How can people justify Hraesvelgr's actions?! [spoilers]

So I was on twitter and I came across someone talking about how great this dragon is. A debate ensued and they continually tried to justify him giving his eye to Nidhogg. I'm honestly baffled and to be frank, really frustrated by this.

In my eyes Hraesvelgr is evil. I need an argument other than "nobody's perfect" that exonerates him from the following

1. Giving Nidhogg his eye
2. Concealing the truth from his kin and the warrior of light
3. doing nothing as Nidhogg caused endless suffering
4. only stepping in 'after' his father reprimanded him

So my interpretation. Hraesvelgr was more saddened/depressed by the humans turning on Ratatoskr then enraged as Nidhogg was. Hraes may have even felt responsible, as it was his relationship with Shiva that allowed the humans to be as close as they were. So now he's lost a sister, possibly blames himself, and his brother is dying before him. He gives up part of himself so that he doesnt have to literally watch another family member die. Nidhogg never trusted the humans to begin with, and having now been betrayed and basically murdered he isnt ever really going to listen to reason. Depression potentially leads Hraes to withdraw(or possibly the calming influence of Shiva? shes long dead by now but didnt they entwine souls or something?). Does telling the rest of the story help anyone? The warrior of light still had to defeat Nidhogg, regardless of whos eye was keeping him alive. And ultimately, Hraes was mad about what happened to Rata too. Only his desire not to break a promise to Shiva kept him from assaulting Ishgard himself for all those years. And having just rewatched the pre-Sohr Kai scene... Midgardsormrs "reprimand" was merely pointing out that we hoped to to save our friend and end the whole thing, plus a reminder that the thing flying around making havoc at that point wasnt actually Nidhogg but rather a manifestation of his rage overwhelming the form of some human.

So yes, great dragon. And i mean that in the sense that its a great character. A flawed character(as most great ones are), but with a powerful story to tell and more going on beneath the surface then might first appear.

He's a problematic character, but there's a ways to go before saying he's evil. Yes, he never condemned it and didn't stop Nidhogg. But I think that calling him "evil" is a black-and-white way to see it, especially given that the narrative is from Ishgard's point of view, for the most part. It was Ishgard who murdered his sister and it was Ishgard who now more or less murdered his brother and it is Ishgard that later on turned his beloved Shiva into a 'heretic' and murdered anyone who tried to follow her teaching. For him to not join in the slaughter is already more than you could've asked out of him under any circumstances, and you're actually missing the important thing - he did stop. He did change his ways. He did stand up to Nidhogg and helped you. It wasn't just because 'daddy' berated him, it was because you have proven yourself as a human being and gave him hope for your race again - a race that, again, performed horrible atrocities against his.

I can't really. As a person he is going to be hard to forgive for me. In fact in the end even him giving us the power of his eye didn't really make up for the mistakes he made. But, I think that is why he is such an interesting character. He is broken. He has flaws. He made a huge mistake and handled it in such the wrong way. He will go down as perhaps one of the more interesting characters in the lore for me because he has messed up. It makes it so we can relate to him more. None of us has messed up like him, but we have all made mistakes in our lives. It is good to see that such a being that is suppose to be wiser and smarter then any of us due to his long life is just as flawed and messed up as the rest of us.

It's a plot with a twist. There is more to it and in order to understand teh situation a person must have an open mind. Seeing it through the eyes of Nidhogg it makes sense. Now keep in mind that Hraesvelgr's actions were influenced by Nidhoggs words and steered his emotions to corruption. Eventually his actions were brought to light as the story progressed which really kept me entertained. For me the saying, blood is thinker than water comes to mind, we have to however remember that blood only makes it easier to drown when betrayed.

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

A debate ensued and they continually tried to justify him giving his eye to Nidhogg.

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While I'm baffled that some will try to justify this particular action (rather than simply understanding and discussing the character's motivations behind it, which is of course different) as if it was the right thing to do, and while I don't I don't think he can be fully exonerated from the listed actions (though as mentioned, the stepping in motivation was more complex than just being reprimanded by Midgardsormr), I don't think he's evil either.

Tragic and broken, which lead to him being one of the catalysts for the ongoing actions of Nidhogg, and thus at least partially responsible, but he's not an evil character.

While I don't think Hraesvelgr's actions are justified, it's easy enough to understand why he did what he did.

