factor in when you weaponskilled. Now the end-of-combo weaponskills are more restricted by recast timers. You can't choose to spend your TP on them, even if you want to because they are just not available. I don't know what to think of this yet.

Every combat system goes through these problems. Eventually the Community will find the optimal combo or weapon skill even if they did adopt your suggestions. I rather the developers streamline it themselves and make it accessible to all of us and not just the people who read up on games. While i do not think the system is flawless, the more i play with it the more tightknit and well designed i find it.

Pre 1.20. i think Lancer had the most diverse and balanced set of weapon skills. And i thought MRD kind of had a crappy set of weapon skills that felt like clones of each other.

Leveling up as a Mrd and just hitting 50 today gave me some time to learn the ins and outs of abilities as they were introduced. Its true that your combo selection is set in stone for the different scenarios, but the fun and decision making comes from setting up the combo with your fellow party members. The combat Scenarios that you get into this game are always black and white as spank the monster while the tank has agro, especially if you're going through the beastmen strongholds.

Before a large focus of this game was AOEs, and it was initially shocking and frustrating to me but now i'm good with it because setting up whirlwind takes some thought and is interesting, even though weather or not to use it is no brainer.

There are a lot of times when i do a Raw non comboed WS and this is mostly because my cooldown timer is down and i have tp to burn before i end up wasting it. The trick to this is picking which one and planning ahead so that you do not impede your combo action in the future. I especially like doing Whirlwind raw even though the cost is 3k tp, and that's because i had a good rampage going and i dont want to lose it because that effect outweighs the damage of a combo. Or Maybe it is, if you are going to be able to finish the fight/save your party for it.

There is another way to gain TP and that is through Quelling Strike. If you use it on your combo opener or a raw WS, then it just reduces the cost a bit, but if you use it on your tp free follow up attacks then you get free tp (assuming that you hit ). Problem with this is if you're trying to keep hate, the free tp maybe isn't worth sacrificing possible hate for. Another Decision. What buffs you use to power up specific attacks in the string of the combo are also another thing to consider.

I've been focusing on trying to get my raw auto attack to be more proficient, because it seems that is the focus of MRD compared to the other Melees. We're slow hitters and TP also gains slow because of it, so how i treat my weapon skills matters. Its a stark contrast to LNC, which combo's up the butt and always has TP, ways to gain tp, and ways to spend tp.

So in conclusion, the current system the way it is is easier to balance. Having something more complex and harder to design does not mean that people wont eventually find their 3 combo's to end it all. There are bigger things in battle to think about.

I agree with everything the OP says. I voiced the lack of choice concern when the combo system was announced and it seems like my fears became reality. When you incentivize certain actions too heavily, they become the only choice even in situations where they seem less optimal.

For example, let's assume Storm's Path > Whirlwind was the only combo MRD can produce. It's an AOE combo, but you'd probably keep using it against single targets as well. A free WS is such an overwhelmingly significant bonus that almost all other factors pale in comparison. It penalized reactive play and encourages formulaic repetition of an optimal seuqence regarless of game state.

I was also disappointed to learn that the combo system was for individuals only with no cooperation required (other than to keep the target's facing steady). Perhaps the intention is to build on it with party combos that trigger when one player performs a combo and another one "links" them by finishing with a different combo?

I think I'd like to emphasize a few points.

With the current system, the only way you can expand upon current combos is either by adding new weapon skills, or altering current ones. For example, if you have three weaponskills and they combo in this fashion 1 > 2 > 3, and you add another weaponskill to the class, 4. You can have the following example: 1 > 2 > 4. The 4 could be put in essentially any order, as it is an arbitrary decision by the developers, but by adding a weaponskill to a current combination you do create choice and subsequently strategy. The problem with this is... it requires new skills to create new combos. Whereas the alternative, simply altering which skills can be combo'd and in what fashion they are sequenced does not require any additional weaponskills. The former adds a limited amount of choice and strategy, the latter creates the MAXIMUM amount of choice and strategy possible.

If you take a look at archer, they can make use of 3-4 combos at any time. And it essentially does not matter what situation the combos are intended for, as they can use them in any situation. The only factor to consider in determining what combo to use, is simply understanding which combo, or even combination of combos, will lead to the greatest DPS. Although they have the same number of weapon skills, they do not require any positioning; and, as a result, they effectively have more weaponskills at their disposal under any situation.

