Suggestions for holding hate (WAR)

I started playing WAR towards the end of Heavensward and may have picked up some bad habits. For dungeon trash pulls I would use "Flash" a few times and never really lost hate with packs. Now that I don't have that option, I use "Overpower" and constantly run out of TP, and still loose hate on mobs I am not actively damaging. I use "Untimatium" when I can, but the cooldown is longer than pack to pack. So far, the hate lose hasn't caused a death, but it is annoying/embarrassing.

I am not a very experienced tank and any tips/Guide links would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry for the noobness and thanks for the time.

-Casmi

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Originally Posted by Casmi

I started playing WAR towards the end of Heavensward and may have picked up some bad habits. For dungeon trash pulls I would use "Flash" a few times and never really lost hate with packs. Now that I don't have that option, I use "Overpower" and constantly run out of TP, and still loose hate on mobs I am not actively damaging. I use "Untimatium" when I can, but the cooldown is longer than pack to pack. So far, the hate lose hasn't caused a death, but it is annoying/embarrassing.

I am not a very experienced tank and any tips/Guide links would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry for the noobness and thanks for the time.

-Casmi

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Ill level warrior last for that very reason I already know losing flash is gona make the job not that fun

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Originally Posted by Casmi

Sorry for the noobness and thanks for the time.

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You're way ahead of the game since you asked! Don't take this as solid information b/c I'm in the same boat as you in terms of being new. (I've only been in dungeons up to 70, heck I don't even know how to tank swap naturally! I am new. Little leaf on my head, but if I can hold hate so can you!)

So far now that I'm 70 I'm don't have many hate issues. I do happen to miss a mob or two if I don't pull correctly with over power, but I get them back in range and we're good. I noticed I was doing a good amount of over powers but now that I've replaced them with a few steel cyclones I'm good. I then start rotating around my combos as needed, if I feel one is neglected I'll BB him otherwise I keep my dmg boost up and get my 20 beast points. I don't really have many issues not having my gauge filled (I even use the new forbidden Onslaught and Upheaval moves!)

I guess it's easiest to say, start off with Berserk or Unchained if you can, use Infuriate when you can. Overpower and use Steel Cyclone to get a handle on hate, then start with your rotations, once you get the 20% buff either overpower or another steel, then you're free to gather up for next pull or use it for an absorb move.

Adjust this due to how fast things are dying.

Since you can't use Unchained outside of battle I usually use it after my first OP. Weave your cool-downs and switch around between Steel Cyclones (tp free) and Overpowers. Also, now this is just me..not saying this is for anyone else in this world, I ask for TP if needed or sometimes I just get it! This is a co-op game, we're a team, if they can they shouldn't have an issue tossing you a Goad.

Sometimes I start off with throwing an axe, sometimes Onslaught, then take the mobs through and turn them around. So far shoulder rushing them turns them around just fine, some may disagree.

I don't even miss flash. Though maybe a veteran can come in and give you some major details because I'm not that guy.

But so far on my end? Haven't had any real TP issues / Hate issues / Beast Gauge issues, and my healers are still able to burn my eyes with Holy Spam.

And watch out for those healers burst heals, they're wonderful. (Asylum / Excogitation / Earthly Star) less they got to heal me the more they get to blow stuff up every now and then!

I'll usually overpower as I run through a group and stagger for a second one if I miss one of the mobs. When I get everything gathered, and on my hate table, I'll Equilibrium and hit the whole group with an additional 2 overpowers. Then I'll usually get Storm's Eye up, Infuriate, Berserk, Steel Cyclone, perform a Storm's Path and do another Steel Cyclone. Until the DPS thin the herd a little bit, I focus most of my time on keeping Storm's Eye up then acquiring and utilizing Steel Cyclones to insure that I have hate on everything. This is lower DPS than the old Decimate spam but I've yet to lose hate (save for a party that had an RDM focused solely on Single Target attacks in a mob of 6 while also competing with a BLM utilizing their AoE rotation) which is the tanks primary role.

