New PLD should learn how to use their mp effectly...!!!

...as the new DLC come out and the change of PLD i see so many PLD in DF compare with other 2 tank, and many time my team have 2 PLD, but most of time i notice that other PLD mp bar don't move an inche during the battle, they don't use clemency when their hp is low, don't even use them for holy spirit in tank stance to gain oath, a result is they rarely use sheldon as well, it's such a waste since holy spirit not only generated 20 oath for each cast also deal very good damage (about 20-30k in tank stance)

Maybe because they used a jump potion. Yes I noticed this when I done susano extreme, where the other tank did not even know what the tank buster is, and how to mitigate it with a cool down. taking a full hit is insta death. It will phase it's self out after a few months, when people had there fill.

For what they did to WAR and DRK it seems that it isnt the tanks job at all to selkf heal, none. They took a majoritu of sel healing away from both, so clemency is totally optional

Meaning

Healers shouldnt even consider clemency as an option you should heal the tank no matter what. PLD has that ability, but it is the healers responsibility since you know, you might not get a paladin.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

For what they did to WAR and DRK it seems that it isnt the tanks job at all to selkf heal, none. They took a majoritu of sel healing away from both, so clemency is totally optional

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i dont think so, clemency isnt option, it awesome, in HW you can only have 3 clemency before run out of MP and it can be interrupt, but in SB you can cast 5 of them before run out of MP and cant be interrupt, i use it alot in susano ex, when my other dps make some mistake and healer have to take care of them

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Originally Posted by ShariusTC

i dont think so, clemency isnt option, it awesome, in HW you can only have 3 clemency before run out of MP and it can be interrupt, but in SB you can cast 5 of them before run out of MP and cant be interrupt, i use it alot in susano ex, when my other dps make some mistake and healer have to take care of them

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im not arguing my point pld is not the only tank. and clemency is just an add on, it shouldnt be expected, nor assumed.

just like RDM shouldnt be expected to vercure or raise when healers feel like dpsing, its the healers responsibility now. Self sustainability isnt a tank trait anymore, only pld have that mega cure

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Originally Posted by ShariusTC

i dont think so, clemency isnt option, it awesome, in HW you can only have 3 clemency before run out of MP and it can be interrupt, but in SB you can cast 5 of them before run out of MP and cant be interrupt, i use it alot in susano ex, when my other dps make some mistake and healer have to take care of them

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Ya true, I actually find using that allot, sometimes to top a healer off or player who got hit by a aoe they could not get out of in time.Or just as a tank buster hits, get that extra bit of heal in, use the tools, intervention pop that on your tank buddy for that extra mitigation for the incoming tank buster before the swap.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

im not arguing my point pld is not the only tank. and clemency is just an add on, it shouldnt be expected, nor assumed.

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yeah, maybe for some clemency is an option, but PLD shouldnt left their mp unuse, they gain way too much mp from their physical combo and should use it to spam holy spirit instead

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Originally Posted by ShariusTC

yeah, maybe for some clemency is an option, but PLD shouldnt left their mp unuse, they gain way too much mp from their physical combo and should use it to spam holy spirit instead

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well a good paladin would use it when necessary, i have to agree with you there

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

For what they did to WAR and DRK it seems that it isnt the tanks job at all to selkf heal, none. They took a majoritu of sel healing away from both, so clemency is totally optional

Meaning

Healers shouldnt even consider clemency as an option you should heal the tank no matter what. PLD has that ability, but it is the healers responsibility since you know, you might not get a paladin.

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It is optionals yes; doesnt mean u dont use it or put off. Some healers foucs heal on tank ignoring the dps or other healer. Giving help or heal last always appreciate the team work, plus clemency can heal 35-50% of target hp (dps/healer).

PLD is party protector not only tanking, and thats what like about pld.

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Originally Posted by Faeon

Maybe because they used a jump potion. Yes I noticed this when I done susano extreme, where the other tank did not even know what the tank buster is, and how to mitigate it with a cool down. taking a full hit is insta death. It will phase it's self out after a few months, when people had there fill.