If positioning incentives were placed in the weaponskills, instead of as requirements for the combinations, Classes with an equal number of weaponskills would have an equal number of combinations available to them at any time as well. I do like the positioning, I don't want it to go away. But, it is a flaw and a mistake to place it as a requirement in the combo system for a few reasons. First, it creates imbalance if you do not require ALL classes to share similar requirements. And I hope my final point will demonstrate an another.

The TP Waiving. I know people like this, it is awesome to have free weapon skills. But they were never really free. They came at a huge cost. Because your 3 weapon skills essentially cost only 1500 TP, FAR less than what they used to, their damage was reduced and you now gain TP slower. The immediate result of this, is longer periods of time where you are only auto attacking, with brief periods where you try to set up a combo.

However, THE MAIN reason why TP waiving is a problem is very simple. Because you can get three weapon skills for the cost of a single weapon skill. You will NEVER not combo, unless all your skills are on cooldown and you have an abundance of TP. This rarely happens. This means, you can take several weapon skills and treat them as a set of abilities that are always used together and can be considered a single, yet more complex attack. Your choices then are reduced to the follow: Wait for Auto Attack, then do Combo Sequence 1. Depending on your role, this is 100% of the choices you must make in combat. If for example, TP was not waived, you would be forced to make a much more interesting choice. Save TP for the combo, or try to deal damage now at the cost of more damage later. These are VERY significant choices! And would add depth and strategy to the game.

I think I'll just close by saying, the combo system is an improvement. It is fun, and I very much like many aspects of it. But for the future of the game, it is VERY limiting, and we may not see new combos for years to come (whenever we see new weapon skills). And even then we will always be reduced to a few combos and not really having much choice in the matter of what combos we use when.

If you take some time and think about what the following would mean for your class; just imagine playing with these changes:

• Reduce TP Costs to Original Costs
• Remove TP Waiving
• Allow Players to make Combos in whatever Sequence they want, with unique effects for all different Sequences
• Remove Positioning Restrictions from initiating Combos
• Place increased damage or increased combo effects as incentives when positioned properly

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Medura

Have played as archer myself mostly, so im talking out from that:

Remove Positioning Requirements for Combos

- Nah, it is a part of the combo, if they remove it, it is like getting double damage without doing anything, then they could just remove tp and mana from the game instead

---

From what i've heard ach doesnt have to move for any of them anyways, distance is the only issue which is why ach seems to be a prime DoW class in the moogle fight. imo they should add at least some position for ach to be in other then distance

problem with your theory is, tp waive is the main reason for doing combos, the effects are not always very useful, in the end you will end up getting people rarely using combos at all, and mostly just using their best WS repeatedly with the increased tp, look at ffxi. While im not disgreeing with your idea in totality,combos need a fairly large incentive.

I do see that for mrd there is only one option, although on lancer i was able to use different ones. I think marauders is the most black and white one, pug and lancer seem to be about setting up the combo that more directly takes advantage of your current situation, i think they need to up the amount of skills per class, because some synergies arent defined enough yet. the lancer critical mechanics, pugilist mp management mechanics, and the marauder movement mechanics arent well developed, with only single skills that work toward these ends, and usually inadequately.

Endring march for example doesnt make not moving fast a good mechanic because it limits your speed so drastically you cant do any positional combos, and its recast doesnt allow you to continue with the skills anyway. but just having that in a very small skill list kills your other possibilities for skills, and makes your play style less diverse and interesting.

positioning is meant to keep everyone from standing so still in battle, it creates a more active battle field. i wouldn't be opposed to combos having more then one position with different bonus to positions.

same combo from front cause blind, from rear extra damage.

However i dont think positioning should be removed all together. so the same combo i just mentioned would not work from sides.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by syntaxlies

However i dont think positioning should be removed all together.

---

I never suggested this. Instead of having positioning required of combos, place them as incentives for increased effects or dmg on WS or the combos.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

problem with your theory is, tp waive is the main reason for doing combos, the effects are not always very useful, in the end you will end up getting people rarely using combos at all, and mostly just using their best WS repeatedly with the increased tp, look at ffxi. While im not disgreeing with your idea in totality,combos need a fairly large incentive.

