4 Man Balance =/= 8 Man Balance

I just wanted to create a thread to get the community started thinking about this before we watch jobs get kicked in 4 man content for not being part of 8 man content meta.

For what I'm about to say, I'll let you guys reply to this thread and discuss the numbers and math. I am just going to express the general idea and let you guys think about it.

When we look at 8 man savage raid content, a lot of us (at least in our current raid tier did) look for jobs that have raid party buffs that increase the raid damage output of other players or the entire party. Our meta for the past tier became developed off of that notion.

What I want you guys to think about is how useful a buff is that affects an entire party when the party size is 4 and not 8. I think if you go into the math, you will probably find that jobs that have higher potential for their own output and lack those raid party buffs would actually be better to have in a 4 person sized party. If not better, then they should be at least on par.

The reason I bring this up is because our game has players who do not think this way and will kick players from dungeons for not being a job that is part of the 8 person sized party meta. I would like to get us to all start thinking about this sort of thing before people go off and do things like this.

I've never seen a dungeon kick for this reason. Seems REALLY out there.

I've seen plenty of kicks for good and bad reasons, but never one for this.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

I've never seen a dungeon kick for this reason. Seems REALLY out there.

I've seen plenty of kicks for good and bad reasons, but never one for this.

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Me either, but I've read about it. On the other hand, I've seen this kind of stuff happen in WoW, so if we start getting a lot of players from WoW for the expansion . . .

I haven't seen it either....hope I never do. Though if people are complaining about having a WHM in a 4-man they're crazy...Holy spam is incredibly good for AOE.

i actually did the math a while back and the results are very varying. i did all of this assuming dps is constant (which is not) but it shouldnt matter too much honestly

first i got the effectiveness of each rr effect compared to the effectiveness of a single balance
extended = (60+25)/30 = 2.833 times more effective than a balance
enhanced = 1.5*(30+25/30) = 2.75 times more effective
extended is always better than enhanced if it lasts for the full duration of 85 seconds.
expanded depends on party dps so it should be something like... this 2*0.5 + h/d * 0.5 + t/d * 0.5 = 1+(h+t)/2d
where h is healer dps, d is dps...dps. and t is tank dps

if we want to know the breaking point for when extended is the same as enhanced we gotta do
1.2*time= 1.3*55 + (time-55)
you evaluate the equation and get 82.5 seconds


its all dependent on party dps so lets just assume everyone is good at what they do.
usually (good) healers do about 1300 dps right now, and tanks like 1800 i think? dont quote me on that. decent dps do like 2100 dps afaik

now we see what the party's damage would be after 85 seconds in every scenario and assuming both dps do about the same damage (D will be one dps and d will be the other one)


no buffs
85 * (D + d + h + t) = 85 * ( 2100 + 2100 + 1300 + 1800) = 620500 damage

for extended
85 * (2.833 * 1.2 * D + d + h + t) = 1048828.6 damage

enhanced (lasts 30 seconds less, mind you)
85* ( (2.75 * 1.2 * 55+30)/85 * D + d + h + t ) = 886150 damage

expanded (i split it into the first 40 seconds of balance, 15 seconds of whoever you used time dilation on, and the remaining dps without buff

40 * 1.1 * (D + d + h + t) + 15 * (1.1* D + d + h + t) + 30 * (D + d + h + t) =
40 * 1.1 * (2100 + 2100 + 1300 + 1800) + 15 * (1.1* 2100 + 2100 + 1300 + 1800) + 30 * (2100 + 2100 + 1300 + 1800) = 652850 damage

this is of course assuming people are decent at their job but in order to tell right on the spot youd probably need to have to express every party member's dps in terms of the highest party member's dps and try to approximate what these numbers would be like which is. honestly not remotely close to being worthy

TLDR extended rr is better than enhanced if it can last 85 seconds. 82.5 seconds or less means enhanced is better.

In years of playing this game, admittedly more on-and-off since 3.x, I have never personally witnessed any Job being kicked from a 4-man duty simply for being that Job.

Typically players are just glad that someone accepted the damned queue notification and get on with it.

Same as Cynfael, and even in 8-man duty.
There are rare pf that ask for an optimal team.

Edit : But honestly, why would they kick people for being a job on 4 man content?
Dungeons are easy, there's absolutely no need to rely on meta for it.

As long as everyone is doing fine... who cares.

I'm wondering why you are thinking this.
Where did you read it could happen.

Meta is for real hardcore gamers and speed kills.

Square has tried to design jobs so that as long as you have at least different jobs, they can all beat the content.
So the "meta" will indeed have more facility to beat it because it has been made to be optimal (for both defensive and offensive utility) BUT
Every jobs can do it.

So unless you're in a hardcore static, you will not experience kick to be a specific job as long as you're doing your job correctly.