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So you think the most likely people to not use their mana are not the previous paladins who were used to a meta where mp was a resource of limited usefulness (clemency and flash only), but the ones who have used jump potion and never played paladin before to have predisposition to the old version of the class?

Makes total sense.

"They must have used a jump potion" seems to be being used interchangeably with "they are bloody stupid and don't know how to read" quite a lot these days.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

well a good paladin would use it when necessary, i have to agree with you there

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Whenever you've got a big aoe section, the healer will likely do a lot more damage than the tank when it comes to paladins, especially if they dont have to heal. You can have the paladin heal themselves while the WHM spams holy (200 potency downgrading to 100 potency over 5 targets or more), or you can have the paladin spam eclipse for 100potency per target while the whm heals. Obviously instants and ogcds can be used in either case, but generally speaking if resources aren't an issue (going oom, etc), the healer is better off dpsing. If you're in shield oath, your eclipse also gets reduced by 20% while clemency doesn't.

Clemency basically gives you 600 potency of enmity per target too, which is approximately the same as a flash (assuming you have missing hp to heal).

So... think of clemency as the aoe mana spender for paladin. You have to convince your healer to do the dps while you heal, but if you can you have a 1200 potency heal (1800 potency if you can heal someone else and recover your own hp as well), that gives you half of that potency in enmity, multiplied by shield oath, and allows your healer to use that gcd for aoe damage which is better than yours. The way to go about this in a pug is to be proactive - healers that are willing to dps will let you get a bit lower before they heal you generally, so just clemency before they do.

Healer DPS potential is greater than tank DPS for AoE (except Scholar. Lol, delete Scholar from the duty roulette) so you should prioritize Clemency over DPS for large pulls provided you have a healer who DPSes.

That's because casters deal higher damage for the same amount of potency to compensate for having no auto-attacks (I don't know if this is why SE did it this way, but that's how I think of it anyway). However, you only want to use Clemency over Holy Spirit if your healer is out of Assize/Tetragamaton or has already used Essential Dignity because these are essentially free healing.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Clemency basically gives you 600 potency of enmity per target too, which is approximately the same as a flash (assuming you have missing hp to heal).

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I always assume that clemency does increase on enmity just like ff11. Do you have prove about this, i could not find anything related to that?

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Originally Posted by Armoota

I always assume that clemency does increase on enmity just like ff11. Do you have prove about this, i could not find anything related to that?

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/wiki/enmity

Healing gives enmity equal to 0.5 points per point healed, but to all aggroed targets. Clemency is a 1200 potency heal, ergo gives 600 potency of enmity (1800/900 if used on someone else and also healing yourself for 50%).

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Originally Posted by Furious

Snip.

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I said "maybe", and if he leveled from 60 - 70 then he/she should know what uses the mp pool and what does not.

Going by the OP's comment I made my own, and I used an example about my experience that I had with a player that I happened to partner up with via RF, and it does not matter if you played prior in the ARR meta or HW meta. and your comment ""They must have used a jump potion" seems to be being used interchangeably with "they are bloody stupid and don't know how to read" quite a lot these days." I have not seen this type of comment made by someone yet. Weather he/she uses a Jump Pot is up to them, I don't really care. But you should atleast know how to play the basics of your Job, since Jump Positions does not jump you to 70, so what did you do between 60 - 70?

Clemency is situational, I found it better to pop it when a big aoe is coming in that will hit the entire group or on yourself as a tank buster hits, or to allow some extra healer dps in, but that has become rare I have noticed.

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Originally Posted by Armoota

I always assume that clemency does increase on enmity just like ff11. Do you have prove about this, i could not find anything related to that?

