I was wondering, why does people count dps instead of total potency?

Hello everyone :)

I've seen video with people getting high DPS score while having their best skill criting 90% of the time in the video and then post it on youtube. And I feel there's something wrong about it.

Honestly, I think saying each class can bring X dps based on the rng and being like "look at what this class can bring" looks kinda weird to me. Even in team, they will say they reached X or Y, but maybe their allies just used their team buff at the right moment, or the boss had a weak spot on one of his phase and they better used their burst at that moment (which is a good thing of course).

Why can't people just talk about total potency made, with their "Attack" stat and their crit stat beside? So we will be more able to compare classes. Is there any program that is able to just calculate the total potency you inflicted? and without counting crits?

I just mean a crit is not something skilled itself. So I won't think someone is better than another based on the fact he did a crit and not the other. We should get a way to talk about total potency inflicted to compare classes. So we won't be like "oh this one reached 4k dps, and the other one 3.6k (while the 1rst one maybe crit 35% of the time while the second crit 15% of the time, but both have as much crit stat, and maybe one crited on the best move and the other one on the worse).

I do believe it would be more fair to talk about total potency "inflicted". So we can really be like "oh wow you did all that during the fight, you really optimized your character dmg", which would be something :
- removing the crit rng
- the random dmg on a same skill in the same conditions
- the fact we have a different equipement
- the random way some allies use their ally buffs
So we at least know if we are using the character right even before having the best equipment.

(of course, total dps is important, but I believe it would be nice to also know the other things I've stated to talk about balance).

This is a RPG. In RPGs luck is a factor too.

Many theory crafters crunch numbers based off of PPS, and maximizing that number within buff windows, at the end of the day everyone likes hearing about 4.2k parses instead of pps parses, also there is a little check box in a well known program that we all use to parse potency instead of damage.

Inuk9, I didn't say the opposite. But if you read this part of the forum, people talk about balance of classes by comparing those "rng" numbers. It just feels wrong to just take those random numbers and talk about balance. Which is why talking about "Total DPS / Toal PPS (potency per second) / Attack stats / Crit stats / number of crits" would feel more interesting. And RNG doesn't really show if you're playing well or not, which is frustrating if you just don't know if people are better than you or not.

Adriosh : thanks a lot, I'm relieved to know some program are made for this :) (and even more theory crafters use those numbers ^^) (are we not allowed to mention this program? I mean SE said we can use parsers, they just ban those who use them to trash talk people they play with).

Average dps is more important than potency. Crits can cause anomalous parses but in an average they won't. A random event ceases to be random over and infinite number of trials. Thus if someone has a 35% crit rate, you can guarantee on average 35 crits out of every 100 attacks. You can factor that into your damage. What kills a target is damage, not potency. Take for example if two players were playing the same class with the same ilvl but had focused their stats differently you could possibly see a sizeable gap in dps. If this was true of everyone across an entire raid you could be missing over 1000dps or more. "But we're doing the same potency per second" wouldn't cut it on an enrage.

Another example to chew on, buffs don't always align perfectly, perhaps it's worth delaying a skill for buff cooldowns. If you don't delay the skill you may get higher potency per second, but lower dps.

To sum it up crits arn't random with proper testing, dps is what kills targets, potency per second can be misleading, and the best measure of a properly built and played character is the one with the maximum average dps.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

Inuk9, I didn't say the opposite. But if you read this part of the forum, people talk about balance of classes by comparing those "rng" numbers. It just feels wrong to just take those random numbers and talk about balance.

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the biggest mistake you're making is believing crits are random and thus cannot be counted on. Over more than one parse crits are no more random than main stat, weapon damage, det or anything else.

Theorycrafting is almost always done in PPS. That being said, If a level 70 normally geared paladin and a level 70 normally geared SAM both do 100 potency, do they do the same DPS? (note: if I have a 10% damage buff we could say 110 potency, so we arent going to consider that).

