Broil

Obligatory thread for this skill. It's completely broken, it's worse than Repose ever was. The biggest problem right now is that other healers cannot do anything remotely similar to a 1k mana drain, and it is completely spammable during quieter moments.

For example, when boxes are up, or if your team scores you a kill, you basically have free rein to spam it on the enemy healer, or even tank. It only takes 20 seconds of this to drain anyone from full MP to 0, which is overkill. Even getting 2-3 casts off during a prolonged fight gives you a huge edge over other healers. If you are using it on a tank you are trading 1 GCD to take away what they gain in potentially 3 GCD (PLD).

Solutions:

1. Change the MP drain to a completely different effect.
2. Reduce MP drain to 250 instead of 1000. Yes, I know it costs 500 to cast and it wouldn't be used much, but that is the same state that AST and WHM damage skill is in.
3. Give other healers access to the same thing

I have to agree that Broil is broken (can anyone argue otherwise, really?), but I can't agree with it draining more MP than it costs to cast, that would make the skill completely pointless. My main problem with it is that unlike WHM's and AST's nukes, Broil has no real counter except "don't even be in a SCH's line of sight". Slow and Heavy are both subject to immunity after a hit, and can be negated by abilities like Concentrate. Broil needs a similar counter (maybe an immunity to MP drain after a hit to be in line with other enfeeblements?), or reduce the MP drained to 500, but in this case the casting cost would need to be tuned down to 250.

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Originally Posted by Volene

I have to agree that Broil is broken (can anyone argue otherwise, really?), but I can't agree with it draining more MP than it costs to cast, that would make the skill completely pointless.

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Just the fact that people are seeing the MP drain as its primary purpose is the reason it needs a nerf. It's a nuke, and a healer one at that, it shouldn't be the most potent skill in its class. Right now it is beyond that, since they're literally the only class with an MP drain (thankfully). I can guarantee you that in a real game you will see almost no AST or WHM even bother casting their DD because it is not even worth it since, again, it's a nuke on a healer. The secondary effect isn't good enough to warrant a cast alone, so why should that be any different for SCH?

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Originally Posted by Koltik

I can guarantee you that in a real game you will see almost no AST or WHM even bother casting their DD because it is not even worth it since, again, it's a nuke on a healer. The secondary effect isn't good enough to warrant a cast alone, so why should that be any different for SCH?

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Perhaps this is where I disagree. I've played games as other healers and abused my nukes in some other situations as well. The most common is when one (or both!) of their DPS die and there's almost no pressure at all, or when their healer dies and the enemy is retreating, again applying no pressure. Especially on WHM, the heavy helps secure kills very often on a retreating DPS with no healer. It may be a weak healer nuke, but when even the healer is applying pressure, it makes it so their healer can't and puts your team at an advantage (where your team as a whole is applying more pressure than theirs, some sort of momentum, if you want). I find it's easier to create opportunities for it on WHM because of the regens. With Eos changed to heal only when you heal, WHM is the only healer who can keep healing passively while dishing out damage.

Even in 3.X, with damage skills having practically no damage, they were still used, most notably Stone I for the heavy (and Repose, though that's a different reason so I won't touch on that). Like in 4.X from what I've seen so far, it was mostly when someone on their team died so you could Heavy the fleeing enemies while no pressure was happening. Now, you get the same effect, but it also deals decent damage on top of that. I don't see why it would be used any less.

Another suggestion from Discord is to change it to be a healing debuff, like DRK has.

Reem had a great suggestion last night in the Tryhard Discord. Remove the MP drain effect entirely, it will be broken no matter what as long as MP is scarce and only one class has access to MP reduction. Instead, give Broil either a Blind effect, or an Infirmity/healing received down debuff. I think either would be perfect. By being a status effect, both of those would be subject to immunity and it would be a lot more in line with what WHM and AST have. Plus, it would be appropriate because those were already the tools Scholars used to have access to through Ruin II or Miasma. I would 100% get behind this, SE pls

Thinking about diminishing returns when used on the same target frequently. Like normal debuffs do -> resist building after 3rd apply. Resist stays until the target is dead for this ability though. It would be like having antibodies after you used virus, before stormblood happened. But I expect them to roll a dice and add something weird.

