Still a Bit Confused

I, like many of you, have been scouring the patch notes. I am intrigued by the changes to the classes, but one thing remains unclear.

It appears that they have removed our basic TP-building attacks. Am I to infer that the battle mechanics are shifting towards a system similar to FFXI, where all your TP gain is done through solely auto-attack? This is a troubling thought that weighs on my mind. The uneasiness is compounded by the following patch note:

[dev1206] The rate of TP accumulation from auto-attacks has been reduced to coincide with the implementation of individual combos.

Am I missing something here? If they removed our basic TP-building attacks, AND TP generation from auto-attack is being reduced, then how are we supposed to build TP?

Combos use no tp so if you play it smart you won't need to build tp it seems.

Keep in mind they said reduced not taken away so you still build tp via normal attacks. They just needed to offset the combos with something negative for the players. If they give us more power in one area they need to take it away in another for balance or else we get too powerful.

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Originally Posted by ToxicFox

Combos use no tp so if you play it smart you won't need to build tp it seems.

Keep in mind they said reduced not taken away so you still build tp via normal attacks. They just needed to offset the combos with something negative for the players. If they give us more power in one area they need to take it away in another for balance or else we get too powerful.

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Pretty much this. With the combo system, only the first WS uses tp. Some combos (I think) have 3 or 4 WSes in them, so it's like getting a 4x damage WS for the price of one. Kinda OP with our current rate of tp generation.

Throwing weapons FTW!

That all makes sense, but wouldn't removing the TP-generating abilities not be a big enough hit? Auto-attack is still pretty slow on it's own as is. Or at least in my experience.

Regardless, thanks for clearing that up for me.

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Originally Posted by BlaiseLallaise

That all makes sense, but wouldn't removing the TP-generating abilities not be a big enough hit? Auto-attack is still pretty slow on it's own as is. Or at least in my experience.

Regardless, thanks for clearing that up for me.

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Well, let's take PGL for example. Depending on weapon, you're hitting every three seconds or so (3.3 seconds on Ifrit Claws, 3.2 on other Claws). Each auto-attack currently gives, what, 400 TP or so? So, around the 10 second mark you'd be able to launch 3 weaponskills, which, if you spaced them out, would give you the TP you need to start your next combo. . .

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Well, let's take PGL for example. Depending on weapon, you're hitting every three seconds or so (3.3 seconds on Ifrit Claws, 3.2 on other Claws). Each auto-attack currently gives, what, 400 TP or so? So, around the 10 second mark you'd be able to launch 3 weaponskills, which, if you spaced them out, would give you the TP you need to start your next combo. . .

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Sounds reasonable to me. By reducing TP gain through auto-attack, they're effectively forcing us to either have to wait for more TP before the next combo, or really space them out. How much time might we get to execute combos where they retain their 'combo' status and not just revert back to a normal weapon skill? Eh, I'll find out soon enough.

TP is already pretty trivial as it is. I won't say what they're doing here is the right thing to do, but I think the system needed balancing.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

TP is already pretty trivial as it is. I won't say what they're doing here is the right thing to do, but I think the system needed balancing.

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Yea, I agree. Especially as Marauder & Lancer I very rarely have to actively build TP, it's generally just always there. I welcome some better decision-making in my gameplay.

This may work out ok. On the surface it sounds like it's going to slow down combat, but after looking over some of the WS data it may end up being the same.

1000 TP WS typically have a 10-20s CD
1500 TP WS typically have a 20-30s CD
2000+ TP WS typically have a 60-80s CD

Let's say they lower the TP per hit from 500 to 300. It would take 30 seconds of uninterrupted auto-attacks at an attack delay of 3s to build up enough TP to get to 3000 TP, however, all the high TP moves chain off of a 1500 TP WS. So the way I see things working from a DPS standpoint, you get 1500 TP, do your high damage chain, get 1000 or 1500 TP, do those chain combos until your high cooldown skills are about to refresh, and rinse and repeat.

After mulling it over for a good while, I'm starting to see the picture. I have no choice but to trust that the system works when used properly until I have a chance to try it out.

That sorta sends me off to another topic. Does it not seem like the new system is forcing a certain battle tactic, while punishing anything else? Meaning, it seems like I'm being faced with a decision to either always utilize self combos or become effectively worthless in battle. Hopefully those non TP-based abilities will flavor it up enough to keep combat from feeling so one-dimensional.

I had a thread about this earlier called "Combos: Theory vs. Reality" in which we discussed similar issues. Overall, I am concerned. This is why. Think about a recent party you had. How long did the monsters last? 10-12 seconds? Generally, not very long. To me, this suggests combos aren't necessarily designed for exp parties (particularly 8-person parties), rather NMs/solo where the mob lasts longer. However, TP gain will still be lowered, regardless if you use combos or not. IMO, I believe this will result in generally slower grinding.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by BlaiseLallaise

That sorta sends me off to another topic. Does it not seem like the new system is forcing a certain battle tactic, while punishing anything else? Meaning, it seems like I'm being faced with a decision to either always utilize self combos or become effectively worthless in battle. Hopefully those non TP-based abilities will flavor it up enough to keep combat from feeling so one-dimensional.

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That seems to be the case, because it doesn't make sense to use a 3000 TP ability on its own when you can use a 1500 TP ability in a shorter amount of time AND get a bonus out of it if you perform the requirements for it.

Now the thing I'm curious about is casters. Do their chained spells consume MP?

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3. Sequence: Landing the specified weaponskill or spell on the enemy immediately beforehand.