He is torn between his love for his siblings (both Ratatoskr and Nidhogg were killed by Thordan and his Knights Twelve, though the latter is somewhat metaphorical) and his love and vow to Saint Shiva. This makes Hraesvelgr a very pitiable character because he doesn't know what to do about the situation - he swore never to go against mortals, but they grievously wronged him. By the time you meet Hraesvelgr he's very broken, and it's not until he gets some therapy from Alphinaud, Aymeric, Midgardsormr, and you that he's able to overcome his despair and acknowledge what Nidhogg (now little more than a vengeful phantasm possessing Estinien) is doing, and has done, is wrong, spurring him into action for the Final Steps of Faith. (A thematically appropriate name.)

Hraesvelgr is indirectly responsible for the Dragonsong War, this much is true, but like Nidhogg he was very hurt by Ishgard's betrayal - made even worse by the fact Thordan and his Knights Twelve metaphorically killed Nidhogg as well - yet unable to do anything about it because of his vow to Shiva. Though his actions are wrong, this makes him pitiable, and he does nothing to antagonize the party aside from dismiss their criticism of his saving Nidhogg's life despite knowing his brother would begin what became known as the Dragonsong War. His action aren't justified, but they are understandable.

It's justified in that Hraesvelgr isn't a human living in the real world and conforming to the laws, morals and other relevant standards that are applicable to our world and culture(s). He's part of an ancient race in a fictional setting - and from his perspective he believes himself justified. Are some of his actions pretty shady in regards to both real world standards and the standards of Hydaelyn? Certainly - but it's much more nuanced than that since he wasn't acting out of pure spite, but rather grief and rage.

1. To be fair, when Hraesvelgr gave Nidhogg his eye, Ratatoskr had just been killed and Nidhogg had lost his own eyes to Ratatoskr's murderers. Honestly I don't blame him for saving his brother over a group of humans who had just inflicted a massive betrayal to dragonkind. That pretty much killed his faith in mortals. As he said himself, the only reason he didn't join in revenge was the soothing influence of Shiva.

2. Hraesvelgr didn't owe us anything. We came to him asking for help. Iceheart would have been dead if not for his benevolence. There is nothing to indicate he hid the truth from his brood and honestly I suspect most of them would have approved of his decision to save his kin over a bunch of betrayers.

3. Hraesvelgr lost his faith in mortals. This was hardly the first time dragonkind had been brutally treated my mortal kind and both cases are living memory to Hraesvelgr. He wasn't going to help Nidhogg but it wasn't his responsibility to save humans from to his mind the consequences of their ancestor's actions. It wasn't his war and frankly humans didn't seem worth going to war with is brother to aid.

4. Midgarsormr didn't reprimand him. Hraesvelgr reconsidered not because he felt guilt but because the WoL wasn't fighting to kill Nidhogg. They was fighting to save Estinien. That is what made the difference. It wasn't about a 1000 year war. It was about saving a friend. Hraesvelgr respected that. That plus Iceheart's last words to him was enough to make him consider, after 1000 years, giving humans another chance. Giving Shiva's people and his brood peace.

Hraesvelgr wasn't responsible for protecting people from Nidhogg, particularly a race that had a history of bad relations with his kind. Saving his brother was perfectly fine. His brother had acted to claim justice for his murdered sister and had almost died for it. His brother became later twisted by his rage but again that wasn't Hraesvelgr's responsibility. Were mortals really worth fighting his own family for? Don't forget Midgardsormr said Ishgard's sin had earned their fate when we first met him.

As an aside, part of the reason as to why Nidhogg and Hraesvelgr were so affected by Ishgard's betrayal is due to how long lived they are. We can assume that they're basically immortal - and so whilst they could have lived in peace alongside the Ishgardians they'd lost someone they cared about deeply. Not only that, but the cycle of hatred led to even more of their people being slaughtered. The primary motive, though, is that Hraesvelgr lost a sister and was basically living a life of sorrow and misery as he had also lost a brother to extreme grief and rage. Being so long lived without the individuals one cares most about in the world at one's side isn't exactly a thrilling experience. There's almost always two sides to every conflict and each believe themselves to be justified from their perspective - and often are, to some extent. In a setting such as this, it is exceptionally rare for individuals or organisations to be doing things for the sake of being as evil as possible.

I am quite sure that people would react quite a lot like him if they lose a family member. Also lets not forget that, like Theordric already said, they have quite the long life thus losing someone hurts even more. We also cant forget that the dragons and humans made peace with each other and yet it was the humans that betrayed the dragon. I would see him different if the dragons did the first step but even Nidhogg, who never trusted the humans did not attack until they were betrayed by having their sister killed.

