This is just about SMN pet ability sustain. We need it back. Physick, Erase or party AoE is not helping the pets survive. Also the MP cost, re-summon time(dps loss) and aggro issues, without being able to maintain our Egi's health is very frustrating. I can deal with out spur, though I miss it. But Sustain was far too useful. Either that needs to come back, or add a "regen" effect to one of the new cross class abilities that can target the Egi.
We NEED Sustain back-SMN
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06-22-2017, 05:22 AMLordPhantomhiveWe NEED Sustain back-SMN
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06-22-2017, 07:05 AMExodus-E
Or adjust Physick so it scales off INT (similar to RDM's Vercure) for SMN.
That would also make it useful for others. -
06-22-2017, 07:08 AMPotatoTree
I have a bunch of complaints about the new SMN, but I literally have 0 issues with losing sustain. I can see if you're soloing sure, but in any raid scenario I use it extremely rarely. How are you guys killing your pets so often? And even in soloing I just tank the mob myself and burst the enemy down like any other caster/ranged dps would do.
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06-22-2017, 07:17 AMDkDerek
Yeah I don't really care about sustain either. The aethertrail/aetherflow combined stack thing is absolute bs and needs fixing. If we miss a fester or something, it should NOT consume a flow stack OR it should ALWAYS grant a trail stack regardless if you missed with bane/fester.
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06-22-2017, 08:51 AMClaviusnexI've also been running into needing it in dungeons recently as a number of healers haven't been healing the pet.Quote:
Originally Posted by PotatoTree
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06-22-2017, 08:57 AMRongwayWhat dungeons do so much damage to pets that AoE heals can't keep them alive?Quote:
Originally Posted by Claviusnex
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06-22-2017, 10:09 AMSunako
Only where i have needed sustain if i wanna solo A rank hunts with titan. In savage and extreme content never needed sustain if moved the pet properly.
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06-22-2017, 11:52 AMEspionisPlease give us something to make up for sustain
For smn i can understand the desire to attempt to balance pets out. With sustain removed titan-egi is really not worth it for solo. You effectively ruined the point of a tank pet for solo. Might as well go for higher dps with garuda and ifrit and hope its a kill the enemy before you situation. FF 14 Dev team, please consider something to make titan egi useful again for those solo moments that are usually part of the MSQ or the rare difficult overworld situation where too much spawns to attack you at once mid fight.
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06-22-2017, 01:10 PMvikteren
I also agree we need sustain back or some way of keeping the pets alive. In dungeons my pets are not getting the enough benefit from aoe heals to keep them alive. As for solo play either give me something to keep titan alive long enough to justify using him over Garuda or Ifrit or delete him and give me something useful in its place. You made SMN so dependent on their pets this expansion but then took any way of keeping them on the field away it makes no sense. If you are counting on say Bahamut resetting the pets health I would like to point out that the Dragon is a level 70 ability and thus no use to places we are synced down. Last point Titan was already considered the worst of the three summons with limited use you just made him a dead ability if I want a tank I will take my Chocobo use Garuda and have Chocobo spaced tank/healer hybrid. Granted this might not be a issue in a static group but I PUG, thus cant depend on my healer knowing that my pet needs love to.
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06-22-2017, 01:23 PMMreed
I would like Sustain back also, or at least some way to heal my pet more effectively. I solo a lot, and Titan just dies faster for me than he used to, or at least he seems to.
If people thought he was OP before, I'd be fine with a compromise. Physick just isn't sufficient at the moment. -
06-22-2017, 05:45 PMNeelaI think most of the smns were used to be way more flexible solo than others cls - the only issue with loosing sustain are overmobbing (which is also nerfed by the aoe adjustments) and solo fate boss fighting. Dunno why so many gave "leveling" as argument, it's still possible even with ruda/ifrit instead of titan.Quote:
Originally Posted by PotatoTree
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06-22-2017, 06:54 PMMairissa
I don't know what I do wrong, but every time I try to use Titan , I steal enmity so fast it's not even funny. So there is absolutely no point using it to tank. I kill things faster with Garuda and healing chocoboo , and if I can't kill something, it really is not worth my time anyway.
