Low level dungeons need a nerf? [Discussion]

Here is me running lvl 50-60 dungeons in a flash (ofc with a good DPS) while doing low level dungeons takes double if not more time. New players, with the goal to reach their lvl 60(70 soon) friends, are relying on dungeons to level up (unless they discover Palace of the dead). So, can't the Dev boost players in-dungeons or lower mobs HP to fasten the process of leveling? Are their any negative effect if low level dungeons are nerfed?( e.g: story neglection..)

What do you think?

Level up to 60 in PotD, do low level dungeons unsynched

The dungeons don't need a nerf, only the DF have to give you decent good DPS players

They did increase the amount of exp leveling dungeons offer.
And even without that: No, they dont need a nerf. Specially no in the form of lowering anyones HP - because THAT would have a negative impact, excatly the one that PotD already has: if mobs dont have high enough HP and die to fast, no one can properly learn their rotation and how to play their class. PotD mob are currently often dying before anyone was able to decently finish a full rotation. And not everyone is going to practice at a dummy to learn how to play their class at level 60/70.

Can we please stop asking for an already easy process in an easy game to get further nerfed?

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Originally Posted by Fomitsu

Are their any negative effect if low level dungeons are nerfed?

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Player skill, low as it is, will get even lower still.
Honestly, why does everyone always call for nerfs instead of trying to improve themselves?
Or is this another troll topic??

They're already plenty of experience point boosting methods available to level up. If they reduce the HP of trash just so people can get done faster, they might as well remove the completion bonus as a trade off. On the other hand, just buy the levels if they're going to be in such a rush.

They're bringing out potions you can buy to get jobs up fast. If someone is in a hurry, let 'em donate to SE in exchange for their get out of jail--or in this case dungeons / leveling / learning their darn class--card.

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Originally Posted by Fomitsu

Here is me running lvl 50-60 dungeons in a flash (ofc with a good DPS) while doing low level dungeons takes double if not more time. New players, with the goal to reach their lvl 60(70 soon) friends, are relying on dungeons to level up (unless they discover Palace of the dead). So, can't the Dev boost players in-dungeons or lower mobs HP to fasten the process of leveling? Are their any negative effect if low level dungeons are nerfed?( e.g: story neglection..)

What do you think?

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its called big pulls u can get out of there in 15 to 20 mins no nerfs needed

Low level dungeons do not need any kinds of nerfs. The only reason they take longer than a level 60 dungeon or even a level 50 dungeon is because of a lack of a full rotation, and lack of stronger skills that come with leveling. Not because they're hard, or because mobs have more HP.

Please stop asking for nerfs. All dungeons in this game are already mind-numbingly easy. There's no reason to make them even easier.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

its called big pulls u can get out of there in 15 to 20 mins no nerfs needed

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They nerfed AOEs and DPS all around, level capped dungeons will take longer than they used to.

Low lvl dgns don't need nerfs. They need a revamp to make them more appealing and/or engaging.

It says a lot when a player would rather take a 30min penalty just to avoid Sastasha

All leveling dungeons should be made more difficult with less trash. Right now they put me to sleep, especially when my "rotation" is one or two buttons.

No, just no.

What really needs to happen for low level dungeons is to allow players to keep their abilities while synced.

The extra abilities will be throttled by the ilvl sync.

After hitting 60 (in all classes) there is ZERO reason to ever go into a leveling roulette.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

They nerfed AOEs and DPS all around, level capped dungeons will take longer than they used to.

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Im still gona big pull regardless I refuse to pull three adds at a time not gona happen thats from level 15 dungeon on up , copperbell, tama tara all of them can be six adds and up, and can be finished in 20 mins. To me tanks that pull three adds at a time in there are wasting peoples time but Id never pull adds as anything but a tank but u are clearly built to handle more than three adds in any content. The only dungeon I only big pull sometimes in is qarn because of the bees and all dps dont kill them in time, are maybe if adds put a vulnerability duff on u with weakness. But its no reason at all to ever only pull three adds at time , in this game and one is just really sad how some tanks do this as well I just dont understand but I respect it grudgingly I guess.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Im still gona big pull regardless I refuse to pull three adds at a time not gona happen thats from level 15 dungeon on up , copperbell, tama tara all of them can be six adds and up, and can be finished in 20 mins.