Also I am not sure that he knew that Nidhogg would keep this war going for so long. He may have thought that his brother will simply kill them all and be done with it (which is not really the right way but its understandable). He might not have foreseen that this would go over so long thus maybe over the time he came to the realization that he made a grave mistake. Yet still being sad over his sisters death and at the same time maybe even feeling guilty for giving his brother his eye he could have gone in a even deeper depression thus rendering him into doing nothing at all.

In the end I find both dragons to be quite tragic even if their actions, especially Nidhoggs are not morally correct.

The only dragon that I would really like to have a word with is their Father..he is really not the best father in the world. His direct children are killed of, consumed by grief or rage and he does nothing. Yes he is the keeper of the lake but really I cant accept that he would not have found some way to talk to them. I mean he could create a mini-dragon out of his corpse.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

snip.

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I'd add that if Hraesvelgr did anything, he'd lose Nidhogg, who for all his actions was still his brother. It's not until we showed him that humans had potential that he decided keeping family wasn't worth it.

As for Midgardsormr, I'm not sure how all knowing he is. Even if he were, not only would he be too late to act, but he chose to join in the chorus when you talk to him at the end of the dungeon. Why should he do anything but support Nidhogg's revenge against those who killed his children? All he ever promised was that he wouldn't directly hurt you.

Like most of the dragons I met in HW Hraesvelgr deserved a gigantic boot up his scaly backside. I grew pretty sick of the dragons' bleating about how the sins of 1000 years ago are as fresh to them as if they happened yesterday. as if that excused what they had been doing for 1000 years to people wholly innocent of the crime.

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Originally Posted by Confidence_Trick

Like most of the dragons I met in HW Hraesvelgr deserved a gigantic boot up his scaly backside. I grew pretty sick of the dragons' bleating about how the sins of 1000 years ago are as fresh to them as if they happened yesterday. as if that excused what they had been doing for 1000 years to people wholly innocent of the crime.

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Still wasn't his responsibility to save them. He was burned out on mortals at that point. He had put his trust in them and they had betrayed the dragons. Again. Just to give context, Ratatoskr was probably the most pro human of the dragons trusting them more than probably even Hraesvelgr. He just wanted nothing to do with them.

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Originally Posted by Confidence_Trick

Like most of the dragons I met in HW Hraesvelgr deserved a gigantic boot up his scaly backside. I grew pretty sick of the dragons' bleating about how the sins of 1000 years ago are as fresh to them as if they happened yesterday. as if that excused what they had been doing for 1000 years to people wholly innocent of the crime.

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A dragon's sense of time is dramatically different from a man's. They hibernate for a time, the time they spend active could be short, they probably don't bother to keep track of time (which is understandable, they don't got clocks); there is also the fact that near-immortal beings, such as dragons, value things differently than mortals.

And at the point of Heavensward, it's just an excuse for both sides; Nidhogg has his thing, but many of his underlings were born and died in the war, losing loved ones (also including the heretics, whom were oppressed by Ishgard for one reason or another), and some still do, although at a reduced enough rate that Ishgard can bother to focus on other things. They probably held up the betrayal of Ratasoktr in the same way Thordan and his church did, a self-righteous goal truly fueled by a cycle of vengeance between the two sides; note that until recently, just talking or being 'friendly' with a dragon meant you got thrown over a cliff. And I presume Nidhogg's brood didn't mind ripping up dragons who would openly disagree with the war.

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

So I was on twitter and I came across someone talking about how great this dragon is. A debate ensued and they continually tried to justify him giving his eye to Nidhogg. I'm honestly baffled and to be frank, really frustrated by this.

In my eyes Hraesvelgr is evil. I need an argument other than "nobody's perfect" that exonerates him from the following

1. Giving Nidhogg his eye
2. Concealing the truth from his kin and the warrior of light
3. doing nothing as Nidhogg caused endless suffering
4. only stepping in 'after' his father reprimanded him

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In what what way was giving Nidhogg his eye wrong?
He did it to save his brother who had just been grievously wounded by the same traitors and murderers who had killed his sister.

Concealing what truth? His kin probably did know what had happened in the past, and he had no obligation to volunteer any information to the WoL.

Why should he have done anything? He was also quite righteously pissed off at the Ishgardians for killing Ratatoskr and never even acknowledging that they did anything wrong. The only way he could have stopped Nidhogg was by fighting and killing Nidhogg, and he certainly did not want to kill his own brother.

