WAR is Trash Tier Now

Changes that need to be made:

• Stance Dancing: Beast should not be reduced when you switch
• Infuriate: Usable outside of combat instead of a jank tomahawk>infuriate> Unchained. If you do not register on threat list but are in combat the skill doesn’t work
• Shake It Off: Useless since zerk change, needs to remove stun and bloodbath’s ability put onto it as well
• Butcher’s Block: Needs to give 20 beast gauge instead of 10
• Onslaught: DMG loss either needs to cost no beast gauge
• Inner Release: Needs to be taken off a shared cooldown with Unchained and have its cooldown reduced to 60 seconds.
• Berserk: WAR is currently buffed less of the time than the two other tanks
• Fell Cleave: Needs to have a buff as PLD and DRK average potency is around 70 higher so cleave needs to put up to around 600-700 potency
• STR/VIT: 270 STR accessories > 310 as STR bonus is better than VIT

Just...leave it alone, man!

With the release of Xeno's WAR video people can finally hop off the DRK hate bandwagon. DRK does work in the dps department and the blackest night is so so good.

https://youtu.be/R99HlEz9pOQ

WAR is clunkier than it used to be, but it isn't a complete disaster.

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Originally Posted by PK_THUNER

https://youtu.be/R99HlEz9pOQ

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And what's your point? He also has a video of his PLD doing 3100 dps. So same dmg but PLD has way more utility than warrior and is much easier to play.

Did you just 1-1 copy exactly what Xeno said in his video without thinking about how equally broken that sounds?

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Originally Posted by Ciderfox

And what's your point? He also has a video of his PLD doing 3100 dps. So same dmg but PLD has way more utility than warrior and is much easier to play.

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No he didn't. This is with fending accessories. The 3100 dps is without fending accessories. Without fending accessories he has a video with 3255 dps.

Butcher's block shouldn't generate 20 gauge, it's already the enmity and highest potency combo. Right now you need to weigh the benefit of the extra potency against the extra gauge generated by path combo, which can be used for onslaught (like it or not it's ogcd so you can use it for extra dps when upheaval is on cd).

I do agree that the stance switch penalty makes the class clunky. Being able to use lv 60 accessories is just a stupid oversight on the dev's part, it'll probably be patched soon.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Just...leave it alone, man!

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No do not leave it alone, voice your concerns so that SE never has a single day without some reminder about how much they messed up.
Do I believe they will change these things? No but even so they need to hear what we think about the sorry state of things, a state they created, a state people could see coming after the media tour and so voiced their concerns over and was completely and utterly ignored. This entire mess was avoidable but SE chose to not avoid it. So no we should not leave it alone.

WAR has still a ton of defensive cooldowns. making it an incredible MT.
The main issue atm is that it brings almost no utility.
Also PLD got all the love, which let's DRK and WAR look bad, despite them being great tank jobs.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

WAR has still a ton of defensive cooldowns. making it an incredible MT.
The main issue atm is that it brings almost no utility.
Also PLD got all the love, which let's DRK and WAR look bad, despite them being great tank jobs.

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i think it's fine if SE want to make WAR the only tank that offer no utility to the party
but at least make them able to deal damage and/or survivability above the other 2 tanks to make up for that

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Butcher's block shouldn't generate 20 gauge, it's already the enmity and highest potency combo. Right now you need to weigh the benefit of the extra potency against the extra gauge generated by path combo, which can be used for onslaught (like it or not it's ogcd so you can use it for extra dps when upheaval is on cd).

I do agree that the stance switch penalty makes the class clunky. Being able to use lv 60 accessories is just a stupid oversight on the dev's part, it'll probably be patched soon.

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Yeah I can understand butchers not being 20 but a lot off the other stuff still stands I think. I loved playing WAR and it's pretty terrible now as it's nowhere near as fun or strong.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

WAR has still a ton of defensive cooldowns. making it an incredible MT.
The main issue atm is that it brings almost no utility.
Also PLD got all the love, which let's DRK and WAR look bad, despite them being great tank jobs.

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At the moment there's no reason to take a WAR into end game content as it does less DMG and has less utility than both DRK and WAR.

