A question to the producer and dev’s.

Here is my question to the dev’s of SE; How does job balancing work according to you guys, what is the logic behind it?
I still fail to understand any of it. We showed our concerns with this before and we’ve been told to “calm down” and “it’s all subject to change”.

In HW you had 3 tanks where 1 was perfectly balanced (WAR) and one needed attention (PLD). DRK was designed to be in the middle somewhere and it was.

What is the logic behind breaking/ bringing down 2 of the tanks while significantly buffing the one tank that got left behind. How does this make them all equally balanced?
The way I see it, all you had to do is fix the flaws PLD had to make him compete with the other 2 and job balancing was done for tanks.

Now instead; PLD got a massive buff, DRK got destroyed to be boring, not fun/brain dead and possibly even useless depending on who you ask, and WAR got nerfed by having his unique tanking capabilities removed.

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/darkknight/

Taking from a post in GD about WHM, but with changes to fit in the tank discussion:
"This is WHY we had no new tank jobs for 4.0, they can't even balance the 3 current ones. Guess the game is PLD only now, woot?" - Adapted from Hamada's post in a WHM discussion.
This is the feeling I'm getting now.

Yeah let's give DRK 5 god damn aoes.
Oh and let's make Double weaving oGCDs a mandatory thing.
This is so fustrating it ain't even funny. Where's the skill that prevents DA from falling off after one use.
Why increase the potency of bloodspiller in grit when you could just ignore the damage penalty?

i'm not even mad at this point, just knowing that SE is making 1 job to be above other instead of balancing things out means in the next expansion other job will get their time to shine, since PLD already got 2.0 and 4.0 butt kiss means 5.0 will either be back to WAR or it's DRK turn

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Originally Posted by Mahono

1 was perfectly balanced (WAR)

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WAR. Perfectly balanced?

...

Wat?

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

WAR. Perfectly balanced?

...

Wat?

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He probably meant to say something along the lines of their toolkit working well and synergistic, instead of balanced as in similarly performing to other tanks.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

Yeah let's give DRK 5 god damn aoes.
Oh and let's make Double weaving oGCDs a mandatory thing.
This is so fustrating it ain't even funny. Where's the skill that prevents DA from falling off after one use.
Why increase the potency of bloodspiller in grit when you could just ignore the damage penalty?

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Grit reduces Damage dealt by 20%
Darkside increases Damage dealt by 20%

Meaning damage lost = 0%

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Originally Posted by DJMau

Grit reduces Damage dealt by 20%
Darkside increases Damage dealt by 20%

Meaning damage lost = 0%

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They're multiplicative, not additive afaik.

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Originally Posted by DJMau

Grit reduces Damage dealt by 20%
Darkside increases Damage dealt by 20%

Meaning damage lost = 0%

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Defiance reduces reduces Damage dealt by 20%
Storm's Eye increases Damage dealt by 20%

Meaning damage lost = 0%

What is your point?

It doesnt work that way when your baseline 100% damage assumes nogrit+ darkside on, so activating grit is a dps loss eitherway.
DRK's GCD potencies (as well as War's potencies) are naturally lower in order to adjust to that constant 20% buff, while PLD has swordoath + naturally higher potencies to compensate for no constant 20% damage up buff, ON TOP of getting a better berserk and a magical mild-berserk, making the whole field ultimately uneven beyond a joke dpswise.

When you says the top one is balance and then there is middle one and lower tier one... that is already wrong. Balance only happened when all three are equal. There is no way 1 can be balance when he is above the others lol...

I wonder if the tank combo in 4.xx will be PLD/WAR or dual PLD?

I guess either way I am not tanking any more.

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

WAR. Perfectly balanced?

...

Wat?

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If my memory serves me correct, they stated that in HW WAR was in the place they wanted and that they want to bring other tanks to WARs level rather than nerf warrior. That's pretty much interpreted as Square acknowledging that Warrior is perfectly balanced from their viewpoint.

concured.. putting aside they made drk mind numbingly boring (because what, their statistics/logs show than noone plays it right? surprise, the majority playing a job also dont care how it plays or even read tooltips?)