A tank has substancially lower main stat after the change and historically bards have had lower weapon damage, iirc paladins sword + shield is less stats than WAR's 2 handed axe.

While PPS is easier to work with, the end goal, and what we ultimately care about, is DPS. "Random" or "Luck" isnt a factor, if you have enough parses to average out the outliers.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

the biggest mistake you're making is believing crits are random and thus cannot be counted on. Over more than one parse crits are no more random than main stat, weapon damage, det or anything else.

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This.

Potency per second is usefull when using in theorycrafting, so we can learn best rotations. But DPS is the final result of combined rotation + stats(including crits). It's the ultimate result that tells you if you build your character correctly and learned proper rotations.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

the biggest mistake you're making is believing crits are random and thus cannot be counted on. Over more than one parse crits are no more random than main stat, weapon damage, det or anything else.

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I made no mistake as I said to count everything, not only DPS or only potency, you didn't read it all :/

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Originally Posted by xyaie

If a level 70 normally geared paladin and a level 70 normally geared SAM both do 100 potency, do they do the same DPS? (note: if I have a 10% damage buff we could say 110 potency, so we arent going to consider that).

A tank has substancially lower main stat after the change and historically bards have had lower weapon damage, iirc paladins sword + shield is less stats than WAR's 2 handed axe.

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But I said to show Potency, with "Attack" stat, and crit stat beside (on my very 1rst post of this topic). Of course Potency can't be counted alone for getting from where the damages come from, but it's all about 2 ideas : knowing how to play better and what to balance. No one get the idea I want to give. Someone with ilvl 314 can suck and deal more than one with ilvl 260 just because of the equipments. Getting potency means that you actually can show that your rotation is technically better. And having the potency counting crit will also show that crits have been more or less efficient according to what skill did crit or not. And of course, you still get the overall dps to give like a final number to all the calculation which will talk better to people. So yea it's not all about comparing class between them but also knowing what potencialy, your class can reach as total potency (while still having the other stats beside).

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Originally Posted by xyaie

While PPS is easier to work with, the end goal, and what we ultimately care about, is DPS. "Random" or "Luck" isnt a factor, if you have enough parses to average out the outliers.

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You misunderstood, I said people make a video or post a score on reddit when they actually look like very lucky with their crit rate, post it and are like "X class rotation ; ilvlY ; Zdps" and people will say, based on one video, that X class can bring X dps. But for exemple, I believe succeeding 90% of your Fell cleave, exactly the skill having the most potency of all your skills is having luck and misleading on a score people will think they should get on average. It's just wrong and people will take one video (so only one score/one data) someone made (and of course the best he made, so it's nothing about average).

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

This.

Potency per second is usefull when using in theorycrafting, so we can learn best rotations. But DPS is the final result of combined rotation + stats(including crits). It's the ultimate result that tells you if you build your character correctly and learned proper rotations.

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Not "this" x) It's frustrating as you are several to misread me. I said they should make a total potency score --> with and without crit.
So the program could be able to know that with X stat of crit, your skill making a base 200potency will become like 357 potency, for exemple. So it would be still taken in count. And it would still show the total of DPS which is important as well, I already said it :/

Easy answer: not everyone's gcd timer is the same. NIN has a speed boost, MNK has a different speed boost that ramps up, different gearsets have different skillspeed/spellspeed, also latency can delay your next skill when ogcd skills are used.

Why make the metric more vague (by saying potency) when all that does is make it more inaccurate? Damage per second is the exact metric needed and is as precise as such a metric can be.

I would say the most important issue here, is that DPS directly corresponds to how easily you can complete content, whereas PPS does not. PPS is fine when comparing individual abilities, but when you take the different classes entire kits into consideration, it's important to consider real numbers vs real numbers(damage vs hp).

No offense, but my title is so great you all seem to skip the posts and only answer to my title x)

On a SSS dummy, for exemple, timer can be easily taken in count.

