Change Hissatsu: Seigan plz

Officially now it does 200 potency for 15 kenki after getting hit with Third Eye up.

This poses some problems.

1. 200pot/15k = 13.333pot per 1 kenki

vs

2. Hissatsu: Shinten: 300pot/25k = 12pot per 1 kenki

People who will want to max their dps will get purposely hit by mechanics in order to get this +11% more dmg per kenki done ability. Causing problems for Healers, and ofc groups in general as if a member dies; that weakness will hamper group dmg.

Proposed Solution:

Change Hissatsu: Seigan potency from 200 to 150 AND add "Additional Effect: Reduces Enmity by 1/2"

This change will give a 10potency per kenki..still good...but not something worth doing on purpose and the added threat reduction will help a SAM which is either overgeared or playing their job to the max vs a tank that may lose aggro due to gear disparity and/or poor aggro holding (which happens ALOT in roulettes...not here to put anyone down, it's just a fact of life when matched with total strangers of different skill levels)..Will also be good with leveling with something like a Chocobo tank that may not handle the power of a SAM blasting away. It also has the best syngery for these "Third Eye" abiltiies...if hit due to unavoidable AoE dmg..u heal yourself using the other ability..if due to target turning to you due to too much burst...it will sort that out.

Hope enough people support this to get this change done ASAP. Cheers.

how else do you expect to get a confession stack from a whm if you don't get hit by something?

I don't think it should do damage at all, for the same reason that all of the other utility abilities in the game got their potency removed.

The idea I had was for a short burst of movement speed, but enmity reduction is an equally good idea.


The only thing I absolutely don't want it to do is damage. Heal for x potency, reduce enmity by x%, move x% faster for y seconds, Take x% less damage for y seconds, reduce cooldown on the following third eye usage by x seconds.. whatever. Just not damage, and certainly not a dps increase over any other kenki spender.

I am willing to support removing the Potency if they also remove kenki cost as well...but right now I feel the thing they need the most is -enmity based on what SAM is supposed to be...their Mobility is amazing already with jump-backs and charges...They have a heal in the form of the other Third Eye ability...extending 3rd eye or giving a -%dmg taken like Monk's new ability Riddle of Earth is OK but it won't save you for too long or the raid if you turn boss to them and he cleaves let's say..also it may make SAM too strong giving them extended dmg reductions...SAM is meant to be this hard hitting low group utility class and so gaining enmity is probably its biggest threat to itself.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

how else do you expect to get a confession stack from a whm if you don't get hit by something?

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You know they'll just put a regen on you anyway...

Make Hissatsu: Seigan a 500 potency attack that offers a 35% damage up self buff and a -10% vulnerability down debuff on the target for 2 seconds.

Wait, no utility. Than make Seigan a +100 potency self buff!

It does not possess any problems for healers as long as you use it intelligently. That's like saying Blood for Blood causes issues, yet good usage of it has been fine for years now. As a DPS if you have your b4b on at a time that is inappropriate will result in death. It is the same. Risk and reward. Just because you can doesn't mean you should and all that.

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Originally Posted by Sentinillia

It does not possess any problems for healers as long as you use it intelligently. That's like saying Blood for Blood causes issues, yet good usage of it has been fine for years now. As a DPS if you have your b4b on at a time that is inappropriate will result in death. It is the same. Risk and reward. Just because you can doesn't mean you should and all that.

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Blood for blood causes you to take more damage IF you get hit. Using it appropriately will mean you don't get hit most of the time and take the extra damage.

Seigan REQUIRES you to get hit. You cannot do the extra damage without taking damage first.

The two are not alike.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Blood for blood causes you to take more damage IF you get hit. Using it appropriately will mean you don't get hit most of the time and take the extra damage.

Seigan REQUIRES you to get hit. You cannot do the extra damage without taking damage first.

The two are not alike.

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You say that like theres no such thing as unavoidable party damage.
Does Third Eye say "Take aggro from the boss and nearly die"? No, it does not. Getting hit doesn't have to mean getting beaten to within an inch of your life, it just means good SAMs will learn to predict that incoming party damage and activate Third Eye to take advantage of having taken damage.

You won't be taking "Extra" damage to trigger it, Its up to the SAM to learn the times when it CAN be triggered.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

You say that like theres no such thing as unavoidable party damage.
Does Third Eye say "Take aggro from the boss and nearly die"? No, it does not. Getting hit doesn't have to mean getting beaten to within an inch of your life, it just means good SAMs will learn to predict that incoming party damage and activate Third Eye to take advantage of having taken damage.

You won't be taking "Extra" damage to trigger it, Its up to the SAM to learn the times when it CAN be triggered.

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Good sams wont be taking unrequired damage to do extra damage, but bad sams can intentionally take extra damage to do extra damage. Third eye is on a 15 second cooldown. The highest damage a sam can do involves intentionally taking damage every 15 seconds.

I'm not speaking from nowhere here, this is a mechanic that has failed badly in many previous mmorpgs. If there is a way to do more damage by standing in the fire, a huge number of players do so intentionally.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Good sams wont be taking unrequired damage to do extra damage, but bad sams can intentionally take extra damage to do extra damage. Third eye is on a 15 second cooldown. The highest damage a sam can do involves intentionally taking damage every 15 seconds.