In a12s I used to loose my dear Garuda when we were learning, but then a friend gave me a piece of advice where to position it during phases, and her survival rate became almost 100%.
So loosing Sustain is something I didn't notice at all. -
06-22-2017, 06:59 PMMindiori
Considering they clearly want to improve jobs thematically and make them more distinct (BRD/MCH serves as an example) it serves zero purpose removing sustain and decreasing pet interactivity. Removing it was a mistake (i used it throughout leveling to top off egi's) and nobody makes people use it, just because its there, if they happen to dislike it either.
So why not return it? Seems simple. Just reactivate the skill in this instance SE. Easy fix, ability pruning considered - its just one optional button that people can avoid if they want. -
06-22-2017, 11:08 PMAlisi
I really miss it during soloing. Why use the chicken nugget at all? We have no skills to keep it alive, they aren't smart (eg, move out of telegraphed attacks or turn the thing away, much less gain and hold aggro), their attacks are weak, and our healing choco-warriors ignore them. Why have a tanking pet if you take away what makes them tanky? Honestly. What's the point of Titan-egi? He dies in two hits and, if you happen to SC him alive again, he basically does nothing to get aggro back. You're just kiting the mob around.
I love to play pet classes but I've got to be honest, FFXIV has pretty much the worst pet class I've ever played. -
06-22-2017, 11:30 PMXiozen**This. Got SMN to 70 yesterday; but I'm more of a solo/casual player and thoroughly enjoyed using my SMN overworld against tough mobs, knowing my SUSTAIN would keep titan alive and kicking (other players like during FATES who can't solo would rely on my Titan-egi to keep hate (esp if no player tanks joined in the FATE) so they could freely participate) and keep me from being killed in a few unfortunate hits. Please add SUSTAIN BACK to the game exclusive to pet jobs... removing what you called an "under used" ability like SUSTAIN actually hurt ALOT!Quote:
Originally Posted by Espionis
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06-22-2017, 11:30 PMXenabelleSThe whole point of a pet class is exactly that you don't have the mob in your face. And that way of fighting can not be called "ranged" although I do recognize that that is how it does work for BLM.Quote:
Originally Posted by PotatoTree
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06-23-2017, 01:52 AMLen
Just slap on a passive healing buff for Fairies and Egi's that when their health falls below a certain percent, a sustain/regen effect kicks in.
(And allow it to proc Further Ruin for SMN. :rolleyes:) -
06-23-2017, 02:31 AMVallhallix
Ifrit suffers the most from no sustain.
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06-27-2017, 04:00 AMLordPhantomhivesome nice aoe spam in Susano ex was killing garuda for me yesterday, then I had to resummon her while trying to cross line to dodge the lightning aoe again. I mean sure there were some party wide mistakes that caused more aoe on her, but it >can< happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
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06-27-2017, 04:13 AMKurando
Also, is it just me or do the pets in SB now barely have any or no HP regeneration at all during battle? It's such a hassle to reposition the pet all the time because of it getting hit and doesn't get healed much by the group healer. If Sustain is not returned then definitely they need to fix Physick so that it goes off of Int for SMNs instead. Makes no sense for RDM to have effective healing when they have no pet to heal at all (aside from the general RDM lore).
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06-27-2017, 09:31 AMAsahinaMyLove
Sustain or ALL pets gets healed by Physick 10 times higher!! >_> Tiny 600 Heals dont do anything if max HP on pets is 15-30k!
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06-27-2017, 04:34 PMNeophyteThis.Quote:
Originally Posted by PotatoTree
The thing I'm wondering the most: Since 3.0 Titan egi never had a chance to keep hate against the Summoner itself. Who "lost" emnity to his pet was just a terrible summoner.
Now? Even more so, especially if they send their pet away to summon bahamut. Because then your tank is gone. *poof*
Haha, Titan tanking and because they want him to tank they don't call bahamut? Lol, scrubs.
And even with pets dying SMN ist still the most viable class for soloing content above your level. Yes SMN is not the best times thousand anymore, but still the best.