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As Furious has said it does, when a healer heals you it generates enmity, so the same would be if you done it. To my knowledge, I don't think there is anything in the game that says if I heal "then dont gen hate"

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Originally Posted by Faeon

As Furious has said it does, when a healer heals you it generates enmity, so the same would be if you done it. To my knowledge, I don't think there is anything in the game that says if I heal "then dont gen hate"

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I think he means that clemency in FFXI has some sort of either enmity multiplier or perhaps a flat enmity amount? Bit hard to tell. Anyway as far as FFXIV is concerned, clemency is the same as any other heal with no intrinsic multiplier besides the healing 0.5 multiplier.

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Originally Posted by Furious

I think he means that clemency in FFXI has some sort of either enmity multiplier or perhaps a flat enmity amount? Bit hard to tell. Anyway as far as FFXIV is concerned, clemency is the same as any other heal with no intrinsic multiplier besides the healing 0.5 multiplier.

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Cheers for that.

I too see a lot of paladins do not even use holy spirit, it is a goddamn nuke, use it whatever possible or requiescat is off cd. unless you have to move or mitigate stuff.

But I guess old habits are hard to die...the 123,124 is imprinted in paladin's mind

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

I too see a lot of paladins do not even use holy spirit, it is a goddamn nuke, use it whatever possible or requiescat is off cd. unless you have to move or mitigate stuff.

But I guess old habits are hard to die...the 123,124 is imprinted in paladin's mind

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I wish it sounded better though :(

Clemency aside (because, for some reason, that winds up being a controversial discussion), the way PLD plays completely changed in SB. Previously, outside of aoe pulls, you didn't absolutely need to use MP. Now, because of how powerful the modifier for requiescat (my new favorite word) is, holy spirit is how PLD will do a large portion of our damage and MP management to make sure that MP is there as soon as requiescat is available, is a big part of the job. Unfortunately, there's not much in game that stresses this, and frankly, one can get away with the old method of tanking. I think these people will learn in time, and the best thing any of us can do is let ignorant PLD know that way the job plays has changed.

IDK, I'm not level 70 yet on my PLD yet but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that even if we used Holy Spirit and Clemency as freely as you advised, you still wouldn't notice out MP pools going down all that much. I just ran the 63 dungeon, trying to get PLD up to the next tier dungeons and even when effectively spamming Holy Spirit and Clemency after my Aggro was established, my MP would not go down past 60%, if even that. Enemies were just dying way too quickly that it felt largely unnecessary to spam them to a point that I was going MP starved before the next mob pull and even on bosses, I still have to maintain aggro as my 1st priority and against good DPS, it's not like I could spam either move without risk of losing aggro.

Then, there are external thing you need to be aware as well.
Is someone giving out MP via a role skill?
Did the PLD pop a potion? (Weird but it's possible)
Are you just looking at the wrong times?

Regardless, I do like the changes made and while I am still leveling my PLD, I don't really expect anything to change upon hitting 70 about these skills that would make the situation any different than what I'm currently experiencing.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

IDK, I'm not level 70 yet on my PLD yet but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that even if we used Holy Spirit and Clemency as freely as you advised, you still wouldn't notice out MP pools going down all that much. I just ran the 63 dungeon, trying to get PLD up to the next tier dungeons and even when effectively spamming Holy Spirit and Clemency after my Aggro was established, my MP would not go down past 60%, if even that. Enemies were just dying way too quickly that it felt largely unnecessary to spam them to a point that I was going MP starved before the next mob pull and even on bosses, I still have to maintain aggro as my 1st priority and against good DPS, it's not like I could spam either move without risk of losing aggro.

Then, there are external thing you need to be aware as well.
Is someone giving out MP via a role skill?
Did the PLD pop a potion? (Weird but it's possible)
Are you just looking at the wrong times?

Regardless, I do like the changes made and while I am still leveling my PLD, I don't really expect anything to change upon hitting 70 about these skills that would make the situation any different than what I'm currently experiencing.

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If you werent going oom then you weren't spamming clemency or holy spirit, there isn't much more to it than that. Refresh would hold you high for one or two pulls, not for the dungeon. You don't even have the passive that reduces your mp costs by half yet if I remember right.

