[SPOILER] Garlean Territory Treatments

SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER BELOW THIS LINE!

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So there is a side-Storyline quest chain late in the MSQ where you meet a former garlean officer.

This quest chain provides a lot of Garlean lore mostly involving different beliefs and treatment among Garleans.

On one side there are some Garleans who treat the conquered territories fairly and not much is changed but on the other side we see cruel treatment such as in Ala Mhigo and Othard.

There are even knowledge that not all Garleans treat non-Garleans like we see in Othard and Ala Mhigo but instead do in fact attempt to improve the lives of the territories. Plenty of Non-garleans also make up the high ranks of Garlean Empire's army and given full citizenship after 20 years of service.

What do you think about this lore and how do you think SE may expand on this later in FF14 storyline especially once we enter Garlemald?

It's been know that Garlemald has changed things for the better at times since 2.0, as Rhitahtyn mentions that his homeland was on the verge of collapsing in itself before Gaius arrived.

Even Gaius wasn't what I could call a truly bad person, as he mostly just wanted to dispel the primal threat, and you learn in a sidequest that he was openly opposed to the development of a chemical super weapon.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

What do you think about this lore and how do you think SE may expand on this later in FF14 storyline especially once we enter Garlemald?

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I'd like to see them one day. We can't fight the Garleans forever; the Ascians want a steady and predictable escalation of conflict - each side striving for more power, in balance, until Calamity (rather than Flood). If we're to beat them, this war needs to end.

Of course, that's assuming we can't trust Elidibus and unity with the Dark isn't just fine. He didn't seem keen to elucidate what place we'd have once Zodiark and Hydaelyn were one again. Incidentally, in Japanese, he says "Of course." when Varis asks, but it isn't clear to me what he meant. Of course mortals would have a place? Of course that's he'd ask that? Of course he doesn't trust him? Didn't Eli already admit back in 2.1 that mortals would need to [hard pause] "change"?

I still don't buy it. This is how "He seemed so reasonable, but then it was too late!" villains act. Though, I didn't trust Aymeric, either (hair too nice, voice too smooth, wanted to give us too much), and he's our bff now. Maybe I'm just a bad judge of fictional character.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Even Gaius wasn't what I could call a truly bad person, as he mostly just wanted to dispel the primal threat, and you learn in a sidequest that he was openly opposed to the development of a chemical super weapon.

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It felt like a balancing act to me.

This is the second time Gaius has been used to raise up another villain only for it to make him look sympathetic on the curve. The first was probably an accident; they needed Darnus to look like an increasingly-unstable lunatic, but it just made Gaius look reasonable while they kept him in reserve until ARR. Him suddenly becoming a powerful frenemy for a bit didn't help, either. We knew the sack and subjugation of Ala Mhigo were brutal, and of course the Resistance would declare him evil, but once the VIIth showed up, everyone commented about how the atmosphere changed ... basically to what we see life like under the XIIth here.

In Stormblood, it was the same. They wouldn't have anyone root for Zenos, so they made him completely unsympathetic. But the plot also demands that the people have been suffering for longer than Gaius has been dead. How do you show that he wasn't just as bad? Show him acting consistently with his stance on Project Meteor. Highlight that indiscriminate killing was abhorrent to him, that it mistreated subjects one was responsible for ruling and denied them their right to earn their place. It creates that sense of contrast.

The people of Ala Mhigo suffered under Zenos because he took pleasure in it and his legion reflected that. They suffered under Baelsar all the same, but because they were weak and resigned themselves to squalor rather than earn merit or die trying; they were a burden and they earned that place. (Ironic that he and Ilberd seem to have agreed on that point.)

I'd like to see a few of the legions that Gaius felt ruled justly; that exemplified the Empire he believed in (until it threw him under the doom train).

To allow myself a moment of self-indulgent musing...

This is a big part of why I feel that his death was thematically askew. He never never quite lived up to his own reputation. He instead ended up utilized to put the reputations of others in a more threatening context. Not only was he turned into Nael van Darnus's lapdog and an Ascian pawn, even as an (alleged) corpse he's being used as a narrative step-stool.

I can alllmost make it fit as an ironic tragedy about a man who only ever truly cared about his own legacy. He was desperate from failing at Silvertear, from being kicked around by Darnus, from the Emperor's looming death. The Black Wolf's bark was worse than his bite, leaning on Lahabrea rather than standing on his own. In the end even the invasion of Eorzea is credited both in its initial success and its eventual undermining to Varis and the Ivy. Except it's bookended by things that don't jive with it; with his military record or with how he acted during the Calamity. And then he wears the number XIV while having the least influence on his invasion and embracing death by explosion in a story whose theme is reborn from the ashes. Awkward.