LET US SCH HAVE OUR MOMENT OF GLORY KOLTIK! WE HAVE SUFFERED FOR 4 SEASONS OF BEING INFERIOR TO WHM/AST


Side note - Delete Broil :spicyoil:

Or people could just learn to LoS the SCH if they aren't in the mood for being burned like everyone else had to do vs Disc Priests in WoW. I don't get it, people cried about how the changes would undermine the skill cap in PvP and here we are asking for something to be removed because we don't deal with it.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

Or people could just learn to LoS the SCH if they aren't in the mood for being burned like everyone else had to do vs Disc Priests in WoW. I don't get it, people cried about how the changes would undermine the skill cap in PvP and here we are asking for something to be removed because we don't deal with it.

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"learn to LOS"

aka: let your DPS die behind a wall since you're busy hiding from the enemy scholar the entire match.

aka: when you are forced to spam heal out in the open while someone is being burst down and the enemy healer can get a few casts off on you regardless.

aka: when you are stunned every 10s and healer can get a cast off on you.

aka: when you have to play hide and seek with enemy healer while they have nothing to fear from you.

Shall I go on?

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Originally Posted by Koltik

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Partially trolling yes, but mostly because I just tire of you asking for things to be deleted when you can't cope with them. PS I rarely ever got hit with repose, I never complained about it even though I could see why it was considered a nuisance. So because our playerbase has a relatively low skillset the game should be dumbed down further, that's the impression you give me. Aside from me trolling you make some excellent suggestions usually and give constructive feedback, but recently you have been on a downhill spiral of "I hate everything that hurts me"

I think there are other abilities that are more broken then broil atm, *cough* foul.

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Originally Posted by Kai_Lee

I think there are other abilities that are more broken then broil atm, *cough* foul.

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This thread is about broil, but feel free to make other posts. We need to give more feedback in general.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

Partially trolling yes, but mostly because I just tire of you asking for things to be deleted when you can't cope with them. PS I rarely ever got hit with repose, I never complained about it even though I could see why it was considered a nuisance. So because our playerbase has a relatively low skillset the game should be dumbed down further, that's the impression you give me. Aside from me trolling you make some excellent suggestions usually and give constructive feedback, but recently you have been on a downhill spiral of "I hate everything that hurts me"

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Can't cope with them? I'm not even healing this season. The only thing I care about is balanced PvP. Broil isn't balanced, simple. If MP drain stays in, everyone who wants to heal competitively will be required to play SCH.

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Originally Posted by Koltik

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We had pretty much one Scholar in the top 100 that actively queued on Chaos (Dacien); thus implying in order to be competitive last season you were almost universally better off playing ast or WHM. Anyone who wanted to tank competitively last season was more or less required to not play DRK. I don't have a doubt in my mind Broil is too strong on its' current state and there's no way it'll last to the start of s5, but to gut it means to also gut Scholar's first chance at actually standing out as a solid pick. Blind is weak, we had Ruin II in S4 and it rarely made an ounce of difference compared to the CC of AST/WHM, I'm not totally opposed to 2, but it'd be counter productive to use it unless you're seriously ahead and if this is the case, you'd probably get more ahead by just not using it. Give other healers access to it? No, give them something as good as it whilst still offering something unique. Give AST a disgusting healing debuff cast, give WHM an ability to temporarily ignore line of sight or cast whilst moving/channeled heal whilst moving or something - give them something to put them in a level playing field instead of just suggesting "dump it".

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

Blind is weak,

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Ok.... Blind was probably the most broken status effect outside of sleep and stun. Ask any top tier melee dps and they will 100% tell you that blind is not weak. One of the reasons I think rum raisin and taru were able to do so well on sch is their optimized blind usage to stop bursts.

To not sidebar this discussion, Repose was easier to play around because healers had way more tools to keep people alive, while running around. And you could easily track your 8s of sleep DR cycles. If we see a game with 8 good players, healers rarely will be able to do anything outside of heal, having said that, if the sch team does get a kill the game will snowball into a broil fest, where you just keep the healer at 0 mp and continue to farm the team. With bad players you can just spam broil every other gcd, no dr, no punishment. It's pretty broken. Broil right now is essentially mana drain from wotlk, completely absurd.