It was not so much a reprimand as a reminder that by that time Nidhogg was actually already dead. What remained was just a shade formed from his rage.

Evil is definitely too strong a word to use. As others have said, flawed is a much better choice. Hraes made some bad decisions, and turned a blind eye to the consequences. Irresponsible, yes. Evil, no.

The guy was already reeling from the death of his lover when a group of humans slaughtered his sister. His brother comes crawling blind asking for aid in getting vengeance on her murderers, it's not unreasonable to expect that he'd help him out.

The irresponsible part comes in letting Nidhogg ride roughshod over Ishgard for another thousand years after all those murderers are already dead - but then the choice basically boils down to choosing between the welfare of a bunch of strangers he doesn't care about and the welfare of his misguided brother. I doubt there are many human beings who would be eager to kill a sibling to protect a bunch of strangers, even if it would be justified to do so.

Getting Hraesvalgr to acknowledge, both to the WoL and to himself, that his idleness was the wrong thing to do, is a fantastic bit of character development, and lead to the dragon being one of the most interestingly nuanced characters in the expansion.

Keep in mind a thousand years to them is probably more like 10 to mortals. Hraesvelgr, Nidhogg, Ratatoskr, Bahamut, and Tiamat are all siblings of the same clutch. Tiamat was imprisoned in the allaghan era, as was bahamut killed and his soul imprisoned and revived them. And the allaghans have been dead long before the ishgardians were even a people. Its quite possible they knew Sophia/Zurvan/Sephirot and their peoples before the Allags cane to them. Its very possible they are way over 10k years old. Midgard regards Hydaelyn almost like a sister or a friend, as hes probably the oldest entity around short of her. And hes not even originally from Hydaelyn either. Also, the Ishgardians have been lying to and assassinating their own people just to perpetuate the war they started to gain power cheaply with beings far beyond them in power.

Also Isgardian royalty are the originators of the Heretics by right, and by modern standard all native ishgardians are heretics as well. This is mentioned in that the reason for the murder of Ratatoskr, was to eat her and gain her power, with the most dense concentration being her eyes.

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Originally Posted by Confidence_Trick

Like most of the dragons I met in HW Hraesvelgr deserved a gigantic boot up his scaly backside. I grew pretty sick of the dragons' bleating about how the sins of 1000 years ago are as fresh to them as if they happened yesterday. as if that excused what they had been doing for 1000 years to people wholly innocent of the crime.

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You act like ishgard said sorry or anything they buried the past and hide it for 1000 years for the dragons this did really happen yesterday most were alive when it happened. and for all of nidhogg's hatred of man he only picked on ishgard never once messing with any other group of people. He should of just killed them all at the time or maybe 50 years later enough to sleep off his wounds and he'd of been completely in the right.

1. Giving Nidhogg his eye.
Nidhogg was dying, and aside from the fact Hraes would be facing the loss of a Brood Brother on top of recently losing a Brood Sister, there's also the fact he probably felt some guilt and responsibility for his stance on advocating cohabitation with mortals. I'd say this was a case of Nidhogg taking advantage of Hraes's grief.

2. Concealing the truth from his kin and the warrior of light.
I don't feel like this was concealed at all though. When the Warrior of Light first met him, Hraes shared with him the vision of the past. All of his children were quite aware as well, all dragons were.

3. Doing nothing as Nidhogg caused endless suffering.
What was he supposed to do? Nidhogg's children are Nidhogg's responsibility and he has no right to tell them not to throw away their lives for revenge. Was he supposed to have his own go to the defense of those who killed his sister? Those who had killed her to steal her eyes for power? It'd have been wrong to trust them.

4. Only stepping in 'after' his father reprimanded him.
I don't think Midgardsormr reprimanded Hraes so much as, gave him permission to do as he felt was right. The actions of Ishgard to make amends for the transgressions of their forefathers, their resolve, their desire for peace, seemed to do as much to move Hraes to take action most unconscionable for dragonkind; to turn on his own. Its not just that either. For two wyrms of the first brood to engage in war against one another would be a massive, ground-shaking thing for dragons. I think for Hraes he was able to justify it at last because Nidhogg was no longer truly Nidhogg. He had become something malignant and twisted that would do more harm to all, dragon and man alike, like a primal.

I think it was pretty big of Hraesvelgr to help us, I wouldn't fight my brother to save my sisters murderers.