So, I have been one of those players who have stayed faithful to a broken class... So with changes listed above for Gladiators, do you think that we'll finally have a chance to be reliable tanks?
I personally hope so, because it sad that in 1.19 Gla have the worst dmg, unreliable hate generation and a ridiculous amount of reliance on other classes.
Gladiator Changes (hopefully for the better)
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12-13-2011, 04:52 AMburitoslicerGladiator Changes (hopefully for the better)
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12-13-2011, 07:04 AMVelhart
It looks a lot better. It looks like the only class we really could benefit from is MRD. Also with JOB's coming out, we won't have to rely on other class abilities for party play.
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12-13-2011, 07:09 AMburitoslicerThats what I'm hoping on... Mix class combinations should be optional anyway, for some reason SE made it so that it is necessary. When jobs come to play I will be overjoyed that I can rely on just one classes abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
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12-13-2011, 07:25 AMOrophin
The big reasons Marauder were so popular in 1.19:
* Their WS's did so much more damage, equating more enmity
* Their main defensive mechanic, Parry, wasn't horribly broken like Block
It wasn't explicitly mentioned in the patch notes, but I sure hope they fixed block somehow. I still think Gladiator is still going to do piss for damage, but they have a combo for enmity up as well as a lot of their abilities generate enmity, so hopefully threat isn't as hard to establish and maintain. I do wonder though once a fight is on farm if Marauder might still be a better choice for tanking since they can output more damage which leads to a fight ending faster. -
12-13-2011, 07:44 AMburitoslicerA tank doesn't necessarily need to do top damage to keep enemy aggro, lets use WoW for example (I used to play Warrior tank), the warrior tanking spec never did a whole lot of damage, but they had high Enmity attacks that made up for the lack of damage. I'll be satisfied if AOE tanking becomes easier, and the Gla class has better damage mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orophin
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12-13-2011, 07:51 AMOrophinThat was the whole problem though; Gladiator didn't really have the tools at its disposal to spike its threat up really fast like Marauder could. Not to mention one of Marauder's WS's had enmity built into it. Riot Blade was the same more or less, but it did 25% of the damage Storm's Path did AND pacified you so you couldn't use any abilities after you used it. Marauder allowed parties to use WS's much sooner and more frequently without the fear of taking threat, therefore reducing the time it takes to clear the encounter.Quote:
Originally Posted by buritoslicer
I'm not saying Gladiator couldn't tank Ifrit. I did it once, but the difference in ease between using it and Marauder was like night and day. I prefer the sword and board tanking style myself and I really hope the class changes don't extremely favor any of the tanks more than the other. -
12-13-2011, 07:58 AMburitoslicerExactly what I have been dealing with, I have the hardest time with Ifrit just because of the broken aspect of being a Gladiator. Also the fact that when the Gladiator dies, it's near impossible to get threat back. If SE can make it to where a Gladiator doesn't do a whole bunch of damage, but has high emnity attacks, I will be 100% satisfied with the direction they are going!Quote:
Originally Posted by Orophin
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12-13-2011, 08:03 AMOrophinDon't feel bad about that, that's any tank really. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by buritoslicer
Amen! I don't care if Gladiators don't do much damage. I just want them to be able to hold threat with as little effort as the other tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by buritoslicer
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12-13-2011, 08:59 AMkro
The new skillset definitely seems like it would make Gladiator useful again. Just in terms of AoE tanking:
GLA gets
-Flash: AoE enmity generation and blind on 30 sec recast
-War Drum: the new AoE Phalanx on 60 sec recast
MRD gets
-Whirlwind: Most likely the new Storm's Path on 80 sec recast (ouch)
Both classes can use Rampart for the massive AoE hate spike, but only GLA can extend the defense bonus to other classes. Even if MRD still manages to hold hate via pure damage output, at least GLA can contribute with the passive defense bonus from Rampart and the blinds from Flash.
The more likely case is that in a typical Stronghold party, GLA will be the one holding hate at the start with Flash while MRD takes it in the end after Whirlwind because it seems like it will actually take some time to build 3k TP now. -
12-13-2011, 09:06 AMburitoslicerIf a Gla can get to the point to be competitive over emnity with Mar, I think that will be the proper point. We also need to take into account that GLA will have higher health and Mana pools for better self sufficient heals and abilities. Let's hope this patch get's GLA back in the game!Quote:
Originally Posted by kro
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12-13-2011, 09:13 AMzaviermhigo
I think the tanking revisions should of favored gladiator more, MRD can tank and dd, GLA can tank. They only have one role, so the fact that they refuse to make it the main tank is ridiculous, until they add GLA dd which would also be ridiculous.