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Originally Posted by BabyLeviathan

At the moment there's no reason to take a WAR into end game content as it does less DMG and has less utility than both DRK and WAR.

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Agreed, and Warrior being my main.. And not liking the other two tank styles that much. I honestly lost most of my motivation to even play the game.. Sadly. I'm sure i'm not the only one who feels this way.

https://image.prntscr.com/image/m7zb...y1yCVnMS-Q.png

On a side note, having to wear 270 strength accessories now just makes me want to face desk. We had a great system for tanks, this feels like a freaking tank purge.. All tanks across the board are being punished for playing a class nobody else wants to play.

The current version of war feels clunky but not weak or unplayable. It needs quality of life tweaks with Onslaught and stance switching being too costly and Shake it off being too situational (for now)

I'll stick to my warrior but do hope it gets some fine tuning during the expansion.

I don't know if it has been written somewhere already, but, does the "reduce slashing resistance of 10%" effect on Maim stacks with the same "reducing slashing resistance of 10%" on Yukikaze of the Samurai?
And if it does, does it stacks additively or multiplicatively?

I mean, knowing the samurai is potencially the highest dps class, it can actually bring a lot of damage. So I guess the dmg brought by WAR would be still higher than the 2 others in every cases if there are SAM allies.

The changes suggested by Xeno are overkill.
Change the Stance penalty to a flat 20 gauge, remove the share CD on unchained/IR and drop onslaught to 10 gauge and WAR would be in a very good spot.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

The changes suggested by Xeno are overkill.
Change the Stance penalty to a flat 20 gauge, remove the share CD on unchained/IR and drop onslaught to 10 gauge and WAR would be in a very good spot.

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no it's not an overkill, if inner release cooldown is still 2 minutes cooldown WAR DPS wise will still struggle against DRK/PLD, and as xeno said using onslaught is a dps loss so if SE still want to keep up the "consume gauge to use" thingy then they should buff the damage to at least 200
considering they have no utility at the moment that means they will still in end up in an unfavorable position and there's no reason to pick them up in raids

I also think that BB with 20, although very welcomed, may cause more harm than cure. The reason why it gives 10, is so that Storm's Path can be still valid combo.
If we put put 20 to BB you would have to either nerf it's potency (which will hurt our tanking skills or buff Path potency, so WAR OT won't use BB)

Idea of IR being on 60 seconds is overkill, but I think that if it will stay on 120 and won't share CD with Unchained it will bring alot of fluidy to how we can plan (Unchained + Berserk + BBs for hate spike, IR + Berserk + FC for dmg spike, each every 60s).

Ideas are here and there are many to choose from by SE. It's only a question whether SE will go 2.x way or 3.x way of tank fixing.

*Edited : shao32 answered me*

Inner release on every Berserk window would be pretty ridiculous.
Onslaught cost too much gauge but it fine the way it is in terms of potency. At 10 gauge, you're pretty much doing an ogcd FC over time. It would work great to regulate gauge consumption for zerk windows and make use of the enhanced infuriate trait.
Shake it off, too early to tell. If we can use it on future raid, it saves a gcd a healer can use on a dps move, plus potentially increase our uptime.
BB at 20 rage in plain ridiculous if it our highest potency combo, our gauge builder and enmity move. Increasing S.Path to the same potency as BB wiuld make more sense, but still I don't think we need it to close the gap.

Also, I think it's flaud to evaluate WAR only from a deliverance stance point. We have the best mitigation toolkit and just adjusting the stance penalty and decoupling unchained/IR would make WAR the best MT.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

I don't know if it has been written somewhere already, but, does the "reduce slashing resistance of 10%" effect on Maim stacks with the same "reducing slashing resistance of 10%" on Yukikaze of the Samurai?
And if it does, does it stacks additively or multiplicatively?

I mean, knowing the samurai is potencially the highest dps class, it can actually bring a lot of damage. So I guess the dmg brought by WAR would be still higher than the 2 others in every cases if there are SAM allies.

