UPDATE: To everyone who wrote their name for my WHM petition.

Where do I even begin?

I started a thread in the hope that the SE dev team would see and would listen and hear all of us who are quite frustrated by the current WHM changes. It got over 60+ signatures in less than 24hours, over 2000+views and made and stayed on the first forum page.

Well... I'm sorry to say but it looks like they did see it and at first, I thought it was delete since I couldn't access the link (Invalid Forum Top specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator) but now, it got closed.

So.. thanks, SE! For listening and hearing us out! :) <-Sarcastic.

I never thought I would ever unsubscribe from this wonderful game whom I've met a lot of great people. But after this.. I just might.

PS: I checked the forum rules. It doesn't say ANYWHERE that we aren't allowed to start a friendly petition. Just saying!!

To my knowledge they have always closed petitions. This thread will probably also be closed for referencing a closed thread.

Pretty sure it didn't break any forum rules (after reading them) unless they're being pretty uppity about being criticized, since we ARE criticizing their work.

Their work on Whm is horrible and rushed and seems very last minute.

It's so awful, I'm playing the most horrible, soul crushing game.... Dark Souls II and will follow up with III instead of FFXIV.

Yeah... that's how bad your mistakes are.

Your petition shouldn't have been closed, period.

#MakeWhmGreatAgain

It looks like they're trying to consolidate all the WHM discussion into one topic.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

To my knowledge they have always closed petitions. This thread will probably also be closed for referencing a closed thread.

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Then perhaps they should add it in the rules. I check and re-check the rules over and over before starting the Petition thread just in case, because I didn't want to get in trouble. The word "petition' is nowhere to be found. If it were to get out of hands (say by calling people names etc,) then I would understand... but it wasn't the case. It stayed friendly and ALL OF US just wanted our voices heard.

But we got shut down instead.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

It looks like they're trying to consolidate all the WHM discussion into one topic.

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But my thread wasn't a discussion thread.. I made that very clear, on the first post. It was petition with only the names of people who disagree with the current changes made to WHM. They didn't "move" my thread, they closed it.

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Originally Posted by Asunna

Then perhaps they should add it in the rules. I check and re-check the rules over and over before starting the Petition thread just in case, because I didn't want to get in trouble. The word "petition' is nowhere to be found. If it were to get out of hands (say by calling people names etc,) then I would understand... but it wasn't the case. It stayed friendly and ALL OF US just wanted our voices heard.

But we got shut down instead.

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Well, I think at the end of the day there's probably some ruling in there that they retain the right to delete whatever they want. It sucks that your thread got deleted, but it's not like you lost more than a few minutes of your time creating it. I don't think it was meant to squelch your voices in particular, but they do tend to take down Petitions because they tend to not really invoke too much discussion and instead are constantly bumped to the top. I think their view would be forums are for discussion, and not a perma-bumped name spam.

Edit: Plus I think it woulld be very difficult to create a Rules page that consists of everything they individually would consider against the rules, so odds are Petitions are just under the umbrella effect of their right to delete whatever.

I think SE knows by now that the WHM player base isn't happy. A petition to that fact probably seemed a bit superfluous.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I think SE knows by now that the WHM player base isn't happy. A petition to that fact probably seemed a bit superfluous.

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Haven't heard anything about WHM changes (yet). However, doing superfluous things such as a petition, helps. A lot of people might not be comfortable sharing their thoughts or might just be tired of such discussions. If you agree with [insert statement here], writing your name is a lot easier (and faster).

The petition shouldn't have been closed. It was the most restrained thread on here. They deleted the thread I posted this morning about cancelling my pre-order of the Stormblood expansion, too.

Shame, I only really loved healing on SCH because of its versatility with dps but now why even bother wasting my time doing so little damage and stacks with bane but yay single target? Lilies are a joke, and folks who can't see that are... Blissful... I dislike AST healing so I guess my choices are suffer through incompetent healers as I play my tank, suffer through incompetent healers AND q times on dps, or just unsub and go have fun somewhere else. Those are my choices that SE have given me and it's a sad sad day.