Also, did people look at the chocobo's new power? Because that is the way to go if you want a tank or healer when soloing (a chocobo cure now crits for 10k+). -
06-27-2017, 07:32 PMLeptorhynchoides
To be honest, I quite understand why SMN should not have it. Especially if you have your Titan in the open world, being capable of tanking elite marks, or in dungeons where he could tank some bosses even without a healer in the party, as it used to be in HW.
SMN is a dps role, we should not be a capable Tank, Healer and DPS simultaneously against enemies that other dps jobs would not even dream about soloing. The Titan can already endure for a long time in fights against some stronger enemies, but he should not be the unkillable tank with his health always at 100%, he needs to eventually die in these situations. -
06-28-2017, 12:43 AMAlisiTitan is not a tank. I just finished an instance with him and he couldn't hold aggro against one of the random nameless NPCs attacking the same mob. He's a tank. He's supposed to be a freaking tank. What do tanks do? They generate and maintain emnity. We do a lot of damage and a tanking pet should have the skills and abilities to deal with that. Nearly every other MMO with a pet class (that has a tanking pet) has such skills to keep the emnity on the tanking pet. WoW, for example, has two specific attacks the pet uses to gain aggro as well as two or three other skills to allow the player to shift emnity onto the pet. FFXIV doesn't. I shouldn't have to hold back because Titan can't hold emnity against a freakin' random NPC that's doing shit-all damage. There is literally NO reason to use this pet. It's just "lulz! Do much less dmg if you want Titan-egi to tank for you!" design. And the cherry is that they take sustain away so now we don't really even have the option to do less damage because he's a paper tissue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neophyte
Which would be awesome if they healed the egi's but they don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neophyte
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06-28-2017, 01:05 AMNeophyteBut they heal you making you able to beat any fight intended to be beaten by a single dps job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alisi
MNK has Fists of Earth given them damage reduction (making them tankier) and Bloodbath/2nd Wind, why aren't they allowed to complain that they can't solo any hunt or fate? SMNs have to get of their high horse, esp. since they are one of the strongest dps classes anyway.
You want to be able to also tank almost any boss and faze or hunt and be able to sustain your tank. K, if you accept a 50% loss in damage in exchange to keep things fair and bring you in line with healers and tanks dps.
As said, i don't get that anyway. Titan is useless since 2015. -
06-28-2017, 05:03 AMRongwayWhat I meant by asking my question was more like...Quote:
Originally Posted by LordPhantomhive
Assume the SMN places the pet competently.
Assume the party is mechanicsing.
Assume the healers are using AoE heals at an appropriate frequency.
Given these three assumptions, does the pet survive?
If everyone's doing everything right, and the pet dies, then there's a problem. When placed properly, we should be able to maintain an expectation of pet survival just from AoE healing, because healers don't see egis on the party list, and shouldn't be expected to devote single-target heals to them.
Were a situation to be found in a dungeon where the party could do everything right, and the pet would still die, then pet adjustments should receive some elevated priority.
EX primals, though. They are about being intimately familiar with the fight. In the same way that a BLM needs to know the mechanics well enough to know how to fit a rotation into the movement demands of the fight, a SMN should know the mechanics well enough to know where and when to place a pet, and in both cases the party as a whole need to mechanics appropriately so as not to throw a wrench in anybody's plans.
So, revision to earlier question,
Assuming the pet is placed well, the party is handling mechanics properly, and the healers are using their AoE tools, what dungeons do so much damage that pets are dying? -
06-28-2017, 08:19 AMAlisiMNKs would certainly have a right to complain if those two defense CDs only worked 10% of the time. SMNs don't have any defensive CDs because of Titan-Egi and we wear lesser armor. That's how you keep things fair. Our egi's are a functional part of the class. Our DPS is balanced around them. To say that SMNs need to "get off their high horse" because one of their egi's is broken is ludicrous. Oh yes, listen to those whiners. They want the core function of their job to work. Silly SMNs. It's like SMNs think they're a pet class or something...Quote:
Originally Posted by Neophyte
And in what universe did Titan suddenly start being a DPS king? Do you see anyone ever using Titan in dungeons or raids? Do they contribute to the rocking SMN DPS? (Because, surely, if a shitty nameless NPC DPS can steal emnity from Titan-egi then tanks would have no problem with them.) -
06-28-2017, 09:29 AMKumori_Kumo
Yeah uh, there's no reason for me to lose my Titan egi to a simple three-mob fight my Summoner overgears and overlevels. That's just... no.
