Really afraid SE is going to think things are fine because of the amount of WHM/SCHs

This is something I've been hearing around lately when discussing WHM and SCH with people.

There are, indeed, a lot of SCHs and especially WHMs around in endgame. People are using the amount of these healers they see around as an argument that there must be nothing wrong with them.

Just because people are playing it doesn't mean it's fine. I still play WHM because I still have faith that eventually they WILL make Lily and most importantly Confessions feel strong and fun to use. Also because I don't like the other healers.

Just a little something that I hope SE realizes. A lot of people may be playing the jobs, but many of them are not enjoying it.

That's a point indeed. I'm doing the same about sch, i don't like the other two. Tho with all the threads going around i still think they are aware of how dramatic the situation is. And we'll have knews next week already I'm sure. :)

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Originally Posted by Llynd

That's a point indeed. I'm doing the same about sch, i don't like the other two. Tho with all the threads going around i still think they are aware of how dramatic the situation is. And we'll have knews next week already I'm sure. :)

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Same here. The best we can do is voice concerns and hope for the best come 4.1. Not holding my breath but we will see.

I leveled scholar because its been my main since 2.0 and in the hopes of it getting the help it needs in the current state of things, I'm assuming most likely did the same with whm and other scholars as well. I also know a handful that said what the F*** are sch and whm? Then proceeded to dump them immediately for ast and poke fun at me daily for sticking with scholar.

I don't play scholar because i like to heal, I heal because I like to play scholar.

There is a distinct difference. And that is why I don't switch to AST or WHM. I will most likely finish the MSQ with SCH. Then switch to Redmage. I want some form of enjoyment from the game and right now, SCH doesn't provide that. Good post.

Dramatic? Pls =(

I suspect WHM is getting played lots because it's by far the best of the 3 healers in 4 man content, I'll absolutely agree that the lily mechanic is completely ignorable outside of PVP but the core kit is fantastic and it retained significantly more of it's personal DPS than either SCH or AST. Plus it can't be stressed enough that the job just flows so much better than the other healers right now. It's got significantly more depth to it's DPS gameplay.

Not going to comment on SCH as I was stating all of this a month ago but people couldn't see past their tears for WHM. Meh.

On the flipside AST is plenty powerful but just plays badly imo, too many oGCDs vs GCD abilities, the card gauge is a massive step backwards in terms of QOL and CO instantly dropping on cast because of turn to face is another classic example that demonstrates my earlier point that SE flat out don't have anyone in the class design team that understands or has any proper interest in end game healing. It's pretty clearly going to be the king of healers come Omega, but I don't want to be the one playing it.

Things are fine and people over-reacted / are over-reacting like always.

Are there some balancing issues? Yes. Could a few skills be tweaked to really increase their functionality? Of course.
Is the game or job broken because you can't Aero/Bio anymore? No. It isn't.

We can say the job is more boring - which is a personal opinion - but the goal was to streamline certain things and streamline often means simplify and simplifying a job that was perhaps more complex can make it feel sluggish and boring, but will it still be able to hold its own in a raid? Probably.

I really, really wish people would stop judging jobs when we don't even have access to the content the changes were built for - or the content built to handle these changes, I guess. I was kind of devastated by the changes to Scholar at first - on paper - and it irritates me to no end that my White Mage can practically solo heal and out DPS me when I'm doing DPS 90% of the time - something that would have been ridiculously hard for them to do a few weeks ago. But aside from having to adjust my notion of "what it means to be a Scholar" the job handles just fine and even things I thought were stupid - like Excog and Fey Union - I'm finding creative uses for in certain situations.

Things are different. That's all. And yes, some things need tweaking. I won't argue that. But White Mage and Scholar are going to pull through this. I promise.
They are both working just fine.

Just ran through the level 67 MSQ dungeon and I've never felt so helpless as a healer. Spamming Physick on the tank just to keep them alive because Eos is so weak. Can barely even Adlo them because it costs too much MP.

Still going to keep leveling SCH because its always been one of my favorite jobs (and RDM queues are murder) but I'm really hoping we can at least get a potency boost or something.