I'm not speaking from nowhere here, this is a mechanic that has failed badly in many previous mmorpgs. If there is a way to do more damage by standing in the fire, a huge number of players do so intentionally.

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So what you're suggesting is to change the functionality of the ability because bad people might do dumb things with it?

... OK.

Edit: I should point out that the ability is meant to be used while solo. A situation where you will frequently be receiving damage.
This is a case of an ability designed for solo play that just happens to have function in party play that skilled players can take advantage of.

Kick any player that do that, any other SAM will use the third eye to mitigate unavoidable damage and get rewarded by it.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

So what you're suggesting is to change the functionality of the ability because bad people might do dumb things with it?

... OK.

Edit: I should point out that the ability is meant to be used while solo. A situation where you will frequently be receiving damage.
This is a case of an ability designed for solo play that just happens to have function in party play that skilled players can take advantage of.

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No; my suggestion is to change the functionality because bad people will do dumb things with it _and think they are doing the right thing_.

Not really any point continuing to reply; experience and evidence already tells us what will happen. Wait and see.

Not just Seigan; The entire Third eye kit is trash. Its 5% damage reduction for just 3 seconds is practically worthless, and the follow up skills are not rewarding enough.

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Originally Posted by Rhinos

Not just Seigan; The entire Third eye kit is trash. Its 5% damage reduction for just 3 seconds is practically worthless, and the follow up skills are not rewarding enough.

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The self heals are nice when soloing but they aren't much. Third Eye used to be super good (20% reduction on the next hit, with Merciful Eyes having 500 cure potency) in the Media Tour build but it got mega nerfed.

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

The self heals are nice when soloing but they aren't much. Third Eye used to be super good (20% reduction on the next hit, with Merciful Eyes having 500 cure potency) in the Media Tour build but it got mega nerfed.

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You're correct. I found this nerf particularly disappointing because of just how puzzling it is. I'd much rather they had raised the cd on third eye and kept an effect that is actually impactful.

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Originally Posted by Furious

No; my suggestion is to change the functionality because bad people will do dumb things with it _and think they are doing the right thing_.

Not really any point continuing to reply; experience and evidence already tells us what will happen. Wait and see.

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a good sam don't take hit, he give them...
yes for the kenki usage seigan is very good, however, often in hard fight, you prefer use your self heal than seigan for...survive? (especially in fight like shin ryu)

The ability is only an issue if people are playing poorly and trying to cheese some damage with it. If used as intended, that is to know fights well enough to get the proc off unavoidable damage, it is perfectly fine. Arguing against it being a net-gain for DPS is like saying people are going to get themselves killed going for positionals on any other class. Bad players standing in bad things can be picked out right away.

im trying to figure out .... why the guy brought up good and bad samurais, while suggesting anyone would use the skill to begin with.. why would you burn a gcd on something that doesnt give you a combo? Why would you not actively use skills to maintain/refresh the amazing buffs we get from combos? and why would you not use that spare kenki on any of the other skills that are instant OR buffing your next iiajistu? someone teach me plz, i dont understand why

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Originally Posted by shingenpride

im trying to figure out .... why the guy brought up good and bad samurais, while suggesting anyone would use the skill to begin with.. why would you burn a gcd on something that doesnt give you a combo? Why would you not actively use skills to maintain/refresh the amazing buffs we get from combos? and why would you not use that spare kenki on any of the other skills that are instant OR buffing your next iiajistu? someone teach me plz, i dont understand why

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I've not gotten to level 66 yet, but seeing as it's an OGCD, I think the idea is that you are to know when an unblockable raid wide hit is coming out (For example, Alexander's Mega Holy), use Third Eye (also and OGCD) in anticipation, take the hit, then weave in Hissatsu: Seigan while keeping your combo up, and trust the healers to do their jobs and top you off. You're not taking any more damage then you would have been anyway, and you're dealing more damage in return. It's cheaper than Hissatsu: Shinten and Hissatsu: Kyuten and actually does more damage than the latter.

I mean that's just my guess anyway

Merciful eyes heals about 2-3k no crit at max ilv right now (314). In a really tight situation, that 5% mitigation from third eye helps, but I don't think Merciful eyes will help that much, with Samurai's burst, it's a lot better to just heal with bloodbath. And we don't have blood for blood as shared action anymore.

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

The self heals are nice when soloing but they aren't much. Third Eye used to be super good (20% reduction on the next hit, with Merciful Eyes having 500 cure potency) in the Media Tour build but it got mega nerfed.

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I'd love to have that back...

And the 500-potency Vercure.

But I guess they wanted to keep SAM/RDM dungeon queues dependent on tanks and healers...

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Originally Posted by Greyfrost

Merciful eyes heals about 2-3k no crit at max ilv right now (314). In a really tight situation, that 5% mitigation from third eye helps, but I don't think Merciful eyes will help that much, with Samurai's burst, it's a lot better to just heal with bloodbath. And we don't have blood for blood as shared action anymore.

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Even at current max ilvl it only heals 2-3k HP? It's pretty darn useless alright... Considering you have to get hit to proc the skill, I'm been wondering why the potency is only at 200 ever since I learn Merciful Eyes. Was hoping it gets better but oh well... I suppose it MIGHT do something as we get new gears down the road.