Or maybe I'm just a badge judge of fictional character. ;)

I don't think it's the devs' fault. Gaius was meant to be bad guy of a base game, they put him on hold and he died in his base game. So did the Archbishop. It's just that a series of unexpected developmental twists and turns just happened to compound in the big picture not looking right to this one lore-loving Lalafell especially.

Death should never be cheap; the dead should stay dead. Yet they've bent lore more for less when they felt there was something to gain. Even Nanamo "died" harder than standing surrounded by flames as the camera cuts, and surviving that was planned. It wouldn't be entirely unsound if his character arc had a few more degrees on it. Does that make it probable, or even advisable except under specific circumstances? Not by a long shot.

I suppose this is just my G'raha Tia Moment. <ribs Fenral>

Still, if you think that means I'm getting off the "He's probably dead, but I'm rooting for him anyway." train, you've got another think coming. It's been a running joke too long and I mean to see it through. The last best chance window doesn't close until at least 4.3! #BlackWolfLives

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

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Regarding your "merit to earn their place" remark Moose, I think you may have just figured out Fordola (if you hadn't already). Someone who was deadset on showing that Ala Mhigans weren't some backwards savage race, and willing to go to great lengths to prove it. She probably enlisted while Gaius reigned, and then once Zenos took over he saw a fun pawn to toy with, so he did. As such, she's a corruption of the nobility Gaius held, bent and eventually broken to the sadistic whims of Zenos.

As for Gaius and his death, I've long believed he's done and gone. But after the end-of-credits teaser I no longer believe that to be 100% true. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. White's reveal to Varis was associated with this.

As far as Gaius goes, I'm very much in agreement with Anonymoose but I'd go even further and point to Regula as well. Both men displayed quite a bit of honour during their time in the spotlight and even off-screen.

Much of Doma's and Ala Mhigo's suffering is directly attributed to Zenos' cruelty. He has very few redeeming qualities himself - and I feel that it is very telling that some of the worst elements of Garlemald's recent history are now directly on his shoulders rather than his father's own.

I would very much like to see the Emperor live up to his reputation as a pragmatic tactician rather than fall prey to Ascian manipulation like so many others. Within the lore book - and now in-game - there's references to the oppression that the Garleans themselves endured. We've also seen many Garleans suffer as a result of unhinged individuals such as Nael and Zenos. This is very apparent during 4.0 with Zenos ordering some of his own men to be sacrificed during a key battle as well as casually killing those who displease him.

I would also like to see it highlighted in the story that the Garleans never had a 'Warrior of Light' to protect them in the same way as Eorzea did. As a result, they were forced to do whatever was needed to endure and survive. I very much hope that Kugane's Garlean Consulate will be used to host meetings with a prominent Garlean who desires reform and diplomacy with the Warrior of Light and Scions. I would be very disappointed if it just ends up being a dungeon and/or the Garleans are forced to depart Kugane altogether.

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Originally Posted by Quor

I think you may have just figured out Fordola (if you hadn't already). Someone who was deadset on showing that Ala Mhigans weren't some backwards savage race, and willing to go to great lengths to prove it. She probably enlisted while Gaius reigned, and then once Zenos took over he saw a fun pawn to toy with, so he did. As such, she's a corruption of the nobility Gaius held, bent and eventually broken to the sadistic whims of Zenos.

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Nailed it, imho. That's my exact reading.

Baelsar's rule would trap her in a mentality whereby Ala Mhigo was lost and that they should strive for a future as part of the Empire. She would believe that strong nations could thrive under Garlean rule, that Ala Mhigo was conquered because it was weak and could not do it's part on the world's behalf; it was a liability and rotted from within. She would believe that if they could stand proud as part of the Empire, they wouldn't be crushed beneath it. (SEE: Rhitahtyn.) Fordola was terrified of dying anywhere but on the battlefield winning her people something to be proud of, to be rewarded for. That in itself is gruesome ... but they don't call it subjugation for nothing. ("Freedom is an opportunity.")

Zenos did everything he could to intensify both her hope to achieve that future and her feelings that she'd failed to live up - that she was the very embodiment of the stereotypes she fought to free her people from - filling her full of hate and resentment until all she wanted was power, and to wield that power violently against those who made her feel below them.

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Originally Posted by Quor

But after the end-of-credits teaser I no longer believe that to be 100% true.

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I want to believe.

As ever, I admit that the probability is nil ... but I want to believe.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I would also like to see it highlighted in the story that the Garleans never had a 'Warrior of Light' to protect them in the same way as Eorzea did. As a result, they were forced to do whatever was needed to endure and survive.