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Originally Posted by TiramisuMacaron

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Ah yes, two successful players - remind me how many data centers in this game again? It obviously wasn't strong enough to be competitive. Also didn't Taru get dqed in S4 (slightly off-topic). Maybe "weak" was a bit of an undercredit, but it definitely wasn't broken lol.

Drain Mana could channel out of LoS (and was a channelled cast in general), Broil is broken but it isn't that broken lol. I recognise your point of SCH teams snowballing out of control, likewise, removing broil isn't the answer, allowing other healers to have a response to it is. The alternative is a longer cast time - but removing it sets a bad precedent, it'd be nice to finally have more aggressive healers. That last part is a personal opinion though and likely comes from being an ex multiglad Disc Priest that would have never got that far if RMP wasn't the most fun comps for an aggressive healer in the history of that game.

They could give Broil the Virus treatment and apply 'Grants target immunity to the same effect for X seconds after mana drained'.

If it means anything I think SCH are plenty strong even if they didn't have MP Drain and had something else on broil to be more balanced with the other healers~ SCH getting some other effect on Broil is not going to make them unwanted, their skills are still strong! Based on the games I played Broil is definitely plenty strong, and it is harder than it seems to LoS it! I had one game where the enemy SCH practically Broiled me the whole game despite my best attempts to dash around walls, I can't run around walls forever when I have to stand still and hard cast in sight of my dps ;w;

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

Or people could just learn to LoS the SCH if they aren't in the mood for being burned like everyone else had to do vs Disc Priests in WoW.

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That's a fairly weak argument. The thing is that "stay out of LoS" applies to EVERYTHING, not just Broil but also AST and WHM nukes - but on top of that, those are also subject to immunity and Concentrate/Purify while Broil isn't, and its effect is already ridiculously better in the first place. I'm sorry, but if "stay out of LoS" was valid advice, WHM Repose would have never been meta in past seasons, and ranged DPS and especially BLM would deal next to no damage over entire games because "just stay out of LoS lol", but we all know that's not how it works, that's just not a valid strategy to maintain over an 8-minute game where you have to heal your team. Sure, it helps against Broil, but Broil needs a counterplay that's not generic nothingness that applies to every ranged ability ever. Make it subject to DR, decrease the amount of MP drained or change its effect entirely to another enfeeblement to make it more in line with the other healer nukes.

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Originally Posted by Koltik

"learn to LOS"

aka: let your DPS die behind a wall since you're busy hiding from the enemy scholar the entire match.

aka: when you are forced to spam heal out in the open while someone is being burst down and the enemy healer can get a few casts off on you regardless.

aka: when you are stunned every 10s and healer can get a cast off on you.

aka: when you have to play hide and seek with enemy healer while they have nothing to fear from you.

Shall I go on?

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Sounds like a dynamic fight which is what pvp should be all about or itleast I thought.

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Originally Posted by Kai_Lee

I think there are other abilities that are more broken then broil atm, *cough* foul.

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Okay, let's not go there. Blms still have longer cast times than most other dps. Foul is our trump card because we can't group sleep and our lb is laughable.

The feast for healers has always been a contest of mana management, if you have a healer that can drain mana, that just makes it a one-sided contest

Broil is a joke, the only really way to counter it is pressure the healer enough for him to not use it, LOS him really doesnt help because in solo your team dont care about positioning and you end up chasing them or being exposed to it. If they dont nerf it i can probably see top10 being all scholar players

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

Ah yes, two successful players - remind me how many data centers in this game again? It obviously wasn't strong enough to be competitive. Also didn't Taru get dqed in S4 (slightly off-topic). Maybe "weak" was a bit of an undercredit, but it definitely wasn't broken lol.

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You're so clueless it's actually hilarious.
Also hello Aoife.

Yeap this thing needs to be nerfed hardcore.

Lets put this into perspective for a second.
Lets say me(DPS) and my team applies way more pressure than the opposing team. This in turn allows my Scholar to freely play the game.
Now lets say you (WHM/ASTRO) are already struggling as it is to keep your team alive and thus are running low on mana.
My scholar decides to spam Broil on you, as much as possible.