As someone who has been fairly active in criticising White Mage, you're a damn fool worrying about "meta" for dungeons. None of this is taking into account White Mage is probably the best healer for dungeon, it just straight up is irrelevant. You can make a case with Savage because job synergy can be a factor. Dungeons? No one cares.

Thanks for the feedback guys, but keep in mind this post isn't for me. It's for the people worried about being kicked.

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Originally Posted by Mahkii

Thanks for the feedback guys, but keep in mind this post isn't for me. It's for the people worried about being kicked.

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That's the thing NO ONE is worried about being kicked from dungeons for this reason, as it has never happened or will it ever happen.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

Balance

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By any chance did you only read the topic title?

I've never seen anyone kicked from a dungeon for having a none supportive job...
I mean... you must be some kind of insane elitist jerk to kick someone of a dungeon for not having the job you wish them to have. (especially considering how easy dungeons are)

And anyway, any potential dps gained from getting the job you want will be lost since you'll have to wait a good 1-2 min to get a replacement and another 2-3 min for the replacement to catch up the group. And that's assuming you don't get the same or a "worse" job.
That's going through a lot of trouble for a very minimal and (especially) useless reward...
At most having the perfect aoe / monotarget balanced group will reduce the dungeon duration by what? 5-10min?

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Originally Posted by QooEr

TLDR extended rr is better than enhanced if it can last 85 seconds. 82.5 seconds or less means enhanced is better.

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Very interesting numbers, but this is about balance as in terms of game balance, not the card buff.

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Originally Posted by Mahkii

Me either, but I've read about it. On the other hand, I've seen this kind of stuff happen in WoW, so if we start getting a lot of players from WoW for the expansion . . .

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Then those former WoW players are going to be in for a shock. From my observations, FFXIV players give more pushback when someone attempts to kick another for a stupid reason in a four man.

Heck, even when there's a good reason to kick the other, FFXIV players usually deny the kick. They rather just finish the dungeon. Granted this is all subjective but I've never observed the kind of behavior a lot of the "sky is falling, (insert job) will be kicked from every instance" posts go on about. I believe most players are aware of the meta but understand it doesn't matter in four mans.

The only time I've seen something similar to this was in 2.0. When speedrunning/sac runs to farm tomes was king, groups typically wanted pld/whm/brd/blm. IIRC that was considered the BEST dungeon comp. (It probably wasn't, but I think it was considered to be.) So it was annoying for others to find a spot. Players who were part of that "best comp" had it made for finding groups and everyone else had to kind of mash together into other groups.

It's not the same thing as kicking someone. but it's also not ideal or fair. I think the ways this game has changed will make this not happen again tbh. But I may be surprised.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Then those former WoW players are going to be in for a shock. From my observations, FFXIV players give more pushback when someone attempts to kick another for a stupid reason in a four man.

Heck, even when there's a good reason to kick the other, FFXIV players usually deny the kick. They rather just finish the dungeon. Granted this is all subjective but I've never observed the kind of behavior a lot of the "sky is falling, (insert job) will be kicked from every instance" posts go on about. I believe most players are aware of the meta but understand it doesn't matter in four mans.

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As a former WoW player, my observational opinion over the past two years is that there is absolutely no difference in the community outside of the obvious lack of Alliance vs Horde fangasms.

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Originally Posted by Mahkii

Me either, but I've read about it. On the other hand, I've seen this kind of stuff happen in WoW, so if we start getting a lot of players from WoW for the expansion . . .

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I played WoW to the raid game through the first 5 xpacs over some 8 years...and not one time did I ever see someone kicked from a 5 man dungeon, in any mode, based solely on their class/spec. I don't even know anyone who has ever seen it happen, or even heard of it.

This is forum myth, nothing more.

And even in 8/24 player content, there are very few proper super-meta elite statics out there, and the folks in them max every class, all the gear, and practice endlessly to be in that top tier, so yes, they have class restrictions on certain things, but not easy-as-pie 4 man DF stuff.

I have never seen a kick or even discussion of a kick for players not having optimal composition in a 4-person party.

I have seen players suggest big pulls for aoe friendly party comps, and I've refused to pull big when I don't have an aoe friendly party comp, but that's about it.

Do that many people really kick is the real question I have... On here people make it seem as though its happening all the time, yet I rarely ever see it occur in my groups unless the person is afk/offline.
What I don't get is how my experience is so different from what others make out.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Do that many people really kick is the real question I have... On here people make it seem as though its happening all the time, yet I rarely ever see it occur in my groups unless the person is afk/offline.
What I don't get is how my experience is so different from what others make out.

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I've had the exact same experience, as have many of my friends - I rarely hear stories of people getting kicked for their behavior, even less for an unjustified one. It's nothing more than dramatics (or the people complaining about being kicked all the time not realizing that they're the reason.)