Personnaly, from what I tested / read WHM is as boring as it wae before (and maybe a little weaker)
I see it as the "easy" to play healer that will be used by beginners but my thought is that, as they take experience, they'll just fid it boring and witch on SCH or AST :/

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Originally Posted by Shai

Things are fine and people over-reacted / are over-reacting like always.

Are there some balancing issues? Yes. Could a few skills be tweaked to really increase their functionality? Of course.
Is the game or job broken because you can't Aero/Bio anymore? No. It isn't.

We can say the job is more boring - which is a personal opinion - but the goal was to streamline certain things and streamline often means simplify and simplifying a job that was perhaps more complex can make it feel sluggish and boring, but will it still be able to hold its own in a raid? Probably.

I really, really wish people would stop judging jobs when we don't even have access to the content the changes were built for - or the content built to handle these changes, I guess. I was kind of devastated by the changes to Scholar at first - on paper - and it irritates me to no end that my White Mage can practically solo heal and out DPS me when I'm doing DPS 90% of the time - something that would have been ridiculously hard for them to do a few weeks ago. But aside from having to adjust my notion of "what it means to be a Scholar" the job handles just fine and even things I thought were stupid - like Excog and Fey Union - I'm finding creative uses for in certain situations.

Things are different. That's all. And yes, some things need tweaking. I won't argue that. But White Mage and Scholar are going to pull through this. I promise.
They are both working just fine.

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If SCH is only designed to work in 8 man content then something is very wrong the job, I use to main a SCH but it's just frustrating to play now.

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Originally Posted by Shai

I really, really wish people would stop judging jobs when we don't even have access to the content the changes were built for - or the content built to handle these changes, I guess. .

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But shouldn't a job be enjoyable on all content?

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Originally Posted by Shai

I really, really wish people would stop judging jobs when we don't even have access to the content the changes were built for - or the content built to handle these changes, I guess.

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There's more to the game than Savage raids. If SCH isn't fun in dungeons or trials that's a problem because most people spend their time there.

Playing SCH at the moment because it's been my main since 2.x, and first job I got to 70. I plan on getting all healers to 70 as soon as I can to see if any of the other two are more manageable than SCH - honestly, it's the first time in ages I've ever felt anything close to helpless in dungeons on SCH :/ Apparently all tanks are of the opinion that since healers can't DPS as hard as we could before, it's outrduty to be able to heal through every and anything no matter how many packs of trash they decide to pull and no matter how squishier they've become/cooldowns they have available.

I don't doubt that SCH could be, and probably is, viable in savage content, but I'd like to have something more reliable that embrace spam and wonky fairy AI to heal dungeons...

Yeah, I'm sure Sch will be usable in Savage content.

Still not an excuse for them though to neuter the class for all other content.

I've never felt helpless as a SCH. The closest was that run of Bardam when the tank was having fun with me and I was still getting use to the changes. Adlo+excognition+sacred soil is enough for any pull. People talk about how bad excognition is, but it's a great reactive skill. The only time I feel over my head is when both the DPS play in the orange pools. But even then indomitable and succor and they're all good.

I'm afraid that even if the playerbase as a whole were to somehow unify to counter this particular way of misinterpreting statistics to draw an unrealistically pleasant conclusion, SE can always find another.

Ok im gonna say something nobody likes.
Ive being also playing Scholar since day 1.
Now in SB at the start I also was like wtf is going on.

MP Problems - MP was drying out very quickly (I didnt had lucid dream cause I never had an issue with MP before), thats when I learned the power of lucid dream, its a bad thing that this is a must and it takes off my space for a E4E that also has longer cooldown that before, but well with this MP is not longer an issue.

Fey Union - Omg im loving this skill! Ofc it has some issues maybe it can be a l fixed a little. But man when u know when and how to use it I even think its OP. Each heal is stronger than a physicks, so its a constant powerfull heal, Im using this a lot in Lakshmi and Susano extreme when I know we are in a part when the tank won move, so I place my eos next to the tank, Fey Union, and dont stop DPSing for abour 40-60 seconds. Its a very good skill to complement with dpsing, the tank wont go down its so powerfull. But again you must know when its the time.