But what in the world ARE they doing balancing the jobs??
Any not completely math-illiterate can put a spreadsheet together in a few hours to CLEARLY demonstrate how far apart these jobs are now just taking the tooltips into account.

How the f*** can the devs not even manage that? Like are you serious right now SE?
How is it not blatantly obvious that giving PLD like five additional mitigation/utility skill over DRK AND have significantly more dps output, only having deminishing LB-generation as bandaid to not be completely detrimiental as DRK/WAR.

This is ridiculous, who is balancing these jobs, random people from the street?

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Originally Posted by Mahono

Here is my question to the dev’s of SE; How does job balancing work according to you guys, what is the logic behind it?
I still fail to understand any of it. We showed our concerns with this before and we’ve been told to “calm down” and “it’s all subject to change”.

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I think this is the most important point: the "why".

SE has adopted a more "hands off" approach to balance in the past. This was a more ambitious project. With 15 jobs, changes to large parts of the stat system, cross-class reworks, and completely new actions, there are just too many variables changing at once. It's only going to get progressively difficult with the addition of more jobs, and it's very easy for added jobs to get lost by the wayside once they fall out of the spotlight of their respective expansions.

I'm happy for the fact that they're being more hands-on with changes, but it requires a higher level of communication than we've had in the past. NA MMO developers tend to opt for smaller, more frequent changes, and generally are more upfront about what happens under the hood and why skill changes take place.

I understand that this is new ground for everyone, and that language is a potential barrier, but I'd really like to see more two-way communication take place, on a more regular basis. It's far easier to forgive missteps if you understand what caused them, and if you feel like you're involved in the process of fixing it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think this is the most important point: the "why".

SE has adopted a more "hands off" approach to balance in the past. This was a more ambitious project. With 15 jobs, changes to large parts of the stat system, cross-class reworks, and completely new actions, there are just too many variables changing at once. It's only going to get progressively difficult with the addition of more jobs, and it's very easy for added jobs to get lost by the wayside once they fall out of the spotlight of their respective expansions.

I'm happy for the fact that they're being more hands-on with changes, but it requires a higher level of communication than we've had in the past. NA MMO developers tend to opt for smaller, more frequent changes, and generally are more upfront about what happens under the hood and why skill changes take place.

I understand that this is new ground for everyone, and that language is a potential barrier, but I'd really like to see more two-way communication take place, on a more regular basis. It's far easier to forgive missteps if you understand what caused them, and if you feel like you're involved in the process of fixing it.

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And thats actually a big problem. Yes, a lot of players overreact and going apeshit in the Forums. But in the same Time the only thing we get is a "Calm down"

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Originally Posted by DerpyCubone

Defiance reduces reduces Damage dealt by 20%
Storm's Eye increases Damage dealt by 20%

Meaning damage lost = 0%


What is your point?

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Start with a value of 1

Multiply by .8

Your result is .8

Multiply by 1.2

Your result is not equal to 1 (it's .96)

Also, I don't think that was the whole point...

Balace you say?nha is garbage this thing,how ruin gamplay of WAR/DRK job to make the PLD one more appealing and wanted balance?Im going to play tank just to kill q time that will be lame but hand down who worked on this "balace" stuff is incompetent.
War lost utility/self healing/fun what got? 2 skill that have no use and will not go on hotbar at all and a 70 skill that broke unchain?niceeeeee
Drk is just braindead now, 1-2-3 here we go again
Pld?overbuffed broken just yo make people play it finally
Yes yes this is balance..

^ I think you mean divide by 1.25. 1/1.2*1.2 DOES equal one.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Start with a value of 1

Multiply by .8 or divide by 1.2

Your result is .8

Multiply by 1.2

Your result is not equal to 1 (it's .96)

Also, I don't think that was the whole point...