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is the same buff and cant be stack, and cant be avoid for SAM or NINJA bcs offer a sen and a dot too in they respective jobs

edit to Fannah: np ^^

Thanks shao32 for the answer ^^ (I believe they should make them stackable but nvm, it would make some synergy between classes, which is what they seemed to want for SB)

So... it means the best dps (SAM) synergizes well with the best tank (PLD). Good design here :p

I love this. Now WAR will feel like PLD felt in 3.x

SB best expansion ever.

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

I love this. Now WAR will feel like PLD felt in 3.x

SB best expansion ever.

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they already did in the past, it's called 2.0
and that's a shit mentality to have, that means if PLD somehow ended up in the same shithole as they were in 3.x in the future they should not get fixed because they were cocky in 4.0 is that what you're trying to say?

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Originally Posted by konpachizaraki

they already did in the past, it's called 2.0
and that's a shit mentality to have, that means if PLD somehow ended up in the same shithole as they were in 3.x in the future they should not get fixed because they were cocky in 4.0 is that what you're trying to say?

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Yep, have fun.

Inuk9, make sport, you need it to express your energy due to your rage :p

I have to agree that WAR IMO will probably be the less played of all Tanks. PLD has a lot of fun toys and utility and DRK can drop their stance and still maintain their gauge for no cost as well as having an oh shit shield.

Warrior in turn offers very little and is punished severely for changing stance. Which honestly I think should be removed. Onslaught I feel should cost 10 rage or simply just be a free deal like Plunge. Of all the skills only Inner Release for the rage cost decrease and Upheaval for being a good attack are the only skills that have value.

As for utility there really is none. And it's because of this I have been debating if WAR is worth even leveling.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

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As nice as Inner Release is. It basically is just a tradeoff for unchained. So we got our 70 skill and lost our 50 skill
All in all. WAR got 1 skill in this expansion.
Onslaught - not worth it
Upheaval - Fantastic
Shake it off - is an insult
Inner release - just replaced unchained

Been thinking. WAR should build rage under effects of Vengeance and other skills. Other tanks have ways to passively build their gauges. WAR is only through Infuriate and damage.

Thoughts?

I feel like I'm the only one not completely upset with the WAR changes....only thing I really miss is bloodbath... T.T

But I mean really....you can work around everything else....granted I'm only 65 with it due to life obligations but its going to be my first 70...

Am I just missing something here due to not being at 70 yet?

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

I feel like I'm the only one not completely upset with the WAR changes....only thing I really miss is bloodbath... T.T

But I mean really....you can work around everything else....granted I'm only 65 with it due to life obligations but its going to be my first 70...

Am I just missing something here due to not being at 70 yet?

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1) You're not the only one.

2) You're missing the theoretical part of being 70 and never bringing your WAR to a raid because nobody will ever bring a WAR to raid, not ever, not even if Hell froze over...so says the forum...because reasons!

Class/role forum logic dictates however, that when one has any concerns/ideas for improving a class/role, one must shriek loudly and explain things in the most dire, worst case scenario terms possible. Therefore, it is not enough to say "uhm, STR is new dmg scaler, and none of our accessories come with STR..hello SE...anyone?" You have to phrase it as "because our accessories don't have STR, we will never go on a raid, WAR will boycott, turn off the servers, queue times will destroy game, mass hysteria AARRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!! This apparently puts "emphasis" on the point that like almost every non-FotM job in any xpac in any MMO ever, things could be improved somewhat.

First rule of enjoying your job/class/role in any game - never visit the forums for that job/class/role.

Silver, I think at the point where you're at, you haven't done much tanking so you don't really see the problems yet.

To me, warrior went from a self healing/dps tank to one that relies on cooldowns and its just not that fun.

A couple other factors play into why warrior is not fun anymore. 1 is the rage cost for swapping stances, 2 is onslaught costing rage, and 3 is trying to line up 3 cooldowns really sucks the fun out of the fell cleave spam.

I suggest: making stance swap a fixed cost and making it reasonble, removing rage cost from onslaught, and baking berserk into infuriate or inner release or getting rid if one of the three cooldowns in some way.

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Originally Posted by Venjenz

1) You're not the only one.