Also I can maybe see why they don't want Physick to scale off Int (edging into Healer territory) but the healing superstar of DPS that is Red Mage blows that argument completely out of the water. So, yeah. Gimme at least 50% of what my Scholar is capable of on a Physick or why should I even have it at all? What are these, heals for ants? -
06-28-2017, 02:58 PMFannahThe difference here is that it's part of the Red Mage design, while you only have Physick because they just don't remove it from you while you start as an Arcanist (and I guess they still want people who want to level Arcanist for Scholar to still have early access to a healing spell, but I agree it's kind of a waste for a skill spot, then). You are a unique case in this game, the only class having 2 jobs after (and with different roles). This is why they can just design "well it won't be part of the SMN design as we just want it to be for the Scholar". I guess Physick is still useful for the Palace of the Dead when someone has the mimic debuff or when the heals are block and there is no healer in the party. And also in very early game of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kumori_Kumo
When I watch this video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_oLCPHqKR8
I guess we actually can see Titan-egi being made to tank monsters no one hit (but healers still generate enmity). Here they are killing adds at start while Titan-egi tanks the main boss. And he seems to create enough enmity to don't have its enmity overtaken by the healers. And as the Titan-egi will be kinda on the side, healers shouldn't have any problem to check his life as he won't have his life bar overlapping with the players ones.
So while others are beating adds, Titan is generating more and more enmity, building enough of it to give tanks time to build aggro while dps classes can already start switching target and hit the boss (and better Titan than the others as I guess he is overall more resistant). Mage and healer jobs now all have access to Lucid dreaming halving their current enmity (and Diversion for the mages, the skill reducing by 20% the enmity they will generate for 15sec), so they never should be high in enmity anyway except to show off (or to compare to others to know if they do well when learning the class).
I am wondering how Shirk works for the tanks (if it's a gift of 25% of all enmity he generated on all the still alive enemies to an ally). But if it's the case, he can then use Shirk on the Titan-egi a bit before killing the adds he is tanking to give him plenty of enmity to give him even more time. And when the Titan-egi dies or lose enmity, you can use Swiftcast to summon the dps summon you want and need for the rest of the battle.
So yes, I believe you need more gameplay from the others, and as I like the advertisement for FFXIV called "Memories" where we see friends playing together to succeed together (here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI06jFY6CLc) , and seeing how WAR and SMN are way less good at solo everything, I guess they want everyone to stop being that good in solo and to count more on the others to get synergy.
Edit : When thinking about it, they could make a trait which would actually change Physick as many other skills are changed by traits. They could make it like a Physick healing as little HP (to don't change this part) but providing to a summoned ally only a healing buff of 20% for exemple (so they still need help from the healer but would survive better). I don't say it's the right idea, but I just mean they could make a trait to change Physick to fit better the Summoner side without changing it into a healer. They could also make it a skill providing a different effect according to the summon we are targeting. -
06-28-2017, 06:31 PMAlisiEgi's are integral parts of what a summoner is. It's in the name, even. And you can't actually queue as a healer until you're a sch. Oh, you'll go back and be an arcanist before then if you land in a lower level group, but you can't actually queue to heal so the argument is kind of weak. Also, that video is over 3 years old. It's not current content or build. It was done either right before or right after HW was released, when people were way over geared for the content and when there was sustain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fannah
The issue at hand is completely different now. Titan-Egi as it is today could neither keep aggro, gain aggro, maintain aggro, or stay alive if it managed to somehow get it. And people finding these old videos and using them as proofs of how the egi is doing without having any experience is a big problem too. They see it at a time when Titan had sustain and dedicated healers, as well as an actual tank with over geared people, and they think 'welp, SMNs are tots OP.'