Excognitation sucks, nothing to say here.

Less dots, yeah we lost some but wlel nothing to say, also we lost Virus thats a big problem for me but well thats how things are.

So to finish, yeah maybe in dungeon first dungeons tanks are squishy, but remember we and them arent overgeared for them as we where before. And for expert dungeons im not having a problem at all, dungeons never had being a thing.
And for the primals ex i think its working perfectly, im actually having fun with fey union system.
It doesnt mean they could fix some things, but for me the job is working and for the looks of it ill keep raiding with SCH (I have raided as all healers before).

Not everything is that bad guys :)t

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Originally Posted by Clouse_Cleyra

Not everything is that bad guys :)t

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I like you. I think with Excognition, you have to treat it like Zarya's bubble and be reactive with it. It's a lot more forgiving, but it comes in handy. And you're the only other person I've met that loves Fey Union. If she would just reposition herself if the target moves out of range it would be the best.

What I don't see a lot in those healer threads is the impact on solo content. I mean, you play most of the game solo after. That's why I don't get how SE could possibly think that nerfing healers' damage even more than it is would be a good idea. Killing just a single mob (as a white mage) is a pain, it takes ages. So yeah, I see a lot of people discussing the impact of this in dungeons and raids like it's not a big deal since healers aren't dps anyway but I'd love to see SE stop making healers so weak. Things like taking away the dot of AST's Gravity or the damage of WHM's Fluid Aura make no sense, except if the message is specifically "Hey, go frak yourself, healer.".

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Originally Posted by Heliantheae

I like you. I think with Excognition, you have to treat it like Zarya's bubble and be reactive with it. It's a lot more forgiving, but it comes in handy. And you're the only other person I've met that loves Fey Union. If she would just reposition herself if the target moves out of range it would be the best.

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Because it costs an Aetherflow stack and is only 50p more than Lustrate, Excog is generally not worth risking because of it's delayed trigger on a limited duration. Only time I generally use it is if the target is already below 50% for the slightly stronger heal.

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Originally Posted by Kalayel

Things like taking away the dot of AST's Gravity or the damage of WHM's Fluid Aura make no sense, except if the message is specifically "Hey, go frak yourself, healer.".

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Um. While I agree with you generally, Gravity never had a DoT.

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Originally Posted by Riyshn

Because it costs an Aetherflow stack and is only 50p more than Lustrate[...]

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Similiar case with Sacred Soil. Why waste an Aetherflow stack on it for just 10% reduction when Indomitability (+ Succor maybe) is much stronger and you have to cast it anyway? SCH shields almost aren't worth it anymore. We're slowly moving away from being a proactive healer to an reactive one - with inferior tools.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...anges/djfu1s3/

The Japanese are criticizing for all the same reasons. So hopefully the devs take notice.

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Originally Posted by AmelieR

Similiar case with Sacred Soil. Why waste an Aetherflow stack on it for just 10% reduction when Indomitability (+ Succor maybe) is much stronger and you have to cast it anyway? SCH shields almost aren't worth it anymore. We're slowly moving away from being a proactive healer to an reactive one - with inferior tools.

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AST really is screwing with the identity and strengths of the two other healers.
Shields better than SCH, heals just as good as WHM. It's becoming more of a monster than SCH ever was.

Excogitation is probably too little reward for too high a cost. While it offers 50 more potency than lustrate, it has a very restrictive 60 seconds cooldown, the buff is a stress-generator as I often find myself checking to see if it's gone off, as an ability it isn't effected by Defiance and healing buffs like Largesse, and reactive lustrate is frankly just easier and more forgiving to use for the same cost but with no cooldown.

While I like Fey Union in dungeon runs, especially during heavy trash pulls, it suffers from a couple of Quality of Life issues I'm not fond of in the primal EX encounters.
1. It's a player ability similar to Rouse and not a fairy ability, meaning you can't use it while in the middle of casting another spell as you would Whispering Dawn or Fey Covenant.
2. It has an unspecificed maximum range restriction based on the player, meaning you must be within range of the target to activate regardless of your fairy's positioning. This means if you run too far away for a mechanic, for example with a Lotus during Lakshimi EX, then you won't be able to activate Fey Union from afar if you moved out of range of Physick regardless of fairy positioning, be it next to the tank or right next to you.
3. If the target moves out of range during the tether, the tether breaks but the fairy continues to sit there expending charges for no benefit.
4. As an ability it is unaffected by Rouse or Fey Illumination.