I agree about the skill speed etc counting and changing a lot. But I also do remember I talked about potency per second too (look for "potency per second" in the previous page with ctrl+F)

And I talked about the equipment, I talked about why I even talked about the topic all along it :
--> People talk about balance on one single data brought by someone in monotarget dps under perfect conditions (not moving target, no invincibility/untargetable phases, no attack to dodge).
--> People post their score as they may have been just more lucky about crits than another one (number of crits + on what skill) making them looking better than tif they made the exact same gameplay but with less crits or on worse skills.
--> People could know if their rotation is technically better, which won't change because they have better gears or not.

Just once again to be sure, I do think DPS in important, you all seems to think I'm saying it's not.

You're trying to overcomplicate things for no reason. DPS is the damage you did, per second. It's literally all you need to know about your contribution to the fight. PPS is unreliable as it doesn't take into account the crits, the party buffs, the direct hits or anything else that has real fight applications.

There is no need for any other calculation as we already have one that works as intended, trying to change it or suggest another on top of that is a classic case of fixing something that isn't broken in the first place.

You didn't read it too, as I repeat myself in several posts, and especially in my last one where I talk about the fact people ignore what I said and why I said this.
I do agree understanding potency looks more complicated, but if you read me, I said there would be a lot of differents data mentionned aside total potency (so yea, if we have +20% dmg, a skill with 200 will be counted as 240 potency, but also with a number reminding you you did 200 potency).

I do believe the way people about balance looks too casual overall. Even if some people completely make sense without having too deep data. Maybe it's too complicated for people overall, but it's not too complicated for people who really want to talk about balancing things.

Once more, I don't wanna get rid of DPS, as it's also an important data too.

If you look at total potency over 3 mins vs taking total potency and dividing it by 180 seconds, they are the same relative thing? If you said SAM did 792,000 potency while NIN did 738,000 potency in 3 mins it would just be cumbersome to look at vs 4400 vs 4100 PPS. Its just a more concise way to report it?

As I said, it is not only useful for this, but also to know if you did well as your own class.

If you do 738000 potency in 3 min with your samurai with 4100dps because you're ilvl 300, and another one does that same potency of 738000 with his samurai with 4400dps because he is ilvl314, it will mean you still played well, just need better gears, so you don't need to wait to have an optimal equipment to train your rotation for exemple.

I am surprised to see how much I've tried to use a maximum of information in very few text to be understood, and I find myself just repeating things again and again. Maybe I was not clear enough, and I'm sorry for this, if there are that many people who didn't understand me, then I guess it's my fault in the end. But I'm still wondering if people actually read what I wrote.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

If you do 738000 potency in 3 min with your samurai with 4100dps because you're ilvl 300, and another one does that same potency of 738000 with his samurai with 4400dps because he is ilvl314

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I just dont understand i guess. How can you do 738,000 potency in 3 mins and with 4400 dps when 738,000/180sec = 4100 PPS? It is impossible to do the "Same potency" in the "same amount of time' and have diff PPS numbers. PPS = Total Potency done/Total amount of Time. If two people do the same potency in the same amount of time, it is mathmatically impossible for them to have different PPS/DPS

Ah maybe we don't speak about the same total potency. I mean the base potency, like "Maim" of the War will always make 200 potency, even with a char lvl 30 which obviously never will inflict as much dmg as a ilvl 314 war which still only did 200 potency. Which explains the difference. But maybe did you mean the total potency of Maim with a crit wouldn't count as only 200 but like (for exemple) 350 potency thx to the crit?
And of course I believe both to be taken in count when talking about balance.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

I mean the base potency, like "Maim" of the War will always make 200 potency, even with a char lvl 30 which obviously never will inflict as much dmg as a ilvl 314 war which still only did 200 potency. Which explains the difference.