Technically as a DPS, I personally dont NEED to even kill the healer cause that would in turn reset your entire mana pool.
I can continuously kill your tank/DPS knowing you can barely squeeze out heals back to back. This allows me to snowball throughout the whole game.
While LOS is a very valid strategy to deal with Scholar. There are not enough mana regaining solutions to deal with the constant pressure of Broil and it makes a very unenjoyable experience for the losing team.

Broil is just not a fun concept

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

We had pretty much one Scholar in the top 100 that actively queued on Chaos (Dacien)

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Kei, Zegram, Yicheng, Taru..

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

Ah yes, two successful players - remind me how many data centers in this game again? It obviously wasn't strong enough to be competitive. Also didn't Taru get dqed in S4 (slightly off-topic).

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Transferring != Disqualified

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

Or people could just learn to LoS the SCH if they aren't in the mood for being burned like everyone else had to do vs Disc Priests in WoW. I don't get it, people cried about how the changes would undermine the skill cap in PvP and here we are asking for something to be removed because we don't deal with it.

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Line of Sight? You of all people shouldn't be talking about SCH or PvP in general, you couldn't play SMN properly nor SCH (remember that? single handedly killing the feast queue for 2 days because no one wanted you as healer)

Please stop posting in the PvP forums if you have zero idea what you are talking about.

in wow it was also possible run behind wall middle of the cast, but in this game you still can land skills behind wall that is really stupid imo. Repose worked same way. If you tried loss repose, you may get into sleep behind wall. That is one reason why this game pvp feels sometimes extremely clunky.

Friendly bump. Also, PSA: Broil is essentially a 6k potency nuke, on a healer, with no CD, and extremely low mana cost.

How is it a 6k nuke? It eats 1k mana, plus does 1k damage. A 5k potency heal costs 1k mana to cast, and by losing that mana you are losing that cast and that 5k heal potential.

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Originally Posted by Koltik

Friendly bump. Also, PSA: Broil is essentially a 6k potency nuke, on a healer, with no CD, and extremely low mana cost.

How is it a 6k nuke? It eats 1k mana, plus does 1k damage. A 5k potency heal costs 1k mana to cast, and by losing that mana you are losing that cast and that 5k heal potential.

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Essentially it follows WH in being a one-way ticket to snowballing completely out of control. Since I've decided that 10 day ban taught me to stop being an idiot, I would at this point wish to comment this is not a path I'd like to see 4s go down in terms of playstyle. I like they tried to do something unique and allow a healer to play more aggressively, but as the meta stands it'd be too strong. I could be wrong and it turns out that they won't get to cast it much, but as I imagine you might have found a few 4s games by now (I haven't even tried) you'd probably be the better position to comment on the competitive state of it.

broil is too much, when others healers don't have a option like this, when an enemy die, sch get less pressure and is able to nuke the healer too easily. Nobody else have this. others job have CC , and CC have resistance but broil is spammable endlessely.

i am not a pro sch but i still understand this fact.

I like how they made healers able to contribute to dps but made scholar's version way more potent with NO DIMINISHING RETURN like the other two healers as the above poster said.

Broil can also counter DRK nicely as it uses MP a lot, all his troll skills uses MP so steal that MP and he becomes pretty weak sauce.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Broil can also counter DRK nicely as it uses MP a lot, all his troll skills uses MP so steal that MP and he becomes pretty weak sauce.

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it is quite true, drk relies on MP to pull and shield people, with low mp the drk efficiency is drastically reduced.
but i saw scholars using broil asap on drk or healer and their team melted, should use broil only when safe moment.

i am still thinking whm is topping the current healers tier, if only sch didnt have broil, whm would be perfect, but this is how se works, if a job isnt really cool for people they ultra buff it (pld pve, sch pvp) then if it is too "strong" they ultranerf if (war, mch)

I think we should consider all the job's toolset, broil is very strong, ub in my opinion I would never trade my WHM Regene for the SCH's retarded fairy.
Actually I can't really figure if there's a top tier healer because I'm probably using badly the SCH, instead I feel stronger with WHM.

But I can agree that Broil could need an adjustment, imho I would see the DR applied to it, as the other healers' toolkits.
I won't like to see it swapped to a Infirmery or even worse Blind debuff.