Proposed Dark Knight Indentity and Skill Changes

Part 1

Before I get into what I see as issues with dark knights, I would first like to thank the the developers for SB. I really enjoyed the story and game play elements, many of which felt new and creative.

I am primarily concerned with raiding and end game content. Having participated in the current ex primals I feel that dark knight is suffering from an identity crisis as well as being, in general, far less preferred than paladin. Paladin is bringing more to the table in general than either of the two other tanks, and at its heart this is the same imbalance than led to issues in the preference for War in 3.0. I believe the current theory crafters have hit the nail on the head, paladin is hitting harder, bringing more mitigation, have better self sustain, and more utility for the group than either warrior or dark knight. My excel spreadsheets of rotations also confirm this.

Part 2

Here are some of the issues I see with dark knights currently:

(a) DPS burst phases are very mp demanding, and it is easy to mp starve between blood weapons.

(b) We have no self sustain for stance dancing against raid bosses, where as pld is not locked out of clemency if they choose to switch to Sword Oath for a bit.

(c) Our strongest mitigation has the lockout of sentinel, and less utility than vengence.

(d) Mitgating with the darkest night is a small dps loss.

(e) Our ultimate cd is extremely healer dependent and useless in solo combat.

(f) though we have a 100% uptime on our dps buff, pld and warrior are much further ahead of us in terms of self damage buffs overall. Dark arts closes this gap, but you will mp starve trying to reach the same level.

(g) in general we do feel like paladin lite.

I would like to suggest the following changes, some mix of which may provide a more balanced tank experience, while staying true to the dark knight identity.

(1) all tanks need vit as part of their damage calulations or add strength to the fending right hand side.

(2) Dark Arts usage should add to blackblood gauge.

(3) Sole Survivor: I would like to see this changed to "converts dark knights damage to target to hp/mp/blackblood for 15 seconds" (2nd blood)

(4) Dark Wall: When struck enemies gain bleeding damage, 40 potency dot for 12 seconds. Dot damage is converted into dark knights hp (regen like).

(5) The darkest night: added effect: shield shatter targets the enemy which delivers the final blow to the shield, 10 potency dot for 12 seconds.

(6) Delirium: Dark Knight sacrifices 20% of maximum hp for 20 seconds, attack power doubles for duration. See Cecil.

(7) Living dead: damage taken by dark knight is converted into HP for 10 seconds.

If only we could all have our way for a day.

Has SE EVER taken an idea off the forums and put it into the game?

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

(b) We have no self sustain for stance dancing against raid bosses, where as pld is not locked out of clemency if they choose to switch to Sword Oath for a bit.
(d) Mitgating with the darkest night is a small dps loss.

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Clemency is a bigger DPS loss than TBN, heals probably less than 20% on PLD's max HP...and, with its cast time, can be wasted if a healer heals you in the meantime.

Besides, with it's short recast, TBN can be applied on top on any other mitigation tool with no decrease in value, surpassing Sentinel paired with Sheltron.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

(f) though we have a 100% uptime on our dps buff, pld and warrior are much further ahead of us in terms of self damage buffs overall.

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WAR can indeed apply Maim and Eye 100% of the time, on top of Bersek. On the other hand PLD has a lower average damage buff, with FoF around 12% average physical buff, and Requiescat a 4% average magic damage buff...with an additionnal condition.

I'd like to propose another addition, primarily to the blackest night. Using dark arts before TBN, while grit is off, will direct it's entirety to a single target as a dot over 10s.

Or maybe the amount of TBN that wasn't absorbed as damage, throughout it's duration, will return to drks as recovered hp after it's duration. (Hp recovered only if grit is active)

Can SE somehow change the rampart effect when it is being used on DRK? That no darkness effect rampart is triggering me. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Clemency is a bigger DPS loss than TBN, heals probably less than 20% on PLD's max HP...and, with its cast time, can be wasted if a healer heals you in the meantime.

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I won't get into the game of what ifs, but you can spam clemency in an emergency, you cannot spam TBN, it only buys you 5 seconds at most.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Besides, with it's short recast, TBN can be applied on top on any other mitigation tool with no decrease in value, surpassing Sentinel paired with Sheltron.

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Yes, the advantage to sheltron is having a faster recast time, it can be applied more frequently and does not bite into the mana/dps resource pool.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

WAR can indeed apply Maim and Eye 100% of the time, on top of Bersek. On the other hand PLD has a lower average damage buff, with FoF around 12% average physical buff, and Requiescat a 4% average magic damage buff...with an additionnal condition.

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The condition is fairly easy to meet in typical runs. Also you didn't include Sword oath in your calculations of dps buffs, which when you math it out you will find that it is surprisingly good at a 12~15% buff to total dps. Taking into account all buffs paladin comes out ahead.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Besides, with it's short recast, TBN can be applied on top on any other mitigation tool with no decrease in value, surpassing Sentinel paired with Sheltron.

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One more thing to note, though there is something to be said about diminishing returns on mitigation, there is also something to be said for the total amount mitigated. Because TBN is based on tank HP and not a %-mitigated there is a tipping point at which sentinel + sheltron will surpass shadow wall + TBN. Some quick math shows that tipping point being around 37K damage. Susano EX tank buster will kill a tank unmitigated, therefore sentinel + sheltron will mitigate more than shadow wall + TBN.