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You will pull multiple groups even when your party doesnt has any AoE at their hands? You do realise that thats a very bad way to play, right? The healer will have to heal you more, ergo less time to dps - and if the dps cant burn down a whole lot of them quickly (because no AoE) you gain absolutly nothing. If the dps in your party can only do single target, whats the point in doubling the single targets?
(To back this up a bit: puglist get their first AoE on 26; SMN/Scholar gets their actual AoE-skill Bane on level 30; ninja and dragoon dont have an AoE before 42 - so everyone except BLM, bard and mcn arent really great with AoE until at least Haukke)
Blindly doing large pulls without being aware of your party composition makes you a pretty bad tank, not a good one.

whether you do the big pulls or not, it's going to take them longer to die.

don't see how direct hit can make up for all the nerfs.

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

All leveling dungeons should be made more difficult with less trash. Right now they put me to sleep, especially when my "rotation" is one or two buttons.

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This would serve both purposes. Shortening a dungeon while giving the new players some sort of incentive to pay attention. Take Sastasah a lot of that can be removed so you can get to the first bosses quicker

Now the Coeurl is a different story. It's great as a first boss, shows AoE indicator and could go with a mini-tank buster.

Again, remove a lot of the things between the last two bosses but make it so the adds buff the boss. This will get some people to focus on adds before they're taught bad lessons.

Right now it's taught to just burn and ignore, which works but it makes things difficult in later dungeons. So a dungeon suddenly becomes shorter and a bit more engaging but we're just talking about the very first one. 15 - 18.

Haukke, could have a few of those rooms removed completely and their bosses slightly adjusted, start adding a bit more unavoidable damage to other players. Have Lady Amandine do her own level 1 limit break on the party, have those lights do either a bit more damage or start regenerating the boss, makes ignoring mechanics more punishing. So you're right we need some sort of adjustments on the dungeons I don't think just increasing dmg or reducing mob HP is the answer. I always thought this was a bigger issue and it would mean deleting rather than so much adding.

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

What rotation do you want to practice in Sastasha?

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At that level? Just basic rotations. There's those who do their second combo and figure just because they hit the first they just have to activate the second and never hit the first again. There was even someone who suggested it, and after you hit the first weaponskill to have it constantly activate the next one as a bonus forever without having to hit it again.

It's also a nice start if you can put in a damage dealing tank buster so the Gladiators use their defensive cool downs. Some don't use them and it starts bad habits already because they're level 15 - 18 and don't see the point in using Rampart since they have never been forced to.

For someone like yourself? Nothing. Though it makes things less stressful for you later because a tank has had issues dying at level 15 while you're running a level 52 dungeon, they know to use Rampart and how it helps.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

no one can properly learn their rotation and how to play their class.

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What rotation do you want to practice in Sastasha?

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

What rotation do you want to practice in Sastasha?

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I was under the impression this was about leveling dungeons in general, not Sastasha?

Also: Not excatly a rotation but using/keeping up dots as bard, for example - if stuff dies to quickly, a new archer might easly consider them useless and dont get used to using them.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

You will pull multiple groups even when your party doesnt has any AoE at their hands? You do realise that thats a very bad way to play, right? The healer will have to heal you more, ergo less time to dps - and if the dps cant burn down a whole lot of them quickly (because no AoE) you gain absolutly nothing. If the dps in your party can only do single .

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I play all jobs Im very well aware of , party comp , but on drk its fairly easy to do these pulls and warrior is similar to im not spending 30 mins in shasaha normal when I dont have to. nor copper bell the adds die so fast in there its a waste to do three add pulls. And now healers dont even have any aoe anyway sense blizzard 2 is removed from cross role so might as well give them something to do.

Nobody complains if anything people are actually relieved I didnt waste an extra ten mins of their time by doing baby pulls in low level dungeons. All the dungeons below the spider one whatever u call it can be done in 15- 17 mins. And all the rest of the level dungeons can be done in 20 although Qarn, DD, Stone Vigil, And Aurum vale can lag sometimes based on people in ur party but they can all be in 20 mins as well.