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I actually thought this was done a little bit (though unintentionally, probably) with the assault on Doma Castle. The Garleans have what are essentially flying tanks and some savages clinging to bird things with axes and bows take them out like they're nothing just because they can use aether (assuming that warrior-types just kind of unconsciously use it to enhance their combat prowess, otherwise nothing makes sense). Magic seems really, really overpowered compared to even the strongest magitek these guys can muster. The Domans probably would have been fine without Warrior-of-Light and company.

This could also just be SE failing to show proper battles/scale though. It seemed like the entire garrison at Doma Castle consisted of like 50 dudes, a noncombatant woman, and a cyborg. Same thing with Ala Mhigo, which was occupied for decades but took a couple days to liberate.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

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Mm.

I think in large part it was a case of 'rule of cool'. Which, thankfully, is now applying to the antagonists just as often as the protagonists. I'm hoping that continues. With how 'easily' magitek is being countered, though, it risks causing Garlemald to invest in increasingly dangerous means of self defence. Which, in turn, should push the Scions and Warrior of Light to focus a little less on Eorzea and more on actually mending relations between Garlemald and the rest of Hydaelyn. This, too, applies to Sharlayan which is hoarding knowledge and most likely conducting all manner of questionable experiments in the name of preservation.

Still, where Doma is concerned I believe many troops were pulled out of the region over time. Zenos' disregard for the well-being and efficiency of his troops can't have helped either. Furthermore, Hien flooding the castle apparently wiped out much of the magitek and troops which were stationed there. Which, incidentally, means they likely drowned given that they didn't have the ability to breathe underwater like the Warrior of Light. That's interesting in itself as I imagine the Eorzeans/Domans would be outraged if their own troops were the ones to be washed away and made to suffer such a horrific demise. One might consider it to be one of the worst ways to perish as it is painful and slow.

It makes for brilliant shades of grey, though. I'm so pleased that a lot were displayed throughout 4.0 both in the MSQ's and side quests. I think we'll see a point where both sides are forced to come to an agreement to prevent escalation as it doesn't benefit anybody for one side to be completely wiped out or gutted. The Garleans, too, deserve a place in the world - especially after all they've been through themselves. They're often described as being efficient and pragmatic in the lore book, though, so here's hoping they'll come to embrace diplomacy and trade in the future.

I was really pleased to see so much of the reading-between-the-lines subtext on Garlemald become canon with this expansion. It took a while, but they're writing their way to a place where the evil empire can start seeming more like an empire with some evil elements and not just evil personified. I can finally stop sounding like an apologist!

And now I'm left to my vain hopes for the planned Garlemald/Allag story arc. I mean, who could possibly provide the Allagan perspective for such a thing? There's not a single soul alive who rememb--*flinch*

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I suppose this is just my G'raha Tia Moment. <ribs Fenral>

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Agh, not in the ribs! (It feels good to let it out, doesn't it?)

Now to wait for Eureka, and whatever non-developments it may bring...

I was thinking about this the other day and aside from zeno's own cruelty I'd also point out that the treatment of different provinces would vary on the industries they provide, doma and ala mhigo both don't provide much that the garleans don't already have save for unique warrior castes who would more or less fall into the conscription category, the rest fall under menial labor and since the fruits of said labor again don't provide much to the empire they'd simply just leave it as a hole for those too poor or lack the skills required to move up the social ladder. If say limsa was annexed for example they would probably take advantage of the location and turn it into a resort location, possibly a trading hub or even use their knowledge of the seas to colonize new locations that the garleans haven't reached yet and can't devote airship resources to. Ul'dah could serve as a trade hub and provide some extra mines, including ceruleum ones. Ishgard and gridania would likely just fall into the same trap as ala mhigo/doma although gridania's healing arts may provide some additional medical techniques.

I just finished polishing off the side quests in The Fringes and there's a quest chain in Castrum Oriens that reveals that Gaius van Baelsar shut down an experimental project into chemical weapons as he saw the people of Eorzea as 'future subjects of the Empire to be ruled, not savages to be slaughtered.'

Which may have been brought up already, either here or elsewhere but I figured I'd bring it up regardless as I literally just finished it myself. Regula van Hydrus appeared to have a similar code of honour as shown by his willingness to accept the flawed nature of the technology binding The Warring Triad within Azyz Lla. Then there's the whole heroic sacrifice angle they took with him as well as him insisting that the Emperor may have need of the Warrior of Light in the future. Which, in hindsight, makes me wonder if that was a subtle hint at the future direction of the story given the ending of 4.0.