---

TP Waiving is the main reason for doing combos yes. And this is the main problem with the combo system. I've already stated it, but I'll do it again; If you can get 3 WS for the price of 1, when will you ever use just one WS? Even in MRD case, which as you suggested is probably the extreme example, Archer is probably the opposite exteme, MRD can still focus singularly on combos alone, aside from tanking there might be an occasional extra WS (But notice, the tanking MRD does not combo because there is no combo available, as they are limited to only a single combo. Granted they could move behind the mob or to the side and still pull off other combos, but I feel some Tanks may be reluctant to do that on mobs like Ifrit).

So rather than adding combos in addition to weapon skills, combos have replaced them. I think it's important to understand, you can reread my other posts for clarification; but, even though this is a very early implementation... certain specifications and mechanics make this system VERY LIMITED. The classes that have the most combos available, either have more WS available for combo or they do not have positioning requirements. It so happens that the only way we will see more combos in the future is by either gaining new WS (which means VERY LIMITED additions of possible combos) or removal of positioning requirements on the combos themselves. I would take it one step further, and allow us to combo in whatever way we want.

The incentive to combo should not be, "oh I get a free weapon skill." It should be the added effect, and there should be a choice involved... Use TP now to deal damage now, or Save TP hold Damage, for a much larger amount of damage or some special effect later on.

The only way I could see someone argue against this... is it being much more complicated in the # of potential combinations... but at the same time it is much more fluid... a newer player can grasp, "Everything combos with everything," faster than, "Okay I need to do skill X > Y > Z from position A."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roaran

My Suggestion

• Remove TP Waiving
• Reduce TP Costs
• Keep enhancement of Weaponskills by Positioning
• Remove Positioning Requirements for Combos
• Increase Quantity of Combinations and Effects

---

I'm not sure how I feel on the first two, but the last three are cause for much ire for me. I like that weapon skills can be enhanced via positioning, but I HATE that the same positioning is required to trigger a combo. I have two openers as Pugilist: one from the front and one from the back. Playing mostly solo, I find few occasions when I have 1500 TP at the beginning of a fight to assault something from behind, leaving me with half my total choices for combos. Those last three suggestions would fix everything I hate about Combos.

For how simple the combos are, I think CNJ is a good example of skills being useful outside the combos.

Aero adds a nice DoT, you can toss it out whenever you have a spare moment.

Aerora is AOE and is pretty much Dispelga. As we get more involving fights you can bet we will get enemy/boss groups that will enjoy buffing each other and making themselves a pain in the ass. Comboing Aero > Aerora limits the latter to Single Target but increases its Accuracy, allowing you to dispel/damage a single enemy within a group that you don't want to get hate on.

Stone has a low recast and lowers Earth Evasion, making it nice and spammable for damage.

Stonra has a pretty reliable Heavy effect which is amazing now that most enemies have lost their Ranged Attacks. You get more damage from the Stone > Stonra combo but it gets limited to a single target, and having a means of slowing down multiple enemies' movements can be really useful.

Of course, the simple use of non-combo'd Aerora and Stonra is to mow down weak enemies while farming =P

I genuinely have a great deal of fun with the new combo system and when we get the Team Attacks it might add an extra layer of strategy that might be appealing to you.

This is an interesting and well thought out point.
Personally, there is ALLOT that needs changed, but what you posted is on the right track.
But it feels more like its was the shortcut answer to fixing some small problems, but not all the problems. (As that would require allot more work.)

My favorite Idea, is having "Starter WSs" that cause the next 1 or 2 WSs to generate effects based on what you are trying to do.
Example.
Enmity WS
DD WS (single target)
DD WS (AoE)
Support WS

now use these to start a WS combo, then chose a "Middle Tier WS"
The middles add additional effects if chained with a 3rd.

Start with Enmity WS, which makes the next WS have the additional effect of enmity.
Select Single target for bosses with no adds, or AoE for fights with multiple enemies.

My suggestion is waived TP cost for chaining to the 2nd WS, but either lowered or full cost for a 3rd WS.
This is a mix of both ideas to an extent.

For any of this to be possible, requires allot of work, like adding more WSs etc.