Its no need to spend 30 mins in a dungeon if no wipes have happened just because the tank want big pull when they have the toolsets to do it. Pali is the only tank with no aoe, in low level content warrior and drk can easily out dps many dps in low level dungeons with aoe spam so I dont see the problem here these are lowbie dungeons that are some of the easiest content in the game. As a Drk you can easily pull every single add after the green slim up to the boss in copperbell witch is about 9 or 11 adds with ease I dont really understand where ur coming from on this one. I disagree with op and just simply stated that you can easily haste these dungeons by from just doing large pulls as a tank and its no need for a nerf.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

They did increase the amount of exp leveling dungeons offer.
And even without that: No, they dont need a nerf. Specially no in the form of lowering anyones HP - because THAT would have a negative impact, excatly the one that PotD already has: if mobs dont have high enough HP and die to fast, no one can properly learn their rotation and how to play their class. PotD mob are currently often dying before anyone was able to decently finish a full rotation. And not everyone is going to practice at a dummy to learn how to play their class at level 60/70.

Can we please stop asking for an already easy process in an easy game to get further nerfed?

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There is nothing in leveling dungeons that necessitates or even properly rewards using an optimal or 'correct' rotation or playstyle. Rather, such an incredibly large degree of poor play is required until the game pushes back hard enough for a player to notice and consider changes to their playstyle/tactics.

While nerfing it from what it is now won't help the situation, the current situation doesn't help them learn much either. The only challenges in the game that properly address gameplay mechanics are boss fights, and those challenges only really start to appear around level 50, (with some minor ramp up starting around level 40). In the very least, nerfing trash mobs to help clear times be comparable to POTD, could be an option to help solve the current preference, that's likely to skew even more heavily come Stormblood.

Much less, it is VERY MUCH worth considering how many players are going to buy a jump potion, and skip lower level dungeons entirely. In which case, your defense of keeping them as is becomes superfluous, as they'll only set foot in these dungeons well after encountering more difficult challenges.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

There is nothing in leveling dungeons that necessitates or even properly rewards using an optimal or 'correct' rotation or playstyle. Rather, such an incredibly

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Its a bit of jumping the gun to assume that everyones just gona buy a jump potion because really , the only point in skipping the story is if u plan to raid. If you do not plan to raid then theres zero reason to skip, many people take their sweet time with the story because they really have no endgame goals. If you have no endgame goals then a jump potion would be a waste of money. The dungeons are fine as is, I blame the tanks for doing baby pulls for making some of these dungeons take longer than they should. A three add pull is a waste of time I dont care what dungeon ur doing if all they do is autoattacks.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

I play all jobs Im very well aware of , party comp , but on drk its fairly easy to do these pulls and warrior is similar to im not spending 30 mins in shasaha normal when I dont have to. nor copper bell the adds die so fast in there its a waste to do three add pulls. And now healers dont even have any aoe anyway sense blizzard 2 is removed from cross role so might as well give them something to do.

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When did I say anything about healers needing an AoE? The whole point is: If your party doesnt has decent AoE and you do a large pull, it actually requires the healer to pay attention to healing - in dungeons that are so easy that its not needed at all. As a scholar I never leave Cleric Stance once in any dungeon prior to Brayflox and am essiantially a third dps - speeds dungeons up quite a bit. I cant do that if a tank goes for a large pull though, so unless there is good AoE that kills a lot of mob at once, its basically the loss of a Dps.
The benefit of large pulls is obviously that more mobs are taking damage from the same attack (AoEs) - if there is no such thing as decent AoE present in your party and everyone has to focus one mob at a time anyways, you gain nothing from a large pull, because, again: your dps can only attack one mob at a time. Wether the group of mobs contains 3 or 6 mobs doesnt matter when your two melees can only burn on at a time - it does matter to your healer wether they have to heal through 3 mobs (and have time to dps) or 6 mobs (less or no time to dps, depending on dungeon and gear of the tank).

And btw... I did a TamTara-run earlier. Took about 17 minutes. Two new people, no big pulls, no AoEs at our disposal, but a healer (me) constantly dps'ing - lets not pretend that its (only) big pulls that speed up a dungeon. Sometimes normal pulls are the smart move - specially when there is no AoE present.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

There is nothing in leveling dungeons that necessitates or even properly rewards using an optimal or 'correct' rotation or playstyle. Rather, such an incredibly large degree of poor play is required until the game pushes back hard enough for a player to notice and consider changes to their playstyle/tactics.