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Originally Posted by Emitans

There's more to the game than Savage raids. If SCH isn't fun in dungeons or trials that's a problem because most people spend their time there.

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I solo healed Lakshmi Extreme with Scholar. It was an absolute blast.

Are dungeons ever fun on healer? In my experience: Not really. (Personal preference)

Scholar was fun in dungeons because Lily would heal while you made the run faster with DPS.
I said whether you find Scholar more or less boring is personal preference, but saying the job is unplayable or shouldn't be played is too dramatic.

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I'd also like to point out to everyone who says they feel helpless in dungeons, there is a massive amount of terrible tanking going on right now. This happened at the beginning of Heavensward, too. Too many tanks are trying to be "HW Tanks" and are stuck in their own "class identity" and can't adapt to their new skills and the new content. That along with being under-geared as they try to level (which could be your problem, too) creates a lot of scenarios where they get hit like trucks and it's hard to keep up with heals and they blame you, naturally.

I've run every dungeon on Scholar in the game and I never feel helpless. Do I feel bored that I can't DPS as much as before? Yes. Do I feel like I can't keep the tank alive? Only if they don't use cool downs and run the entire dungeon pulling everything they can in their DPS stance. That's on them.

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Originally Posted by Shai

I solo healed Lakshmi Extreme with Scholar.

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On what char? Cause your character data next to your name right there says SCH lvl60, and typically that data is only slightly time delayed so.......unless you leveled 60-70 and cleared all the content last night.......

Im just saying.

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Originally Posted by Tillen

On what char? Cause your character data next to your name right there says SCH lvl60, and typically that data is only slightly time delayed so.......unless you leveled 60-70 and cleared all the content last night.......

Im just saying.

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What difference does it make? Shai is retired as of 3.4 but I'm not changing my entire forum profile over it.

I have a 311 SCH and a 305 PLD right now. (298 SMN but I don't play SMN) No materia melds cause I don't feel like wasting money on gear I will throw away next Tuesday for content I can clear solo healing without materia already. It would probably help my DPS, but so far my DPS has been a giant disappointment.

Lakhsmi and Susano Ex aren't difficult fights...

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Originally Posted by Tillen

On what char? Cause your character data next to your name right there says SCH lvl60, and typically that data is only slightly time delayed so.......unless you leveled 60-70 and cleared all the content last night.......

Im just saying.

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Er, mine still says I'm on Marlboro, and that hasn't been true in over a year. I've actually transferred twice since then.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

Lakhsmi and Susano Ex aren't difficult fights...

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Still ... I haven't thought of a viable way to solo heal Susano-o on Scholar yet.
There just isn't enough Indom to go around through all the raid wide damage.

Mind you, I'm not saying it can't be done. I just haven't imagined a way to do it myself yet.
I would be impressed if someone could do this with our current gear.

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Originally Posted by Shai

Still ... I haven't thought of a viable way to solo heal Susano-o on Scholar yet.
There just isn't enough Indom to go around through all the raid wide damage.

Mind you, I'm not saying it can't be done. I just haven't imagined a way to do it myself yet.
I would be impressed if someone could do this with our current gear.

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Those 2 fights are designed that if nobody fucks up there's little to nothing to heal except those AoE that the boss sometimes cast. Healers are there to cover the mistakes in this fights, there aren't many "healing checks".

when people say sch is fine i would like to point out that now it dps like the other two healers but doesnt have other mechanics to deal with whm has ogcds and needs to pay more attention to healing due to no fairy ast has cards to deal with before sch had a slightly more complicated dps rotation to keep it involved
only reason im still playing sch is i havent hit 70 on whm or ast yet

I think many people who were main WHM / SCH until now have gone through SB MSQ in those jobs simply because that was our main, our retainers are leveled that way, so we had little real choice but go that way.