I'm also a fan of long delay "Auto Attacks" that are like the original class attacks. (Heavy Swing etc)
but at least just 1.
This attack on a 45~ sec delay gives us something to do at the start of a fight, while waiting on TP. But once the fight gets going, you will be a bit more focused on other things.
(Keep the dmg and TP generation similar to normal auto attacks.)
In longer fights, this can be used inbetween the 2nd WS in a combo, and the 3rd, so as to help chose when to do 2 WS combos, or 3 WS combos.

Now the only last detail I could bring up, is the variance between options.
If it's a single target fight, you are still choosing, single target enmity, if you are tanking, and you wont vary from it too much...
Unless the effects from the other WSs are decent enough, to wanna try them every so often, when your enmity is high enough.
Which would require the previous tanking combo, to be "extra" effective, so the gamble in trying something else, won't ruin the whole run.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roaran

Removing the TP Waiving is significant, as it then forces choice. With the current combo system, the choice is simple; 3 weapon skills for the price of 1. By removing the TP Waiving, you must choose to either to deal damage now or save your TP for a more devastating combo. As a result, you cannot keep the new TP costs. 6,000 TP for a combo would be hard to accquire, given the max TP is 3,000 and the difficulty in accquiring 3,000 more TP through the duration of your combo sequence. My suggestion would be something around 500 > 1000 > 2000, and the finishing move could allow any extra TP to increase damage or the combo's effect.

---

I think TP waiving shouldn't be removed, but TP costs should be reducedfor the "correct" combos. I do agree that I dislike the way the current combo system is set up. In order to be effective in your class you're not allowed to deviate from these combos, or else you'll be wasting time. Those elitist players with parsers will be looking at you and thinking you're just being a stubborn mule for refusing to spam combos, and much of the other skills that we have really kind of lose their utility if the "best" combo to use is just this one, practical, easy to use combo with little or no positioning requirements. I also agree that any leftover TP accrued from the combo should be used as a Doomspike-style "TP dump" for the last hit to increase the power of the combo.

Quote:

---

The new positioning is a positive improvement, but I would like it decoupled from the combo system entirely. Placing enhanced damage, for example, on certain weaponskills (Brutal Swing for example) would accomplish this alone. By decoupling the positioning requirements from the combo system, combos can be made freely regardless of role albeit at the cost of some effectiveness.

---

I agree, but I also understand it is a balancing issue. The reason why DDs like Lancer do not have position requirements for their combo is because - well - they're DDs. Having position requirements would nerf their effectiveness. However, based on my experience as Gladiator, I already know why they put in a position requirement for the Riot Blade --> Rage of Halone combo, because if we were allowed to use that combo at any given time, we'd be doing some serious damage for a tank class. I do think the position bonus should be decoupled from the combo system, but there needs to be a compensation for that to make combos that do have position requirements and then become decoupled not to become too powerful.

Quote:

---

Finally, combos should be made freely and the skills used should be at our discretion. For example, if I have 3000 TP, the combo should be something I form. Whether it is Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder (For extra enmity) > Whirlwind (For extra Enmity and AOE as an example). Every skill should be chainable, so long as we can get the TP to do it. Because a limitation is made by TP and not arbitrary action, we will only be able to chain a few skills still, yet the variance in effects and skills used are greatly increased.

---

Yes, I agree with this completely. In fact, this is what I INITIALLY thought when Yoshida said we could do combos. Of course there are balance issues to think about with these new combos, and to be honest I think, as you pointed out, the issue is that this system is its infancy and maybe, down the line, they'll have plans to add new combos, so this part will probably (I'm being optimistic here) addressed in the future.

As I've said before, the combo system currently restricts what we can do, as the optimal thing to do right now ARE combos. Deviation from that system hurts your party in terms of raw damage output, so I do think the combo system needs a bit more refining. Allow us to do (Street Fighter Alpha 2 term here) Custom Combos and require us to use TP to do them. If you want to make things more challenging - keep the current 10-15 second timer on the combo requirement - that way we'll have to skillfully find a way to time our combos and even the hits we take so we get enough TP to make our Custom Combos. If we find players are unable to pull off good combos with the 10-15 second timer, increase the timer to 15-20 seconds to compensate for the fact that the TP cost isn't waived.