One thing of note is that using Ultimatum when it's up isn't going to help you very much. Ultimatum is just a widespread Provoke which only gives you the same as the highest enmity +1 additional enmity point. If you're already the highest enmity then Ultimatum is effectively only adding +1 to your enmity and is mostly worthless. Honestly, I don't even cross class Ultimatum as its use is so niche that I've yet to encounter a situation where it would have been useful.

I never really relied on Flash before so it's really not a big deal. Only when things spawn in a circular patern was Flash really useful (or when we used to be pacified).

Just run to a group with tomahawk to get the mobs coming to you, position yourself to hit all of them with 2 overpower, then start doing your S.Eye > S.Path combo while doing overpower in between.
Make sure you switch target when doing maim to apply the slashing debuff to multiple mobs and do Steel Cyclone every time you have enough rage.
Also, since berserk is now on 60s CD, you can use it on every pool with infuriate.

Really WAR doesn't have any issue with aggro as long as you stay in Defiance.

Leigaon and Dement have good points. I'm opening my trash pulls with Berserk + Overpower twice and Infuriate for Steel Cyclone. Abuse Berserk, it has low cooldown and you can have it available every pull

After opening, use Storm's Eye combo for extra damage and distribute your aggro combo through enemies: Heavy Swing and Skull Sunder one target, Butcher's Block another target. This way, you can build a bit of aggro on each of them to stop the DPS from generating enough to get attention. Repeat until monsters are dead

For large packs of mobs, first thing is first, don't worry about optimal DPS. Don't take the time to try and get your storm buff on. It'll make it a big pain in the ass. I never used flash even since ARR as it was always kinda garbage of a GCD.

Try to stay a few steps ahead of your party, see if you can get all viewable enemies in a cone and open with an overpower and hope you catch them all, if not, click/tab on who you missed and overpower while trying to fit the rest of the mobs in your cone. Once they're all around you, infuriate and steel cyclone. I usually like to continue overpower til I'm around 500-600 TP. At this point try and get your storm buff up, do so on a mob that your DPS may be focusing. Rotate a few butcher's block combos between the mobs you see your DPS primarily focusing, in pugs they often focus separate targets as they want maximum benefits from their DoTs/debuff timers. The emnity between your overpowers/cyclone should buy you enough time to butcher's block between these mobs.

Sometimes you're gonna lose aggro for a second or two, or take a few to get aggro. IE: Red Mages have absolutely retarded opening burst so it may take a second to pull off. Mobs may spawn midway through a pack and not be easy to gather without cyclone. Don't worry much about these, your DPS/healers can take hits for a couple of seconds, just try your best not to let that happen if possible. With trash mobs your first priority is hate over DPS, always remember that.

For single target boss fights a tomahawk+butcher's block combo in tank stance is usually enough to hold hate while you do anything else.

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Originally Posted by HELLruler

Leigaon and Dement have good points. I'm opening my trash pulls with Berserk + Overpower twice and Infuriate for Steel Cyclone. Abuse Berserk, it has low cooldown and you can have it available every pull

After opening, use Storm's Eye combo for extra damage and distribute your aggro combo through enemies: Heavy Swing and Skull Sunder one target, Butcher's Block another target. This way, you can build a bit of aggro on each of them to stop the DPS from generating enough to get attention. Repeat until monsters are dead

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Pretty much all this, especially distributing the aggro combo through enemies.

And for feisty DPS who are determined to have a reason to clown me, when I am cycling targets, I give a quick glance to the enmity meters to see if the DPS are choosing different mobs, are working one really hard even though I marked a different order, etc. If I see them climbing up the meter and going red, I stay on that mob, maybe toss a mid/late Overpower out for general purposes.

Steel Cyclone, has seen much more use in my case this time around. Which isnt a bad thing. It's TP free and aggro holding, that combined with an occasional Overpower+Beserk for an opener and maybe even a mid/late pull, and being mindful of all the adds, you will adjust to it.

Start Encounter > Infuriate + Steel Cyclone > Storm's Eye > Overpower X3 > Storm's Path > Steel Cyclone > ???