Holy spirit doesn't have a lot of use in true aoe, but paladin aoe is pretty crap and it takes a lot of targets to make it worth using eclipse over holy spirit as far as damage is concerned.

Clemancy is great but you can't expect a Pali to constantly self heal. I had a hard time in groups beating susano because the healer assumed i would just heal myself. I was constantly running out of MP. Damage Mitigation is on me especially with that lovely Tank Buster but good lord don't expect me to self heal.

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Originally Posted by Presbytier

Clemancy is great but you can't expect a Pali to constantly self heal. I had a hard time in groups beating susano because the healer assumed i would just heal myself. I was constantly running out of MP. Damage Mitigation is on me especially with that lovely Tank Buster but good lord don't expect me to self heal.

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that more like problem on healer side, you should talk about it for them before pull, it take 2 combo for 1 clemency and 5 clemency to empty out your mp, it's not something you can spam at whim

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Originally Posted by Presbytier

Clemancy is great but you can't expect a Pali to constantly self heal. I had a hard time in groups beating susano because the healer assumed i would just heal myself. I was constantly running out of MP. Damage Mitigation is on me especially with that lovely Tank Buster but good lord don't expect me to self heal.

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8 man single target content is different to running dungeons. Healers are going to out-damage you on aoe pulls with little damage, but they aren't going to outdamage you on single target burn fights (and certainly not during the holy spirit part of your rotation which is where your mana would be going).

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Originally Posted by Furious

If you werent going oom then you weren't spamming clemency or holy spirit, there isn't much more to it than that. Refresh would hold you high for one or two pulls, not for the dungeon. You don't even have the passive that reduces your mp costs by half yet if I remember right.

Holy spirit doesn't have a lot of use in true aoe, but paladin aoe is pretty crap and it takes a lot of targets to make it worth using eclipse over holy spirit as far as damage is concerned.

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Couple of things.
1st: both Holy Spirit and the passive that reduces the cost are unlocked at 64.
2nd: Eclipse is better than Holy Spirit in any pull of 4+ mobs. Using Holy Spirit in those situations is a DPS loss and by the time the numbers are in Holy Spirit's favor, the mobs are already at Death's Doorstep anyway.
3rd: You cannot really spam Clemency or Holy Spirit and still maintain aggro. Yes, Clemency might help for a bit but good DPS will outpace the Emnity generation of it fairly easily and while Holy Spirit hits very hard, it doesn't generate enough Emnity per cast to outpace them either.
4th: Since Royal Authority has been changed to the Riot Blade combo set up, the amount of times I'm using Riot Blade has doubled resulting in more MP returns as well.

I said effectively spamming those skills, as in using it to its max potential without it affecting my role as tank. If I lost aggro because I was spamming Holy Spirit, that wouldn't be very effective now would it?

Before Lv 64 Paladin MP

Flash 707
Clemency 2121

If you go by the average of 5k MP pool - you can do about 2 Clemency before you try use the MP regen rotation for all of about 400-500 MP restored. Hardly a dent in your pool.

After Lv 64 and the trait unlocked that brings MP cost down by half for spell skills, MP is more manageable, but if you are expecting a Paladin to mass pull everything from the old style meta expect them to be low on MP just simply because you can not regain more than you spend, even using MP pots and burning a 2min cooldown. This is probably why Ice Mages (I mean Blackmage) has become a battery of likes, their 20% MP trade off can equate to half of the Paladin's entire MP.

The issue with the jump potion will be the same for every class, just like levelling up in PotD it won't help you master playing your class at all, if anything it adds to this suicidal method that most players seem to have

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Couple of things.
1st: both Holy Spirit and the passive that reduces the cost are unlocked at 64.

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I assumed you were 63, since you said you ran that dungeon.

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2nd: Eclipse is better than Holy Spirit in any pull of 4+ mobs. Using Holy Spirit in those situations is a DPS loss and by the time the numbers are in Holy Spirit's favor, the mobs are already at Death's Doorstep anyway.

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Depends on whether or not you have FoF or Requiescat available. And, that's pretty much what I said. As for being at death's door, damage is damage. It's either better or it's not.