Great discussion post Rohan. Keep it up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bahn

In order to be effective in your class you're not allowed to deviate from these combos, or else you'll be wasting time.

---

This is exactly why I have problems with the new system. Why did they think it was a good idea to force a certain playstyle in this manner? The combo system is, as usual, a good idea on paper, but the implementation is flawed. I hope you are right about them addressing it in the future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bahn

The reason why DDs like Lancer do not have position requirements for their combo is because - well - they're DDs. Having position requirements would nerf their effectiveness.

---

So, what am I as a Pugilist? I feel more like a DD than a tank, but I have major positioning requirements in all of my combos. I have to start from either the front or back, then move to the side at some point in the combo. It makes for some very difficult soloing when I can't fire off a combo from start to finish without moving, and possibly missing the direction due to miscues or server lag, resulting in a failed combo attempt. For me, it's just another good idea gone bad.

Why TP Waiving has to be removed.
I think just about everyone disagrees with my suggestion to remove TP Waiving. For the combo system to make any significant changes and to become even slightly more flexible, the TP Waiving must be removed. All the restrictions on which weapon skills work together, and how many you can combine are a result of TP Waiving.

For example, if you wanted the possibility to freely combine skills, yet keep the TP Waiving, there has to be a restriction on the number of skills you could combine; otherwise, you would be able to essentially weaponskill forever (the only limitation would be cooldowns). This may be unrelated, but I also see cooldowns on weapon skills as an incredible design flaw.

In addition to the number of skills, the TP Waiving either forces the player to only use their best weapon skills, (when you can get a free WS, why choose the 500TP Weaponskill when you can use the 3000TP Weapon skill). So that incentive is already created by the players and the mechanic itself; but, the developers have decided to also force us into certain combos as well. Instead of us being able to figure out the best 3 WS to form our combos, they did it for us. (Another restriction).

So, in these two ways, the TP Waiving is an absolute restriction on the players and the developers. Although it may seem great getting free weapon skills, the balances that have to be made to allow such behavior are extremely restricting. These restrictions limit choices, and as I have said.. choices = strategy, and strategy adds depth to combat. Essentially, if you do not remove the TP waiving, you cannot have the freedom to make your own combos.

This is why I listed TP waiving as one of the most important and the worst mechanic of the combo system DESPITE knowing a lot of people think it is awesome, Because who doesn't like free stuff? But things are never really free.

I think we can all agree that the current cost of a combo is the cost of the first weapon skill; usually 1000 to 1500 TP. Because you are able to get more skills out of less TP, and therefore more damage out of less TP, they reduced the speed in which TP is accumulated for all classes.

Just incase a community rep is reading, if I were to pass along anything to the designers, it would be this following paragraph (Everything up unto this point is merely reasoning/justification - I find it hard to argue for the current system because it is so limiting, and because this is really simple changes - maybe not from a technical sense but at least conceptually extremely simple):

My suggestion is just simply this: Remove the TP Waiving first. As a result, the total cost of a certain combo increases to upwards of 5500TP. This is way over the top, so certain weapon skills need to be reduced back to what they were originally. So something now that was 1000 > 1500 > 3000 = 5500 would change to 500 > 1000 > 2000 = 3500. Because TP waiving is removed, you would be allowed to combine these weapon skills in ANY ORDER you wished. so 1 > 2 > 3 would be the best, but let's say a monster is almost dead, you could simply just do 2 > 3 right away, or 1 > 3. The real cost of the Weapon skill is the time it takes to acquire the TP. You wouldn't have to do any real balancing changes, if you simply increase the speed in which TP accumulated. So, by removing the TP waiving, and reducing TP costs, and increasing TP accumulation... skills could stay essentially the same... but you would have the option of combining them in whichever order you wanted. This = MORE FREEDOM, MORE CHOICES, MORE STRATEGY.

I would just like to put my support behind removing the positioning requirement for combos. I also agree that there are other issues with the system concerning TP and the way you're basically locked into doing 1 combo. If they just kept the positional effects as an incentive but not a requirement that would help even the playing field for the DD that are struggling to be considered useful in our 2 end game fights.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roaran

...