What SE needs to do is shit or get off the pot. Either they decide to give us functioning tanks or take it away and they give us defensive CDs. We have none because of Titan-egi but Titan-egi doesn't work. It's not hard to balance. Other games do it with ease. WoW, for example; you can't take a tank pet into a dungeon or raid not only because of the lesser damage but because that pet is an actual TANK. It has tanking abilities. Not to the level of player tanks but it has taunts and such. It will rip aggro from a tank immediately. There's none of this 'ramping up emnity' BS. The classes themselves have defensive CDs. Not as much as the melee DPS but they're there. So how does WoW keep the pet classes from being OP? They give the CDs very long cooldowns (5 minutes) and you can't do damage while under the effects. You are given emnity controls to deal with emnity issues. Not a blanket 'lower emnity' but rather one that either dumps all emnity at once or one where you can shift emnity onto someone or something else (ideally, either the actual tank or your pet.) You are given heals but they all have CDs too. If you're a Warlock, you heal your pets by giving them you HP and it's channeled.
The pet classes in WoW aren't overpowered by a long shot. Indeed, for the past year, the spec of hunter that sacrifices the pet for a damage buff does better in raids and dungeons. You can work with the pet. You are given tools to deal with things. God forbid SE makes their pets be anything more than set-it and forget-it DPS generators. -
06-29-2017, 03:32 AMClaviusnexThey could replace Physick with Sustain when you decide to take the Summoner path.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fannah
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06-29-2017, 04:06 AMTR_RAI only used SMN in solo situations. I hate it in groups, but great for hard FATEs or msq duties.Quote:
Originally Posted by PotatoTree
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06-29-2017, 04:12 AMTR_RAFully Agree!
I came here just to make the same post, glad to see it was already here, meaning I'm not the only one severely perturbed that it's gone. I do not understand SE's logic at all in making a job that uses pets but removes the ability to keep them alive - both on SMN and SCH side. It isn't that big an issue on SCH since you have the MND to heal normally, but for SMN it's even more of a deathcall to the job itself. I was never a fan of SMN except for MSQ and difficult FATEs, but without a way to heal the pet, the job is a total /fail.
As someone else said, why not add a regen effect to physik on pets? or make it so for a SMN, it's based off INT rather than MND. It's very clear that you guys didn't think about this removed ability at all and how it would affect the job - and especially, those who use it as a MAIN :mad: -
06-29-2017, 05:41 AMRyuko
When I heard we were losing Sustain, I spent my last week or two working on getting the Pal-Less Palace II achievement (solo to floor 100+)... I had a feeling it would be muuuuch harder to solo without Sustain. And it is. (I still don't know what that Sustain potion does... if it is for you or your pet... or if it's just a HoT they are giving everyone... haven't been back in Palace since Stormblood.) I will tell you this though -- without Sustain, soloing 100+ will be *really* hard... even if you do use a Steel on bosses. Perhaps not impossible, but definitely harder than it was.
But... the thing that bothers me the most? The way the lack of Sustain makes Aetherpact/Devotion more difficult to position.
I'm kind of *loving* the addition of Aetherpact/Devotion. I love being able to pick and choose who I'm going to buff. But, my pet makes this decision based on their distance from the person I want to give the buff to. If I want to give it to a tank, I have to kind of position it outside of cleaving range (but still closer than the other people -- including melee who much be going from the back to the flank on a frequent basis). I'd typically choose the flank. If I want to give it to a ranged, that's easy enough, but if I want to give it to anyone close enough to the boss to have to dodge AoEs... my pet is likely to get hit too. And then I have no way to heal it. Also, if people stand near my pet because they WANT the buff, they also might drop their AoEs on my pet. And I am powerless to help my pet. If I wanted it to avoid AoEs, I'd keep it away from eeeeeverything. But, that's really not an option if I want to poinpoint who is getting this buff. I guess in a raid setting, it could be coordinated with your party better (who stands where for the buff), but it's frustrating in a normal setting.