2) You're missing the theoretical part of being 70 and never bringing your WAR to a raid because nobody will ever bring a WAR to raid, not ever, not even if Hell froze over...so says the forum...because reasons!

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LOL Now my co-workers think I'm crazy since I laughed out loud to ....well this post...so thanks for that...

I guess I will never understand why people just can't work with what they got....It just seems far worse lately with SB than it did for HW...but maybe I've forgotten a few things over the years...

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Originally Posted by P4X0R10N

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I've done a ton of tanking (WOOOO for getting level locked twice in MSQ....)in SB thus far low and high (to my level). I started way back when as a "super bad pld" according to everyone, but I rocked the crap out of that "bad" class. I actually find Warrior to be even more fun with the gauge, and swapping stances, if you plan it out, won't hurt your gauge that badly. Plan out your swap and it's not that bad. But thats just me and my opinion :D I just learned from the "bad" paladin days I suppose to just use what I have to the fullest....even if you "suck" for wanting to play as it.






But as VenJenz pointed out, its is definitely the end of the world, so I guess I will just see myself out..... o/

Venjenz. To be fair, if he hasn\\'t done the dungeon in Azim steppe, he\\'s only done one maybe 2 dungeons and 1 trial. It\\'s hard to see the problems at that point with limited experience.

But wouldn\\'t u agree that some issues brought up are valid? Like shake it off is literally useless at this point? One shouldn\\'t have to wait for raids to be able to put an ability to use.

Second, I\\'d argue onslaught is useless too. There was literally no occasion in any dungeon or trial I\\'ve done from 60 to 70 end of msq where onslaught would have been needed or even beneficial considering the rage cost.

Third, warrior were dps, self healing tanks for the longest time

, now I feel it relies heavily on just chaining one damage mitigation cooldown after another. Kind of lost its identity you know?

I\\\\\\'m not good at articulating my thoughts and critiques, so I\\\\\\'ll just sum it up by saying that the class used to feel smooth and fluid, but now feels clunky. And where I felt that everyone of my abilities had its uses, I now have at least 2 that really are useless.

Don\\\\\\'t dismiss people\\\\\\'s critiques off the bat. I think some are valid

Really hope we get some kind of feedback from se soon.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

I believe they should make them stackable but nvm, it would make some synergy between classes, which is what they seemed to want for SB)

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dont think that, if they make it stakable then thats make WAR insta mandatory again, you know whe have serious issues with high DPS mentalitys over everything that make if this case happen DRK out of the formula, in the way we have know allow us to have DRK/PLD with a SAM or NIN with no need to have a WAR, and have WAR/(insert tank here) for set ups that dont include NIN or SAM, well this one is hard know with all the SAM walking around.

i dont think anything of this doom is as severe as some are trying to say, but i agreed for a "we go to put special love in balancing tanks and healers" was pretty bad, i think SE need to put all they combat desing team lock in a room and solve the issue for the tanks and stop walking in circles again and again.

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Originally Posted by P4X0R10N

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I don't have Shake It Off yet, so no idea how useful it is or isn't.

I use Onslaught. It has a variety of uses for bosses and trash. Distance closers are just handy tanking tools imho, especially ones that grant extra aggro. Could it do more dmg, generate more enmity and/or cost less? Sure, and maybe someday it will. But it works just fine in its current form for what it is supposed to do - close distance instantly. I use it when it makes sense, and I like having it.

Minus Bloodbath, WAR still are DPS self healing tanks. Minus Bloodbath, most of our self-heals are still there. The change to Berserk makes me feel more DPS-y, not less.

And yeah, it does feel like there is more defensive CD going on, but WAR are tanks so....

I guess I have done MMOs long enough to understand that every xpac gets followed with tweaks and updates on every class for at least the first 4-6 months. WAR could use a tweak here and a twist there, sure. But the reality in game is nowhere near as unplayable and godawful as people are making it sound. Fixing Tenacity would be huge, but there's no way SE doesn't understand that already. The scaling sucks ass, is worse than parry, and is clearly a development screw up (imho). Stuff will get tweaked/fixed. Bank on it.

Venjenz, I hope we get something soon with omega coming out.

On a tangent here, but war is great in pvp. = D