---

I have been thinking about it, and I think a good way to improve upon the restrictive elements of the combo system without pissing off everyone by removing TP costs, would be to classify each weapon skill by tier. For example, you have a max of 3 WS linked together, so the first would be the tier 1 WS, the 2nd tier 2, and the big bad one tier 3. Then just allow any tier 1 to combo into a tier 2, and any tier 2 to combo into any tier 3. Then we at least have some kind of freedom in combo choice. TP costs would have to be equalized per tier, of course, and shouldn't exceed 2000 at the top, imo.

At that point, I think people would be receptive to a simple reduction in TP costs when executed in a combo. Perhaps a flat 500TP per combo WS, or executed at 1/4 the normal cost. The biggest problem with just removing the TP waive aspect is that it also removes the incentive for utilizing the combo. Why combo if you don't get anything out of it? The TP savings is vital for the success of the system. They just went a bit too far with it.

Edit: In my example above, opening up combos to cross-class weapon skills yields even more choice.

I'm not suggesting the reduced TP costs be an effect of the combos. I think best way to explain would be a few examples...

Currently if we want to do a combo with three weapon skills, assuming none of which are on cooldown, the cost to deliver this combo is 1500 TP. Now, if we remove the TP Waiving, this combo, instead, would cost upwards of 6,000TP. This simply would not work at all, so I suggest reducing the cost of each individual WS without any consideration of combos whatsoever. So, if the combo sequence in regard to TP cost looked previously like 1,500 > X > X; and each weapon skill individually cost 1,500, 1500, and 3,000... (This is a good reason why it is incredibly stupid to WS outside of combos)... these skill would then, under my suggestion, individually cost 500, 1000, 2000; and, together as a combination would total 3,500TP. The speed in which you accumulate TP would also be increased.

Now, if this were to be implemented, you could make any combination you wanted, as the limiting factor is the accumulation of TP, and the only factor to balance are the combo effects.

Just to consider the possibilities:

Current System:
You have roughly 4-6 combinations, depending on class and if you consider 1 > 2, which is a part of 1 > 2 > 3, to be a separate combo. Notice the combinations only move in one direction, so there is one limiting factor on the potential combo effects. But, 4-6 combinations would be the sum total number of possible combinations and therefore combo effects. The only way to add onto this is to implement additional weapon skills or one of my suggestions.

My Suggestion:
If you included all of my suggestions, you could have the following....
Assume you have 5 weapon skills with the following TP Costs: 1 @500TP; 2@1000TP; 3@1000TP; 4@1500TP; 5@2000TP.
These are just some of the possible combinations....

1 > 2 Costing 1,500TP

We can get creative and start assigning combo effects. Let's say that for 1 > 2, the effect is 10% increased damage for 2 and all following weapon skills that are apart of the current combo sequence.

Next, 1 > 2 > 4; Costing 3,000TP.

1 > 2 would have increased damage of both 2 & 4, and, in addition, 2 > 4 would have it's own combo effect, let's say 2 > 4 cripples the enemy (lowers attack and movement speed).

You could also have:
4 > 2 > 1; still costing 3,000TP; but having different combo effects. Instead of just getting a flat increase of damage, 2 > 1, for example could become a double attack and 4 > 2 could reduce the cooldown of 4.

I'm simply just trying to point out that, the current system is so limited and there is the possibility for MUCH MUCH more creativity and choice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roaran

I'm not suggesting the reduced TP costs be an effect of the combos.

---

I understand your suggestion. I am disputing your suggestion with the argument that there must be some kind of TP savings vs. the 'normal' TP cost (for whatever is deemed 'normal') when a WS is executed through a combo, or else there will be no incentive to use combos, especially if the positioning requirements are decoupled from the additional effects (which I agree needs to happen).

I think the combos effects should be the incentive as opposed to the free weapon skills. With combo effects you can have a much more freedom in executing different combos, but with the TP waiving you really can't.

I'm not saying that there HAS to be a TP Savings and combo Vs Normal TP normal DMG choice; but, given the option... how is it possible to not be on the side of more choice more freedom and more strategy? Maybe some people find the current static and simple system much more appealing? I can't really argue with that... but for newer players I think a system that is more 'anything goes' and the only limit being how much TP you can accquire is easier to figure out than, only B X and Y, of A B C X Y Z work together and only as B > X > Y will they work.