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Yea, I understand that. I was trying to ask what he was getting at in the first place.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

^ I think you mean divide by 1.25. 1/1.2*1.2 DOES equal one.

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Yes, but your facts are wrong. It has to do with how the game's coded. Tank stances aren't one divided by a number. They're one multiplied by a number. Because of this, you start at 1, go to .8, and then go to .96.

i don't get the point in them nerfing PLD fight or flight in the final build, it's not like it's going to stop people from transitioning into that job, if anything i think they should keep the pre release version since it is gonna be the most used tank job in 4.0 anyway

the amount of difference you analy pointed out .04 will do is statistically insignificant for all intents and purposes

Potency aside, WAR is just not fun anymore, feel very clunky, I've tried to 'get into it' tried to like it, on the surface it looks like nothing has change much but the fluidity of this job is gone. I wasn't planing to go samurai straight away but that job felt more akin to WAR 3.x , good bye WAR, we've had a good run but I guess all good things must have an end.

I wished the devs would leave WAR alone and just bring the other 2 tanks to make them fun like WAR 3.x

well, pld was not very fun to start with, but war and dark were doing good. Now they got ALL the jobs to pld fun level. From what I tested, it's not only a balancing issues, it's a fun issue. Pld had that clunky feeling, but you could think "ok, it's a tin can, eat the damages but not much of a blast", now they applyed that to everything you play. War/Drk got hit hard, DPS got hit hard, and they all give the same feeling of a pale reflection of what we had.

"2.X 3.X
Substantial revisions have been made to the battle system.

The fun has been taking off
Due to players enjoying some jobs more than others, we balanced them all so now they are all boring to play
We added new abilities to replace some of the old ones we took away, they are doing mostly the same thing, but worse"

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Originally Posted by MiniPrinny

Yes, but your facts are wrong. It has to do with how the game's coded. Tank stances aren't one divided by a number. They're one multiplied by a number. Because of this, you start at 1, go to .8, and then go to .96.

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ER...

I don't want to be petty or anything, but what I mean is 1/1.25 = 1*0.8. It's just a math error on your part. Say your base damage is 10. If you turn on your tank stance, you do 20% less damage that you used to so you lose 2 for a total of 8. If you turn OFF your tank stance, you're doing 25% more damage than you did before because you gain 2 back and 2 is 25% of 8.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

Why increase the potency of bloodspiller in grit when you could just ignore the damage penalty?

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IDK if anyone answered this, but the answer stems from how Dark Arts affects it.

This makes DA add the same amount of dmg to it, as it would to the other 2 GCDs, so you dont try to prioritize DA for bloodspiller instead.
(same with why soul eaters heal is so bad, to make sure u dont prioritize DA'ing souleater over the other 2. But technically its the better option, as it has the most benefit, even if its so minimal.)

I started in ARR with the Warrior and it was my favourite tank class, until now. I used to spam flash and overpower to hold a lot of enemies. It was really fun to me handling the mp and tp costs. But at the moment it seems to me warrior has the highest tp costs of all classes (why does he have 70tp for the damn first attack and high costs for overpower, which is his aoe pull), no use for mp and nearly no possibility to refill his tp. The new role skill has a 90 sec cooldown and a really short range, which makes it useless to me. At this point I think it´s really hard now to tank as a warrior. Paladin seems to be buffed so high. Less tp costs, use of mp, more aoe skills, more attack power on his skills. And like other people say, spamming fell cleave is just damn boring.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

IDK if anyone answered this, but the answer stems from how Dark Arts affects it.

This makes DA add the same amount of dmg to it, as it would to the other 2 GCDs, so you dont try to prioritize DA for bloodspiller instead.
(same with why soul eaters heal is so bad, to make sure u dont prioritize DA'ing souleater over the other 2. But technically its the better option, as it has the most benefit, even if its so minimal.)

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I thought it was confirmed SE is still 100%