I think that instead of all of this, DRK would be made fine by giving TBN at 62 instead of Delirium.

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Originally Posted by Age_of_Oblivion

I think that instead of all of this, DRK would be made fine by giving TBN at 62 instead of Delirium.

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Honestly, I think TBN makes sense at 70. It's an effective mitigation tool with a very short recast period. You'll have it up and ready for every tank buster, plus it's ogcd. If I was a developer, I would think to save the better skills for last, so the player would have something to work for.

I think TBN giving a minor DPS loss is fine, considering that DRK should be all about MP management, and converting that MP to either extra damage or mitigation.

Other than that I generally agree with your assessment overall on the state of DRK. I think some of your proposed changes are pretty interesting but unfortunately I doubt Squeenix would implement them (they probably don't even look at these forums)

They probably look at the JPN forums, but definitely not the NA ones. But who knows? Maybe the players of the Homeland are complaining as much as we are.

From what I've heard JPN players are raising as much of a stink on the general tank issues, if not more. So that's reassuring.

I agree whole heartedly. Drk need to bring something unique outside of being the class that lack self sustain. Mitigation is on point, but 1 small change could easily fix the class. Heck if Soul Survivor gave drk 20 seconds of no mana loss the class would be better. He's not saying its bad. Just that its lacking more than the others. Its always been lacking but it at least did better dps than pld in heavensward and that wasn't by much.

I guess I will take my turn to be designer for a day then.


I think two of the things they gimped the most need to be better. Dark Passenger is garbage; I see that they did what they did to it so that it would come out of the ST rotation (for the mp it added 150 pot, very good) but they made it so bad it now has no use. They need to suck it up and revert it, it was only up every 30s anyway.

Blood Price was nerfed too far at 25% of its old value. Hell, they already locked it to Grit. Even if you use it with Delirium (low usage with its cooldown) to double the duration each use still only gives 1/2 the MP it did before. I think it needs to end up in the 50-75% range of its old MP returns if not just reverted out right. 25% of its old value is too little.

Some other things:

CnS. I think this has identity issues now that our big hit is Bloodspiller. You have several skills to throw DA: SS, SE, Bloodspiller, and this every 60s. I think it should match its text and become our version of Ninja's reworked DwD. Base it should do 3 hits at 150 pot ea with no Dark Arts effect, but an MP restore per hit if used in Grit. They took away a lot of our oGCDs (Reprisal, low blow, DP) to make things easier for the casuals and this would make how and when to use DA easier to know as well as keep it a strong, "must use on cooldown" ability. It was also provide Grit with yet another advantage.

Bloodspiller and Quietus come off the GCD.

Quietus DA potency move to 240, to make the MP for DA worth it on mobs of 3.

Soul Survivor needs SOME sort of use in ST fights and its MP return isn't so great now anyway with what SS can provide. I think attacking targets with SS active should build the Blackblood gage, with a bonus of 10-15 if they die under its effect.

There is a bunch of other stuff that I miss (Dark Dance, Reprisal, Scourge and Delirium visuals, etc) but I think this would make us good again, as well as more streamlined and fun. Some other tanking changes that are needed.

STR added to accessories. Obviously not in a 1:1 ratio with Vitality, but like the weaker of the two secondaries, with that being the cap so more melding STR.

Tenacity needs to be looked at as it currently looks like nothing and I think it is weird that Parry remains, but is hidden. This should be tied to weapons and the number visible, like block rate and amount on shields.

Damn 1000 char limit!!!

Of course, none of this will ever happen so..............

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Originally Posted by Dalmacus

Can SE somehow change the rampart effect when it is being used on DRK? That no darkness effect rampart is triggering me. :rolleyes:

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This is like the only valid issue here.

I agree, it should be the most interesting mechanically. To me, dark knights have sacrificed their own hp/mana/defense in exchange for power, using dark magics to cripple or drain resources from an enemy. Currently we sorta do that with syphon strike and souleater, and both of these are either enhanced by or only available in the defensive stance, grit. I would like to seem them play up our identity more than button mashing "dark arts" and using three absorbtion abilities. We'll see what comes in coming weeks, but I think dark knights are in worse shape than people think, I think when people begin to optimize they will find dark knight is worse off than warrior atm.

I really like the idea of tbn, that we hope the shield isn't quite enough so we can get an attack out of it with bloodspiller. I like how it makes drk feel like an "opportunist" tank, compared to paladins altruistic clemency, cover and divine veil (used purely to help party members) and war's selfish, me vs boss playstyle. I really would find that an interesting identity, though it's never going to happen. Skills like "target party member gains 10% increased damage, and 20% of their damage is returned to you as health." Or "creates bond with target party member, as one of you is healed so is the other" for receiving double the effects of aoe healing. Something that seems to be helping others, with the real Intention of helping the dark knight

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Originally Posted by Falar

If only we could all have our way for a day.

Has SE EVER taken an idea off the forums and put it into the game?

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Yes, though not always the ones we want them to take.

A few years back when AST's Ewer and Spire reduced the MP/TP cost of abilities for 20 seconds, I was beating the "change it to a refresh!" drum loud AF (and I'm sure some others were as well) and they eventually DID change it to a refresh.

Of course, it could've just been that people on the Japanese forums were asking for the same...