I mean... when you think about it.. the combo system is not really a COMBO system. Your individual skills are no longer really individual skills, they're just parts of a much more complex sequence. You don't really use them as single skills anymore. You can think of it like this:

The individual skills A, B, C; are now to be thought of as simply the single sequence [ABC]. Instead of having A, B, C, X, Y, Z, J, K, L.... you have 3 sequences... [ABC]; [JKL]; and, [XYZ]. And there's very little if no mixing of these... like a [ABX]. So, you can't really call it a combo system... as much as a sequence system. Although the skills are more complicated... we've had our skill set reduced in number. Instead of 9 choices to make at any one time, you have 3 choices. The 3 choices may be more complicated than each of the 9 choices previously... but it just reduces the strategy that much further.

Oh believe me, I'm right there with you on the matter of choice. I agree choice is king and one of those things where more is good. That is why I suggested an alternative combo system above. I think the only place we differ is on the issue of whether or not to reduce TP costs as incentive to utilize combos. I don't see enough incentive to use combos based upon the additional effects alone, as it is the positioning requirements that are the biggest thorn in my side. I would gladly give up most of the additional effects if I could start a combo from any direction and complete it without moving. Maybe that's just me, I dunno. That is why I feel there would be no incentive to use a combo if I didn't have some TP savings in the process, as I would just use whatever WS gave me the best damage output per TP cost.

biggest problem is the cooldowns i think. the damage isnt so high to justify them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by syntaxlies

biggest problem is the cooldowns i think. the damage isnt so high to justify them.

---

I think this is true, but if you look at FFXI for example, there were no cooldowns and TP costs were generally equal. So there was no choice at all, you simply went with whatever WS was the best. I think they may have wanted to prevent this, by first making different TP costs, but also adding cooldowns so we would then use different weapon skills while we wait for cooldowns.

I think if you had a real combo system, and the combo effects were potent enough, people would use all their skills in an effective way without needing any cooldowns at all.

TP costs should be determined in proportion to the demand to use them. This may sound kind of weird... but it's probably the most accurate description possible. The demand can be related to the effects... damage or otherwise. I think once you balance these the choice and strategy comes from which of these skills are better for each situation. Then you add a combo system and potent combo effects and it becomes even more essential to use different skills.

Basically we've had a bunch of different system integrated into one another, yet they're not in the form where they all work together. Because they still hold on to many of their own characteristics, ones that were designed without any consideration of these new additions, they don't function entirely well together. So, it's probably important for Yoshi or some of the head battle designers to start looking at the future and getting a bigger picture of where they want to go... and how to put all these different mechanics together.

@Blaise,
I totally agree with you on one point. If you just eliminate the TP Waiving, there's hardly any incentive at all to use the combos. But.... if you also take it one step further, there's hardly any incentive to use a lot of the skills you have, as they cost way too much in proportion to their effects. So, there would be balancing needed, both to adjust the potency of weapon skills and their combo effects. But... by reducing costs and the rate in which TP accumulates, it becomes less necessary to do those real technical balances that take lots of time and testing. Plus it speeds up combat quite a bit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roaran

@Blaise,
I totally agree with you on one point. If you just eliminate the TP Waiving, there's hardly any incentive at all to use the combos. But.... if you also take it one step further, there's hardly any incentive to use a lot of the skills you have, as they cost way too much in proportion to their effects. So, there would be balancing needed, both to adjust the potency of weapon skills and their combo effects. But... by reducing costs and the rate in which TP accumulates, it becomes less necessary to do those real technical balances that take lots of time and testing. Plus it speeds up combat quite a bit.

---

Agreed, the original TP costs do need adjusted, but I think TP accumulation doesn't need to be any slower. The most boring part of battle right now is at the beginning when I have 0 TP.

Now, if we turn around the incentive topic and instill an automatic increase in damage for any WS when used in a combo (excluding the opener, of course), then I could see a removal of the TP waive mechanic as feasible. Even so, I'd personally prefer some sort of TP return through the combo. TP has always been a commodity to me, thus I tend to use it sparingly so I don't run out (but I usually do anyway). I just feel better when I have some left over after a WS.