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3rd: You cannot really spam Clemency or Holy Spirit and still maintain aggro. Yes, Clemency might help for a bit but good DPS will outpace the Emnity generation of it fairly easily and while Holy Spirit hits very hard, it doesn't generate enough Emnity per cast to outpace them either.

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Clemency has far more threat than total eclipse ever will. If you are missing the HP to be healed (or anyone else is), clemency generates base enemity equal to half the healing done (which means 600 potency of enmity PER TARGET). Clemency is our best aoe enmity generator, and 5.5 times better than total eclipse alone when it heals. It also doesn't suffer from the 20% "damage" reduction while in shield oath.

In shield oath, Total Eclipse generates 110*.8*2.7=237.6 potency per target.
Clemency generates 1200*.5*2.7=1620 potency of enmity per target. For it to equal total eclipse in enmity, it needs to do only 15% of its potential healing.

This is the reason why you sometimes see healers creeping up on your enmity on aoe pulls where other dps don't; the healing they do generates .5 enmity per point of healing but it applies it to every mob.

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4th: Since Royal Authority has been changed to the Riot Blade combo set up, the amount of times I'm using Riot Blade has doubled resulting in more MP returns as well.

I said effectively spamming those skills, as in using it to its max potential without it affecting my role as tank. If I lost aggro because I was spamming Holy Spirit, that wouldn't be very effective now would it?

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If you lost aggro while spamming clemency, you are doing it wrong or nobody is taking damage. Holy spirit is only good for not true aoe, but small target aoe (2-3), which is what I said.

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Originally Posted by Faeon

Maybe because they used a jump potion. Yes I noticed this when I done susano extreme, where the other tank did not even know what the tank buster is, and how to mitigate it with a cool down. taking a full hit is insta death. It will phase it's self out after a few months, when people had there fill.

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This...sadly as a drk tank I've seen so many new tanks that don't know their rotation or anything about general mechanics. Want to see pld using their wings more often.

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Originally Posted by Nabian

This...sadly as a drk tank I've seen so many new tanks that don't know their rotation or anything about general mechanics. Want to see pld using their wings more often.

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well i guess because some PLD take what devs said in a live letter too serious, devs said this skill use to protect your pt member doesnt mean you can't use it as 1 of your defensive cd if there are none to protect in the next 2 minutes, it goddamn 100% block rate in 18s, way better than Bulwark with only 60% block rate in 15s and have 3 minutes cd

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Originally Posted by ShariusTC

well i guess because some PLD take what devs said in a live letter too serious, devs said this skill use to protect your pt member doesnt mean you can't use it as 1 of your defensive cd if there are none to protect in the next 2 minutes, it goddamn 100% block rate in 18s, way better than Bulwark with only 60% block rate in 15s and have 3 minutes cd

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thinking in terms of susano, i dont have much need to use them. Its a movement heavy fight where i dont take much damage outside the tank buster. the times i'm usually struggling is when we're playing jump rope and healers are on the move too, but i cant stand my ground then due to the mechanics. I've noticed the damage reduction doesnt seem to make too much difference to party members, never managed to really save anyone with it... what it is helpful for is that moment when you used sheltron accidentally and dont have the guage for your guaranteed block... well then i spread my wings and the mistake is fixed. Dungeons its nice when i pull a bit too big or the enemies take too long to die. all cd's gone, with mp gone, can use that for a constant 24% damage reduction and to fill my guage so i get a couple sheltrons and maybe a couple clemencies when i come out of it

Personally I use half of my MP on Holy Spirit along with Requiescat and save the other half for Clemency to heal myself/others or to proc Divine Veil on the party. While Clemency is "optional" for us I believe if we have the ability to help healers we should take those opportunities when they arise.

Old habits are hard to break. The new skills are great but I only got paladin to 70 a couple days ago and sometimes I forget about them. We're barely over week out from the expansions full release, give folks some time. There is a lot of muscle memory built up around the old habits & rotations.