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12-13-2011, 11:51 AMKiara
Hi All,
They also added in new Gladiator Equipment with +Parry bonuses, so hopefully that's SE indirectly telling us that they restored Parry for Gladiators. :)
Lominsan Shortsword Unique Untradable Gladiator’s Arm
Requires GLA
Required Level 40 Damage: 59 Delay: 2.5
Accuracy: +8
Parry: +5
Lominsan Baselard Unique Untradable Gladiator’s Arm
Requires GLA
Required Level 50 Damage: 86 Delay: 2.4
Crit Rate: +10
Parry: +10
etc. -
12-13-2011, 12:58 PMburitoslicerhehe seems like an idea...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiara
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12-13-2011, 03:29 PMVanguard319Don't forget MND being a useful stat for gla, (dmg and heal potency) so those heals will last a little bit better too :3Quote:
Originally Posted by buritoslicer
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12-13-2011, 07:48 PMTman
i'm curious to see the new builds that come out, if any. seeing as how elemental alignment has changed, some attacks can now be blocked or evaded, perhaps stacking evasion will play out better? or perhaps block got enough love to compete as a tanking stat.
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12-13-2011, 08:14 PMClaire_Pendragon
Until Flash becomes an AoE, holding hate is going to be really hard for both classes.
Whirlwind isnt until upper 40s, and that means most people are only going to hold hate one 1 target until the upper levels...
:/
And honestly, holding hate with just Circle slash and Brandish at 30 (2 extra swings to get tp) was fine for both MRD and GLA. (Unless you only used 1 or the other) -
12-14-2011, 12:48 AMsyntaxlies
my favorite glad changes
rampart now generate enmity and has 2 min cool down instead of 5 min
aegis boon guaranteed block all blocked damage turns to HP
flash-enmity skill + enhanced flash turns it aoe and causes blind
outmaneuver generates Tp now also
war drum deals damage also now -
12-14-2011, 02:59 AMburitosliceryeah, I saw that... It was interesting that they are breaking the common str= more dmg mold. I like it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanguard319
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12-14-2011, 03:03 AMburitoslicerHolding hate for a Gla was never fine with just circle slash and the rest of the moves, it was soo darn broken that a Mrd in the group could easily break hate if he chose to do so... I'm going to imagine most of the changes to Gla were solely for end game in mind... because at the current state of Gla, we are completely broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon
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12-14-2011, 06:09 AMFiosha_Maureiba
Circle Slash usually didn't cut it for me. Had to Provoke and Taunt to take aggro from a damage dealer. Against a Curaga, I resigned myself to using Cover on the healer instead.
On the Marauder side, Storm's Path dealt good damage to a wide area of enemies on a short cooldown. Broad Swing and Full Swing let me rack up the TP to hit the skill down again. Brandish could fill in the gap if needed. Holding enmity, dealing good chunks of damage, high HP, life was unbalanced.
Started mentioning another mmorpg about balance, removed.
Highly looking forward to the new Gladiator and hoping to make it work! -
12-14-2011, 07:12 AMburitoslicerYeah, I'm hoping so too... I'm one of the few Gladiator enthusiasts :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba
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12-14-2011, 08:26 AMNanaya
The problem with Gladiator was it's basically the poor man's FFXI Paladin. It does well enough against a single target, but this is FFXIV, a game where roaming parties are pretty much the only way to exp, and fighting several different mobs at once. We get very little in terms of viable AoE tools, War Drum wasn't all that effective, Circle Slash is garbage, they utterly destroyed the blocking system to being trivial, Warmonger is weaker than on MRD, the list goes on for days.
Whereas with MRD, they have a wide array of AoE abilities and weaponskills, Storm's Path alone could allow you to tank for most fights, pretty good defense, and far from terrible HP. I really would love to hear the dev's reasoning behind the changes to these two jobs in 1.19, and how someone didn't stand up and say, "...wait, isn't this terribly unbalanced?"
Regardless, the "Oh shit, let's rectify our mistakes yet again" patch that's coming up looks fairly promising for Gladiator. Enmity should no longer be an issue, even with a large group of enemies, and defense seems to be beefed up even. I am only curious as to if they fixed blocking, that will make or break the job. If you use an ability like Deflection, you damn well better be getting at least a 50% proc rate on it. -
12-14-2011, 08:31 AMkroThis part bothers me a bit. As the main tank class, GLA should be pumping VIT. However, only MRD gets the bonus to AA damage from VIT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanguard319
Is it really worth pumping MND for a little AA damage and a better Cure?
Pumping STR seems to be the better option since that increases AA damage as well as adding bits of attack and improving WS damage.
Maybe pumping MND will be better than STR once we get Paladin, but until then I don't think it is worth it. -
12-14-2011, 11:22 AMburitoslicerBecause of this I'm a bit concerned about my point allotments.... I am uneasy on spending my points in 1.20, especially with the fact that you can't reverse it yet. : /Quote:
Originally Posted by kro
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12-14-2011, 11:24 AMburitoslicerI really hope we can finally block properly again... It's completely ridiculous how it is now... My shield is useless!Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanaya
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12-15-2011, 02:29 AMKiaraHi kro,Quote:
Originally Posted by kro
Some great points. I was thinking that myself.