Not only will a successful combo grant you the bonus indicated; TP cost will also be waived for the weaponskill used to execute it. For a combo to be valid, however, the weaponskill in question must be used with the class or job to which it belongs.

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Their wording only seems to focus on weapon skills, so it's a bit hazy about spell chains.

I don't know if it'd be imbalanced or not if the chained spells didn't consume MP. The spell used to initiate the chain is going to be scaled for higher MP costs the higher you are in level. From a THM's perspective, Thundara is a 30s recast, Thundaga is a 45s recast. Fira is a 16s recast, Firaga is a 7s recast (typo???). So at the very least, there's going to be some down time between using chains, and the tier one nukes have to fill that void. I speculate that nukes are going to cost at least 100 MP per, and as of the current patch I haven't seen many people with mana pools over 1500.

In my eyes, it'd make sense that the chains didn't consume MP since you're going to have to do at least 2-3 filler spells until the chaining abilities come off cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Gidonoidon_Sur

I had a thread about this earlier called "Combos: Theory vs. Reality" in which we discussed similar issues. Overall, I am concerned. This is why. Think about a recent party you had. How long did the monsters last? 10-12 seconds? Generally, not very long. To me, this suggests combos aren't necessarily designed for exp parties (particularly 8-person parties), rather NMs/solo where the mob lasts longer. However, TP gain will still be lowered, regardless if you use combos or not. IMO, I believe this will result in generally slower grinding.

Thoughts?

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I think with the reduced TP generation and if I'm interpreting correctly, the removal of our other three TP-generating attacks, battles may be longer than normal. We won't be able to maintain the same high XP chains that we can now, thus reducing XP gain and perhaps evening the pace out.

The AoE capabilities of a mage might be more desired now in such parties, the risk of lower HP and defense to deal out more AoE damage or the added pressure of the tank to secure enmity of all targets.

I think in AoE situations, monsters could go down fast every 20 seconds, with a 60~80 second timeframe during AoE cooldowns. Single target situations, I think we'll be fine in terms of destructive power.

I'm curious to see what happens.

Combos are all well and good, but I wonder how it will turn out for solo players unable to combo.

I do agree that TP has been pretty meaningless so far and did need some balancing, but we'll see how things go on the solo side of the new system. Hopefully auto-attack TP gain isn't too dismal.

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Originally Posted by Deltara

Combos are all well and good, but I wonder how it will turn out for solo players unable to combo.

I do agree that TP has been pretty meaningless so far and did need some balancing, but we'll see how things go on the solo side of the new system. Hopefully auto-attack TP gain isn't too dismal.

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Actually, combos were designed for solo play. Monsters die too fast in exp parties for combos to be plausible.

I think Deltara was referring to those combos that cannot be executed due to impossible positioning requirements while solo. I think every job has a no-positioning-required combo available to them, however.

I'm perfectly fine with combos not being feasible in exp parties. The game should never be balanced to exp party settings. That being said, without the extra TP generating abilities, I think exp monsters will die slower, perhaps allowing for combos.

Nope, Masamune was right. I've been completely misinterpreting the entire combo system. lol

I was confused by the excessive use of "Weaponskill 1" instead of actual weaponskill names. I assumed that all weaponskills fit into "Category 1" "Category 2" etc categories... and that someone had to follow any Weaponskill 1 with a Weaponskill 2.

But now it seems that is completely not what they were saying. So this doesn't require any teamwork at all then? This is all solo stuff?

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Originally Posted by Deltara

Nope, Masamune was right. I've been completely misinterpreting the entire combo system. lol

I was confused by the excessive use of "Weaponskill 1" instead of actual weaponskill names. I assumed that all weaponskills fit into "Category 1" "Category 2" etc categories... and that someone had to follow any Weaponskill 1 with a Weaponskill 2.

But now it seems that is completely not what they were saying. So this doesn't require any teamwork at all then? This is all solo stuff?

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Yep, in fact you can't do combos with other people, even if you are the same class.

Wow, that is disappointing. Maybe they will add team combos later... maybe only jobs will get team combo weaponskills or something.

Wow... just... wow.

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Originally Posted by Deltara

Wow, that is disappointing. Maybe they will add team combos later... maybe only jobs will get team combo weaponskills or something.

Wow... just... wow.

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Battle regime is still coming back for pty skillchain plus jobs will combo with classes lest they claim it will from one of the note they posted
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...764#post449764

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Originally Posted by Deltara

Wow, that is disappointing. Maybe they will add team combos later... maybe only jobs will get team combo weaponskills or something.

Wow... just... wow.

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Of course. Strictly limiting any and all combos under the co-op banner would have been disappointing. Even skillchains were troublesome to execute for some individuals.

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Originally Posted by Gidonoidon_Sur

I had a thread about this earlier called "Combos: Theory vs. Reality" in which we discussed similar issues. Overall, I am concerned. This is why. Think about a recent party you had. How long did the monsters last? 10-12 seconds? Generally, not very long. To me, this suggests combos aren't necessarily designed for exp parties (particularly 8-person parties), rather NMs/solo where the mob lasts longer. However, TP gain will still be lowered, regardless if you use combos or not. IMO, I believe this will result in generally slower grinding.

Thoughts?

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Kinda sounds like there's a hidden agenda to curb power leveling as it is now existed before 1.20.

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Originally Posted by Deltara

Wow, that is disappointing. Maybe they will add team combos later... maybe only jobs will get team combo weaponskills or something.

Wow... just... wow.

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If i remember correctly yoshi mentioned chaining combo's together to create a kind of supper attack in a party setting later down the line.


But for the general question of tp gain, when in doubt invigorate