While nerfing it from what it is now won't help the situation, the current situation doesn't help them learn much either. The only challenges in the game that properly address gameplay mechanics are boss fights, and those challenges only really start to appear around level 50, (with some minor ramp up starting around level 40). In the very least, nerfing trash mobs to help clear times be comparable to POTD, could be an option to help solve the current preference, that's likely to skew even more heavily come Stormblood.

Much less, it is VERY MUCH worth considering how many players are going to buy a jump potion, and skip lower level dungeons entirely. In which case, your defense of keeping them as is becomes superfluous, as they'll only set foot in these dungeons well after encountering more difficult challenges.

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Yeah no, personally I'd rather they buff them. Even as boring as they are atm I'd rather not see old leveling dungeons go the way WoW's did. That is, being able to ignore your party all together and run off to solo the dungeon by yourself (I am guilty of this ;P).

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Originally Posted by Vidu

When did I say anything about healers needing an AoE? The whole point is: If your party doesnt has decent AoE and you do a large pull, it actually requires the healer to pay attention to healing - in dungeons that are so easy that its not needed at all. As a scholar I never leave Cleric Stance once in any dungeon prior to Brayflox and am essiantially a third dps - speeds dungeons up quite a bit. I cant do that if a tank goes for a large pull though, so unless there is good AoE that kills a lot of mob at once, its basically the loss of a Dps.
The benefit of large pulls is obviously that more mobs are taking damage from the same attack (AoEs) - if there is no such thing as decent AoE present in your party and everyone has to focus one mob at a time anyways, you gain nothing from a large pull, because, again: your dps can only attack one mob at a time. Wether the group of mobs contains 3 or 6 mobs doesnt matter when your two melees can only burn on at a time - it does matter to your healer wether they have to heal through 3 mobs (and have time to dps) or 6 mobs (less or no time to dps, depending on dungeon and gear of the tank).

And btw... I did a TamTara-run earlier. Took about 17 minutes. Two new people, no big pulls, no AoEs at our disposal, but a healer (me) constantly dps'ing - lets not pretend that its (only) big pulls that speed up a dungeon. Sometimes normal pulls are the smart move - specially when there is no AoE present.

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To add on to this, in most lowbie dungeons unless you have a blm/brd/mch in the group, spamming your tank aoe like overpower is just going to deplete your tp long before anythings dead. Iirc, only warrior has anyway to restore tp and that's after 50.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

When did I say anything about healers needing an AoE? The whole point is: If your party doesnt has decent AoE and you do a large pull, it actually requires the healer to pay attention to healing - in dungeons that are so easy that its not needed at all. As a scholar I never leave Cleric Stance once in any dungeon prior to Brayflox and am essiantially

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But Ive mention yes thats true I do the samething on my scholar as well , but if the tank is doing enough aoe then I dont see the issue here. Unleash is an aoe overpower is an aoe, so on a drk u can make up for the lack of party aoe. Same thing for the warrior , overpower is more than enough in a lowbie dungeon to make up for some dps not having any aoe. And we both know alot of healers simply just dont dps even in low level dungeons so if alll they are gona do is spam cure 1 then I will give them something to heal.

I think both methods work but I just find it very boring to pull two adds at a time when you can pull six or seven at a time. And until someone states that its an issue I will continue to do so when I get in a dungeon its how fast can I get out of here and big pulls have always helped me out, when Im healing and a tank does 3 add pulls even when Im dpsing it always seems to take 30 mins still and is pretty boring. But hopefully with cleric changing it will help these dungeons go by faster than ever heres to keeping those fingers crossed

The lower level dungeons teach some decent mechanics. Ranged trash that won't move with pulls, DoTs that need dispelled, bosses with weird mechanics at different stages of the fight, etc. Unlike the slopfest going on in PotD, you can sorta kinda learn to play your class/job in lower level dungeons, so making them easier does not much except further dumb down and erode the current overall skill level of the playerbase.

Not sure anyone really wants that.

I think it's more the fact that you don't often have ideal gear for the dungeon , many jobs don't have AoE at low levels and you often have new players.

I had a 15 minute Copper Bell the other day so it is possible to run it really fast if you get the right party.

I think the exact opposite.