That'll keep your TP comfortable and keep threat under control assuming your gear isn't leagues behind the DPS in your group. Berserk helps too.

Wow, thank you all so much for the response. This has yielded very useful information and I believe the biggest missing piece to be Steel Cyclone. This skill has been bugged for me since SB release. Every time I put it on a hotbar, it adds Decimate instead. I have a help ticket in for this, so once that is resolved, I should be much more efficient. Again, thanks for being an amazing community!

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Originally Posted by Casmi

This skill has been bugged for me since SB release. Every time I put it on a hotbar, it adds Decimate instead.

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In Stormblood Steel Cyclone will automatically switch to Decimate when you switch from Defiance to Deliverance. Same with IB and Fell Cleave & Inner Release and Unchained.

Ewww, wish I could delete that post...Thanks for the help.

You just have to angle things more and get used to using Overpower.

Use your Steel Cyclone more and other CDs as well

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

I never really relied on Flash before so it's really not a big deal. Only when things spawn in a circular patern was Flash really useful (or when we used to be pacified).

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WAR was the only tank who had no use for their MP pool if they weren't flashing, and you're saying that it wasn't that useful? Really? Best way to aoe pull in this game for the past 4 years has been to tomahawk/shield lob/unmend and flash/unleash as you run through the pack. Add a off-gcd buff to snap hate on the stragglers between the two actions for even more efficacy. Trying to do that with overpower makes you miss enemies all the time thanks to server latency. And the cone is rarely wide enough to grab everything at once anyway.

Overpower has always been clunky for picking things up, but it was and is still great once you already have threat. Cyclone really needs to be adjusted to compensate so that it's available for every pull if this is truly the way WAR is going to stay.

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Originally Posted by Areic

I never used flash even since ARR as it was always kinda garbage of a GCD.

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Don't worry much about these, your DPS/healers can take hits for a couple of seconds, just try your best not to let that happen if possible.

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I love how the justification for people who never used flash is basically "Stay in defiance all the time" or "You'll lose hate once in awhile, but your party members can OT until you build threat again..." No offense, but these are not good comments...

WAR got hit by a piledriver of nerfs all at once, and staying in tank stance 100% of the time invalidates a good quarter of its abilities. If SE didn't want players to be using them, they would've probably cut them with the other "useless" skills that were already removed.

Tanks should have no problem generating threat or holding it. There's some decent suggestions here for weaving in more SC than we used to, but it's basically like trying to put a band-aid on an amputated limb.

I've never used Flash and always relied on Overpower to pick up monsters. I use it twice, maybe three times, and then start putting Storm's Eye up. If I'm tanking more than 3 monsters, I'll use Steel Cyclone as soon as it's up. Else it's just Inner Beast, really. Before, you'd be able to go into Deliverance for some Fell Cleaves, but that has become painful as of late.

One thing I never understood is Warriors who say they have TP issues. I once had someone tell me Warriors were the worst tanks because they ran out of MP too fast and then couldn't use Flash anymore. Like... what? Really makes me wonder...

Unless you're tanking in Deliverance, you shouldn't be having problems if you open up with two or three Overpowers. Especially now that Berserk is on a low cooldown, you can open up with Berserked Overpowers. And if you time yourself properly, you'll even have a little bit left of Storm's Eye on the next encounter.

Losing flash required a big adjustment for most warrior mains. But, it just takes practice and utilizing more than overpower to make up for the loss. Picking up mobs during a fight can be more challenging, but using an onslaught -> overpower combo tends to establish threat pretty well. One thing I've noticed though is I feel like I have to hold enough gauge for steel cyclone which is fine, but SC costs a lot. I'd love to see SC & decimate's cost drop to 30.

If you're still having trouble holding threat, use your markers! Ask your dps to focus that mob first since it'll making establishing threat easier for you.

I have used the tips in this thread with great success. I have done well in the 61 and 63 dungeons so far with holding hate and maintaining TP.

Thanks again for all the positive feedback!