But myself for example, now that I have hit WHM 70? As soon as I am done leveling my DoH/DoL (because that is my true main XD) ... I will be leveling AST to 70 and say bye-bye to WHM til the lily / gutting mess is fixed. And in the meantime run roulette on WHM simply to get the tomes to gear up and be ready for AST 70 then.

So it is not surprising that you see a lot of WHM / SCH still right now in MSQ/Expert... because many simply haven't leveled their (tentative) new mains yet.

And some might simply stick with WHM / SCH for a while not because they LIKE it but because they are gritting their teeth and waiting for 4.1 to hopefully fix the mess we were delivered.

Current play numbers of jobs are not indicative of actual enjoyment of jobs and if people will stick with them...

The worry is a warranted one but the people have spoken. All three of the global regions, JP, NA, EU, have agreed that White Mage and Scholar should see some love as, even though they can get through current end-game, they are not exactly in a good spot.

Come the actual raid we will see what is what, and SE will have no choice to make changes regardless.

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Originally Posted by Shai

I'd also like to point out to everyone who says they feel helpless in dungeons, there is a massive amount of terrible tanking going on right now. This happened at the beginning of Heavensward, too. Too many tanks are trying to be "HW Tanks" and are stuck in their own "class identity" and can't adapt to their new skills and the new content. That along with being under-geared as they try to level (which could be your problem, too) creates a lot of scenarios where they get hit like trucks and it's hard to keep up with heals and they blame you, naturally.

I've run every dungeon on Scholar in the game and I never feel helpless. Do I feel bored that I can't DPS as much as before? Yes. Do I feel like I can't keep the tank alive? Only if they don't use cool downs and run the entire dungeon pulling everything they can in their DPS stance. That's on them.

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Talked with a friend who mains healer and it turns out my item level was low for that dungeon. Which makes sense I suppose since I leveled RDM to 70 before SCH.

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Originally Posted by AmelieR

Similiar case with Sacred Soil. Why waste an Aetherflow stack on it for just 10% reduction when Indomitability (+ Succor maybe) is much stronger and you have to cast it anyway? SCH shields almost aren't worth it anymore. We're slowly moving away from being a proactive healer to an reactive one - with inferior tools.

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When you have low level gear and you take high aoe damage, mitigation is always stronger than raw heal because it prevents you from dying.
But, that only works on savage content and maybe some extreme primals at their release.
Otherwise yes, for dungeons and stuff, it's better to spend that AF stack on Indom.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

AST really is screwing with the identity and strengths of the two other healers.
Shields better than SCH, heals just as good as WHM. It's becoming more of a monster than SCH ever was.

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It's doomed to either overshadow the other healers or be too darn weak. Until they redesign it, Ast is going to be a nightmare that'll always be in an impossible spot.

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Originally Posted by Verdan

It's doomed to either overshadow the other healers or be too darn weak. Until they redesign it, Ast is going to be a nightmare that'll always be in an impossible spot.

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RDM proves that they can make interesting and unique jobs. I'll never understand why they decided to make Astro a mix of the two existing healers.

This would involve them having people within the team that both understood the healers to progression standard and had a vested interest in making them as good as they can be.

IMO the class team don't have as good as grasp of the game as one would expect. It seems to be a bunch of guys who barely play the game throwing ideas at a wall and seeing what sticks. Sometimes they get it very right (RDM is a great example of this) but over the last few years they've generally gotten it rather wrong more often than not. So many of the blunders they've made were obvious to anyone who actively played those jobs at a progression standard. The ongoing saga with tank stats is a great example of this, as is the way the SMN nerfs completely axed SCH's gameplay in 4 man content. I could go on and on with abilities and issues over the last 2 years where it just takes one glance at a tooltip to know that it's not going to work.

Yoshida needs to suck it up and consider hiring a couple of choice people out of the JP raiding scene to inject a bit of common sense and fresh blood into the team imo. It worked wonders for Blizzard during WoW's early days.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

RDM proves that they can make interesting and unique jobs. I'll never understand why they decided to make Astro a mix of the two existing healers.

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It's not like they can't make unique healers. Look at PvP AST with their Abridge mechanic and permanent Synastry.