It's not that low level dungeons need a nerf - more that "end game" dungeons (ie level capped tomestone dungeons) need a rather large buff in difficulty.

If people's concern is that farming tomes will end up taking longer - then scale tome rewards up with the difficulty.

Over the past number of expert roulette cycles, the dungeons have progressively become easier and easier.
There are problems when you can easily pull every mob up until the next gate/wall and burn everything down at ease. Stuff should be quite a bit more threatening than they currently are.

That would fix the "Healers should DPS" argument. Make healing more intensive.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Im still gona big pull regardless

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And that's how you kill your party. A good tank assesses the capabilities of his party and pulls proportionally to what they can handle.

On topic: the point of leveling dungeons posing a challenge is to provide an environment from which to gradually learn what you have and how to use it. Not much to learn at max level, thus things tend to go more quickly, but don't pretend you didn't have to brick your way up like others did. If you have to run a leveling dungeon and get synced down, don't complain or cry for nerfs. That just speaks ill of your capabilities as a maxed level player.

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Originally Posted by Altena

It's not that low level dungeons need a nerf - more that "end game" dungeons (ie level capped tomestone dungeons) need a rather large buff in difficulty.

If people's concern is that farming tomes will end up taking longer - then scale tome rewards up with the difficulty.

Over the past number of expert roulette cycles, the dungeons have progressively become easier and easier.

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Man I miss the original Amdapor Keep and Pharos Sirius for that reason.

>obviously stupid suggestion
>OP only has 2 posts
>one of the tags is "dragoon sucks"

This is another troll thread isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Dameron

>obviously stupid suggestion
>OP only has 2 posts
>one of the tags is "dragoon sucks"

This is another troll thread isn't it?

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The intention of this post is to make a point out of something, and the "dragoon sucks" tag is meant to be a joke no more than that. Some enjoy argument.

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

Player skill, low as it is, will get even lower still.
Honestly, why does everyone always call for nerfs instead of trying to improve themselves?
Or is this another troll topic??

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I'd wager the majority of players in general are of like-mind though, including those who do perform well. MMORPGs (or games in general) used to be about earning your ability to speed through things, not believing yourself entitled to it. Give the wrong people too much power, and they won't even realize they're always wanting more.

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Originally Posted by Fomitsu

Here is me running lvl 50-60 dungeons in a flash (ofc with a good DPS) while doing low level dungeons takes double if not more time. New players, with the goal to reach their lvl 60(70 soon) friends, are relying on dungeons to level up (unless they discover Palace of the dead). So, can't the Dev boost players in-dungeons or lower mobs HP to fasten the process of leveling? Are their any negative effect if low level dungeons are nerfed?( e.g: story neglection..)

What do you think?

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No. It's bad enough that newer players get yelled at by belligerent raiders for not playing like an expert on day one. See every single thread about DPS by non-DPS roles.

How about SE does two things:

1) "Original Difficulty" mode, which level syncs and gear syncs to the minimum, no undersized parties. Completing the dungeon properly gives you a better reward than standard configuration, but no additional experience.

2) "Boss Rush" mode which you are instead timed by how fast you complete the dungeon's bosses solo. If you fail, you don't get another chance for any boss rush for 30 minutes. Only one boss rush per dungeon per day. Less efficient to farm tomes this way. No party mode. Boss HP scaled by level sync. Players can select what level/ilevel they want to play at just like levequests, and better rewards for clearing while synced lower.

You would never want to give EXP to anything other than the regular configuration of the dungeon, otherwise people will simply never play the regular configuration and not learn it at all.

Overall, if people are in a rush to level a job and don't want to play the old content, then this is the wrong game for them.

Nerfing leveling dungeons would simply create more players who don't know what to do, but think that they do because they did the leveling needed.

This game has so many fast ways to level including the upcoming jumpm potions, it's completely unnecessary to nerf existing leveling dungeons.

Like KisaiTenshi I'd really like to see level sync beefed up to be more of an "original difficulty" mode as well. It's funny, after running more higher level dungeons and content and getting used to the higher level skills and rotations, going back to something like Darkhold can be a bit jarring as you are reminded how you are supposed to play when you don't have all the 'big' skills. Perhaps making level sync closer to that original difficulty would help people improve by reminding/teaching players how to handle things without overgearing and without uber-skills.