Physick is so, so, so weak... and the other thing to remember is that it has gotten comparatively *weaker* since SMN was introduced in ARR. Initially, Physick wasn't that bad because the gap between MND and INT was not as wide. In fact, spam-healing your tank with Physick after throwing the healer a Swiftcast+Res was a viable way to save your team. But... with every expansion, this gap gets wider and wider, and Physick remains the same strength... so Physick is nearly useless for SMN and there's really no point in spamming it unless you are reaaaaally desperate. So instead, I have to sit there hoping my healer is going to give my pet a little extra love once in a while. I hate watching my pet die. I used to always watch my pet to throw out a Sustain. And, even with Sustain, there were some fights I really had to pay attention to positioning for (like Shiva when it was current content... you had to constantly be moving your pet around to avoid the bow attack). I never complained about that, but now it would be impossible to keep pets alive during certain fights no matter what you do... it's frustrating. I've yet to do endgame stuff (slowly working my way to 70), but I can imagine this frustrating me a lot in a raid setting where AoEs deal a *lot* of damage and the healer has more important things to do than single target heal my pet. -
06-29-2017, 09:38 AMEaMett
I came to the forums just for this one thread. My pet keeps dying in dungeons. Either because healers aren't aoe healing or because boss aoes are giving too much damage.. Honestly I don't know which and it's besides the point anyways because the point is: I can't do anything about it. What kind of a shitty Arcanist do I need to be to be able to give my pet life force to exist but not to heal?
I've even tried micro managing my pet out of aoes and the delay in the pets response is just outright horrendous.
Also titan-egi has essentially lost it's meaning for soloing.
So please return sustain, or at least place pets as party members so the healers can see their hp. That wouldn't solve titan-egi soloing but it's a good start. -
07-31-2017, 04:33 PMSteel_ArrowPalace of the Dead. The removal of sustain means summoner is no longer one of the viable solo classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
I'd know - I wrote the book on it.
The tank pet couldn't even hold up against the level 60 quest mob. It's most decidedly an overnerf. They've screwed the pooch in multiple ways.
It was so pivotal that the class is no longer capable of doing content of which it previously was capable.
Your decision to never do anything but sit in the dungeon finder queue does not diminish its importance to other play styles. -
08-01-2017, 01:49 AMAriomiYou're wrong in every regard. First and foremost, Summoner is the weakest dps class right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neophyte
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=42 You can notice how they are lower then Machinist and Bard that are support dps. 200 Dps lower then red mage with less utility then red mage, and 400 dps lower then black mage. This is the case for summoner is every fight.
Titan isn't this gamebreakinig pet as you make him out to be. Monks with fists of earth, Bloodbath and Second Wind are far more tankier then titan is, and Red Mage says hello as a class that can tank, dps and heal. Tell me, did you ever notice how most classes can reduce damage or heal themselves significantly? Monk as you mention as Fists of the earth, Ninja have shade shift, samurai have third eye, black mage has mana wall and the list goes on. Summoner has 0 ways to mitigate damage, and no noticeable self healing. Titan as you mentioned, disappears when you summon Bahamut, meaning that if you want Titan to tank, you have to give up on you strongest dps moves anyways, otherwise he vanishes when you summon bahamut, and you will be tanking instead. My Red Mage can solo level 60 dungeons, every time I get 60 dungeon in wondrous tails I enter a different 60 dungeon to see if I can beat it. (beaten all of them so far.) -
08-01-2017, 02:01 AMSandparkWhile agree with, they kind of screwed the pooch for all jobs by stripping consistent self heals from a majority of jobs unless they are planning on making classes better at solo like originally planned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel_Arrow
I doubt many jobs could solo very high into PoTD now. -
08-01-2017, 04:13 AMSteel_ArrowYes, and POTD was released with a solo leaderboard because it was a significant aspect of the content, and responsible for much of its allure. One only has to look at it to see how important an aspect it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpark
Summoner does not have any new leaderboard entries since the expansion dropped. RDM, however, is demolishing their old pre-nerf records by 200,000 points.
When a new expansion is released, generally the ability to do old content increases.
Instead, we all just paid to have our classes gimped to make way for the new order. RDM master race: exception to the meta.
We were supposed to get revamped "cross-class" abilities, but that isn't even what they are anymore. You're role locked and given 10 options, of which one or two are actually choices.