How do you think these two will compare? If we assume the damage reduction part of tenacity is going to be in the same boat as parry, nice but not needed, then it comes down to the damage increase portion.
If it scales worse than det, then it will go the same way as parry, avoid it unless SE puts it on everything so we can't avoid it. If it scales better than det, then the same thing will happen to det.
I suppose that with the first situation at least it's not as bad as parry, even if it has no impact on how we choose our gear.
Determination vs. tenacity
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06-15-2017, 05:40 AMCabalabobDetermination vs. tenacity
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06-15-2017, 05:46 AMdragonseth07
It sounds like Tenacity won't suffer the parry problem of being based on chance. That being the case, the consistent damage reduction in addition to personal DPS MIGHT be an overall raid DPS increase over Det if it can drop healing requirements and bump up healer DPS.
Likely? No. Possible? Yes. -
06-15-2017, 08:27 AMaleph_null
It'll depend on how the dps and defensive components scale. If the defensive component scales really well then it'll be the new mandatory stat for tanks, though it seems unlikely, imo. If the defensive component scales poorly then it'll probably be negligible and as you said it'll simply come down to how it compares to crit, det, sks and direct drive (though this stat would probably only be available for tanks via materia). At the very least they all do something unlike parry, so I'm happy with the change.
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06-15-2017, 09:53 AMXenosan
My pure guess is that it will still be Crit > Det, Tenacity just being an alternative to Det, if just slightly less value per point. any defense value being negligible. But we'll see in just over a day,
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06-15-2017, 10:05 AMKaisinel
I'm gonna Shirk the living crap out of tenacity
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06-15-2017, 10:45 AMAethon
To be fair we did this to ourselves. We wanted parry gone/fixed. They replaced it with something that gives us a constant damage reduction (plus more dps) instead of a chance for parry to trigger more.
Meta will go as it will but I think it'll likely be a good call to even stack DET/TEN with CRIT being the next for PLD. WAR will probably CRIT then DET, then TEN (since tenacity doesn't help with healing like det does ((i think)). DRK I have no idea because I really can't get a feel for the class even having it at 60; maybe similar to WAR? -
06-15-2017, 11:18 AMShurrikhanUnless they change Crit's scaling, it'll still have more output over time than Det, let alone SS or Ten.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aethon
Crit is the best stat for everyone but BLM, on whom it is still very strong. Those who have synergy with it just become or unwilling to take anything else; no other apart from Spell Speed on BLM has actually been co-optimal with it. -
06-15-2017, 01:34 PMReynhartI don't understand the reasoning behind that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aethon
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06-15-2017, 02:15 PMADVSS
have to see what they do to the stats remember they overhauled crit at 3,0 and it wouldnt surprise me if they weaken it to some degree
furthermore, im guessing itll just replace det since dps cant use tenacity supposedly so instead of parry itll show up on fending only. potentially they could go one step further and make det non existant on tank gear, and tenacity will just be det/parry replacement It would be a nice stat for even raiding dps to utilizee but supposedly its just a tank stat so yeah -
06-15-2017, 02:25 PMaqskerorokero
Tenacity is the new tank stat, and you will be playing a tank job...so...no math needed here....max it and then go on other stats....
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06-15-2017, 02:38 PMADVSSbeing speculative until its been mathed out, but seriously so was parry there was a reason it was avoided way more in hw than in arr we'll just have to seeQuote:
Originally Posted by aqskerorokero
I mean they went back to str being primary stat for damage, so who knows what else is getting changed around -
06-15-2017, 02:41 PMPhoeniciaParry was the old tank stat, we were playing tank jobs... based on your logic, we should've all just ignored the math and put on all that parry gear and then cry about losing aggro and how useless parry was against magic tank busters (which were 98% of the busters in HW). Sound logic. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by aqskerorokero
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06-15-2017, 02:51 PMdragonseth07That's funny. It's almost like you're serious.Quote:
Originally Posted by aqskerorokero
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06-15-2017, 02:57 PMDualbladeMaybe the logic that while Parry was mainly for tanks, anyone could still use it. Tenacity meanwhile really is only for tanks, thus might be considered required to some people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Thats my assumption of the logic there anyways. -
06-15-2017, 05:13 PMMarxam
Whichever gets me closer to that Direct Critical Hit Fell Cleave damage I'm stacking that stat other than Crit.
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06-15-2017, 09:46 PMaqskerorokeroNo No, I m very serious about this, it's a NEW stat....Parry was useless because SE nerfed it at some point at the end of ARR, back then even shields' dimensions were a thing(small, medium, big size) and STR in ARR could enhance the parry/block percentage.Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonseth07
One thing is sure, tenacity is tank only, works in both atk and def, I just don't understand why a tank player is mad or unhappy to be able to use more defensive stuff.....
I know parry was useless, and as tank player I m sad because it didn't work in the game. -
06-15-2017, 10:04 PMZojhaIt is, but the metagame hasn't changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by aqskerorokero
You take as many defensive stats as necessary and as many offensive stats as possible. The same principle applies to healing: You heal as much as necessary and DPS as much as possible.
What does that mean for tenacity? Well, if you need tenacity to survive, you're going to take it. If you want more than that depends on how much it increases your damage, because once survival is assured, you only want damage, so you're going to pick the secondaries that increase damage the most.
It's that simple, really. -
06-15-2017, 10:24 PMdragonseth07No-one is mad or unhappy. We are simply being realistic and saying that, mathematically, it's unlikely to be optimal.Quote:
Originally Posted by aqskerorokero
Everything in this game is math. Rotations are mathed out. Stat weights are mathed out. Everything is mathed out. The fact that it's a "tank stat" means nothing.
The fact that it's new means even less. New things can be amazing or terrible. Until we have our hands on it and take the time to test and come up with proper stat weights, our current assumptions are probably accurate, because it's unlikely to be so strong that it dethrones Crit or Det.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to be proven wrong. I would love for TEN to be the best stat for tanks. But, it seems unlikely. -
06-16-2017, 12:32 AMMuziko
Seeing as tenacity is +dmg, +healing, -dmg I think it will be a great stat for progression sake. Then I'm guessing det will scale better for damage so players will switch over to it once they are more comfortable with content. That's just a guess
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06-16-2017, 01:15 AMRyuDragnier
But what if tanks will be unable to use DET, just Tenacity? A random thought I had, it wouldn't surprise me if SE decided tanks don't need the DET stat on equipment because they have Tenacity.
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06-16-2017, 01:24 AMGalactimus
No one else notice they changed the Tooltip for Tenacity?
It now increases damage dealt, reduces damage received, AND increases healing received. With Paladin's having enough MP to cast twice as many Clemency's, restore MP with dps combos, and self-buff them all with Convalescence + Requiescat + Tenacity, we are looking at some insane self-sustain levels. -
06-16-2017, 03:39 AMaqskerorokeroPlus, I think the second main stat will be skill speed, now it affects auto attacks, so who want's to stay more in sword oath can choose ss over crit I guess.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Galactimus