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But you cant just look at potency of abilities, A BLM could have a 350 potency ability with a 3.5 sec cast while a monk has a 200 potency ability with a 2.0 sec gcd. They are the same relative damage over time even though they are diff potency values. You also have to take in consideration of some classes have auto attacks that dont have " set potencies" and some do not. Some classes have RNG proc based mechanics like BRD and MCH with no real set rotation except proper adaptation to the exact moment in time. You have to look at multiple iteration over time to get a basis. Looking at just potency only tells a small part of the story.

Fannah, I think I understand your question on some level. Here are a few things to consider:

• Different jobs do not bring the same damage per potency. They actually have slightly different damage formulas and available stats from gear and traits.
• Between certain traits and the standard buffs that should be taken as a given, players of jobs conceive of the same potency in different ways. Monk has always had fairly low potencies even back when it outclassed dragoon in every way, because you could take Greased Lightning, Dragon Kick, and Twin Snakes as a given most of the time and
• There is damage that is problematic to evaluate in terms of potency. Auto-attacks are basically outside the potency system. Skills that buff critical hit rate can be considered outside the potency system.
• Within comparable encounters, people are usually working with roughly the same range of gear. Even if some people are unfairly behind on gear in a way that makes it incredibly difficult to clear an encounter, it is fair to expect people who are trying to get to a competitive level would at the very least have the free-farmable tomestone gear. And everyone at the start of a hardcore raid cycle is technically behind on gear relative to the difficulty.

I feel ya when it comes to people only rarely giving an appropriate context for demonstrations of their skills. I really do, used to moan about it all the time in ARR especially. Item level isn't good enough for me; I gotta know all your stats and then maybe we have a shot at theorycrafting it out to see if you just had absurd luck instead of knowing something the rest of us don't.

However, in the end, if you want to boast good performance, it's a much more attractive sell to say "we have the speed record on this fight" than to say "we have the speed record for minimum item level sync for this fight" even though the latter would be the greater and fairer challenge by many malms. You're not competing with hardly anyone in that category.

So it's a kind of social thing, too, to be doing the latest challenges in the best gear, "the real test" even though it logically isn't. Like, there are a few people who climb mountains (really, really tough climbs) without much more safety gear than good shoes and chalk. It's incredibly dangerous: at those heights one cannot survive a single small mistake, and I'm sorry to say these mistakes have happened. These same people could logically prove their capability with significantly less risk to themselves by using a rope and just not falling (which is how they practice and plan, mind you); even with the rope it's still a huge challenge with plenty of risk and prestige. But it's not at all what they're looking to prove or enjoy doing.

Boss health isn't measured in potency

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Originally Posted by Fannah

--> People talk about balance on one single data brought by someone in monotarget dps under perfect conditions (not moving target, no invincibility/untargetable phases, no attack to dodge).

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Then these same people would simply look at the job that has the highest PPS and decide that one is OP without considering the other factors. The people who are quick to jump to conclusions based on a single piece of data will just use another single piece of data to jump to conclusions.

At the very least DPS is a practical stat while PPS is a theoretical one. I'd rather have people jump to conclusions based on something that directly tells how good of a job we're doing and not based on a theoretical number.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

Inuk9, I didn't say the opposite. But if you read this part of the forum, people talk about balance of classes by comparing those "rng" numbers. It just feels wrong to just take those random numbers and talk about balance.

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the ones who you are talking of are the ones who are not that deep into theorycrafting - sadly most of the complainers are like this. if we take smn f.e a lot of people complained about aoe-potecy nerf, ruin 3 potecy nerf, garudas con adjustment/change - "uh uh uh smn will fall to the ground" "bottom line" "totally broke" - than the first reddit parse was posted... smn on 2nd place after Sam on top. guess half of the community were shocked. yeah your right you can't go for raw-potecy numbers... but its way easier to compare those than go deeper into crafting yourself. also most cls shine in teamwork & synergy with others so its even harder to tell which cls is how strong on their own without party buffs...

I like that finally someone question the overall-opinion - its more complicated than it looks. +1 for your topic.