And don't forget DEX (helps with Accuracy, Block Rate and Parry), so there's 4 stats (STR, VIT, DEX, MND) that potentially can really help Gladiator. It'll be interesting to see everyone's tests and findings on how effective each stat boost is for Gladiator. -
12-15-2011, 02:41 AMPhysic
i dunno, unless im missing something, mrd basically lost its aoe strength, no access to AOE tp gaining moves, and slower tp in general for the one tp move that has aoe now. Soooo the only people with decent aoe options are maybe lnc and thm. if this is accurate then that alone makes gld better at taking multiple monsters. But since so much is going on at once, i guess we ll see in a couple days.
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12-15-2011, 03:02 AMburitoslicerIt's gonna be difficult for me to figure out my point allotments.... I'm definitely going to be scratching my head for a good hour or two :SQuote:
Originally Posted by Kiara
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12-15-2011, 05:32 AMOrophinSame here. I get the feeling Gladiator is still going to hit like a wet paper sack and won't rely on pure damage so much for tanking, so I may just split my points between VIT and DEX for survivability.Quote:
Originally Posted by buritoslicer
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12-15-2011, 05:35 AMburitoslicerI'm thinking VIT primarily, some dex and then if I feel comfortable with it some MNDQuote:
Originally Posted by Orophin
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12-16-2011, 09:42 PMThugHunter
MRD looks shit now :) was in a party with a friend last night after the patch, admittedly neither of us had statted our characters yet, but i held the hate no problem, since they have basically lost their AOE ability, its hard for a MRD to pull hate of a good tank, he was provokeing and flashing the mobs and they didn't turn.
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12-17-2011, 02:44 AMAndriennice. since the tank is doing an awesome job, thats when DD should go buck wild and unleash fury onto the enemyQuote:
Originally Posted by ThugHunter
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12-17-2011, 02:59 AMKiara
Hi All,
I can confirm Gladiator still can't Parry with Shield equipped. :(
I can't believe they added new GLA equipment with +Parry. So sad. -
12-17-2011, 04:47 AMburitosliceryeah... it's depressing.... but still Gla did get some pretty good improvements... I'm happy thats for sure!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiara
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12-17-2011, 04:55 AMOrophin
I kinda want to do some parsing to see how much block is kicking in. It's really hard to view it in my log even with a bunch of filters on. It would be nice if Phalanx/War Drum lit up only after a block...
I'm not sure if Phalanx is anymore useful than before. I tend to work more towards keeping enough TP to do the Fast Blade>Flat Blade combo that I don't think much about using it.
I am pleased with the changes overall though. Flash is pretty awesome for group tanking and War Drum helps further solidify threat. The big MP boost allows me to use Cure more often if I need a self heal and Bloodbath/Second Wind are on cooldown. Sucks to hear about Parry not working though. I guess I should find something to replace the MRD ability with. -
12-17-2011, 05:26 AMkro
Yeah, Phalanx doesn't even have the enmity bonus associated with it anymore. War Drum is also really weak in terms of damage.
Shield Bash is amazing though. Basically a free stun every 30 sec for no cost.
Also, I find it tough make use of GLA's combos. Both Riot Blade and Goring Blade require us to be behind the mob to take advantage of it. It's possible to start a combo, then Shield Bash and reposition to finish it. However, this doesn't always work.
Since I usually have to tank or solo, the best combo is usually just Fast Blade > Flat Blade. Kind of disappointing...
Doing the solo company leves (Halatali if you're from Uldah) is a good place to test out battle-related things since you can easily control the level of the mob. After trying to clear each of them with various classes at R50, I can safely say that GLA's damage output is practically nonexistant relative to every other class as expected. -
12-17-2011, 08:24 AMClaire_Pendragon
If ur playing solo, just run Through the enemy, and use the WS quickly, and u'll land the attack from behind just fine.
I've been doing it before with blindside, and now with side/back attack requirements.
My real question is, is MRD main tanking still reasonable?
Because I really enjoyed it before, and now it looks boring. (If even possible) -
12-18-2011, 05:47 PMkro
MRD can definitely hold hate on single targets still. Damage is quite a bit better than GLA. The thing is that MRD's survivability is now significantly lower.
The attack debuff on Provoke isn't very noticeable, the increase in recast timers for Foresight and Featherfoot hurts, and the lower WS spike damage leaves you with a weaker Bloodbath. Sentinel is also 20% weaker on MRD than it was before and they also have about 700 less MP than a GLA. Rampage makes it so that they can only receive benefits when they straight-tank. Kiting is out of the question.
I think MRD is much better suited as an offtank now. It's great for picking off moogles and tanking them for the DDs to burn down.
Meanwhile, GLA has Aegis Boon on a 45 sec timer. This is an amazing ability. Against Ifrit for example, it can nullify the damage from a swipe and heal you for 700 dmg. That's more than Second Wind. Aegis can also block weapon skills.
Goring Blade and Riot Blade both do decent spike damage so GLA actually gets just as much use out of Bloodbath as MRD.
Only a GLA's flash can blind the enemy. Works much like FFXI's flash but is AoE and costs 0 mp - making it essential for kiting moogles.