But don't worry guys we didn't get a new healer or tank in expansion because they wanted to balance the jobs they already had... Did Neegan and Lucille start with Whm which wore them out then move on to SCH for a few love taps?

It's common practice to consolidate similar thread discussions into one larger thread(Very common on the jp jorums). From a customer service perspective your thoughts and concerns for your chosen class should be taken seriously, however writing out an ultimatum half hearted threat of canceling your sub to justify your claim is in my eyes childish. Change this or else attitude needs to stop, no wonder SE doesn't take NA seriously, at times we behave like spoiled children.

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Originally Posted by Donaria

Change this or else attitude needs to stop, no wonder SE doesn't take NA seriously, at times we behave like spoiled children.

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Without showing frustration nothing would change anytime soon. You don't balance games by destroying one job and maiming another while making a third even better. If no one vents or complains we would have to wait far too long and would eventually quit. I'm choosing option a/b for the time being because I can be effective and carry groups with my healing and tanking on PLD. Res should help plenty with said incompetent healers on my RDM so I'll be able to do more but make no mistake two of the three healers are getting screwed badly (one more than the other) and this is when they were supposed to be balancing the game.

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Originally Posted by Donaria

From a customer service perspective your thoughts and concerns for your chosen class should be taken seriously, however writing out an ultimatum half hearted threat of canceling your sub to justify your claim is in my eyes childish

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Is it? How many times do people call up companies and go "oh I'm going to switch unless you lower my bill or give me this". All the damn time.

SE did something VERY VERY wrong here. And if people are so upset about these changes that they are rethinking about pre-ordering their new expansion and/or cancelling their sub, they need to hear that. Why? Losing subs and not selling expansions hurts their livelihood.

And you better believe that last thing I want to hear is "please wait for it".

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Originally Posted by Seraphyna

Is it? How many times do people call up companies and go "oh I'm going to switch unless you lower my bill or give me this". All the damn time.

SE did something VERY VERY wrong here. And if people are so upset about these changes that they are rethinking about pre-ordering their new expansion and/or cancelling their sub, they need to hear that. Why? Losing subs and not selling expansions hurts their livelihood.

And you better believe that last thing I want to hear is "please wait for it".

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That's a very *American* mentality to throw a tantrum and threaten to pull out if you don't get your way. You don't see that kind of childish behavior over on the JP side of the forum, where they're actually very civilized and constructive, mature even.

If I go into my bosses office and tell him I feel something is very wrong with the company, he will tell me to get the fuck out of his office. Why? Because he has better things to do with his time than listen to a rant. Now if I come with a possible solution along with what I find positive, he'll be all ears.

Mods get moderated too. And if they are deleting threads that don't go against to ToS simply because they don't like it or disagree, it can, and should be addressed.


But yes, those who are doing nothing but whining and threatening to leave the game are very likely being shrugged off. I wouldn't listen to it either.

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Originally Posted by dark494

That's a very *American* mentality to throw a tantrum and threaten to pull out if you don't get your way. You don't see that kind of childish behavior over on the JP side of the forum, where they're actually very civilized and constructive, mature even.

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First of all that's pretty racist actually. Second when did it become bad to pay for something you don't want?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

But yes, those who are doing nothing but whining and threatening to leave the game are very likely being shrugged off. I wouldn't listen to it either.

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SE isn't my or your boss, they're attempting to sell you a product. Those are two extraordinarily different relationships. Also if your advice involves telling your boss to ignore your customers it's no wonder he's telling you to get out.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

First of all that's pretty racist actually. Second when did it become bad to pay for something you don't want?

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a) Americans aren't a race.
b) No one is suggesting you pay for something you don't want but effectively threatening to hold your breath until you get what you want is something a toddler does.. not an adult.

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Originally Posted by joannaluttrell

a) Americans aren't a race.
b) No one is suggesting you pay for something you don't want but effectively threatening to hold your breath until you get what you want is something a toddler does.. not an adult.

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It was directly compared to a race. If you don't like that though then prejudiced. That said lets see someone posts a thread about how they don't like the changes or direction of the game and are planning to leave. Person B contributes nothing but insulting them by calling them childish, immature, and saying they're throwing a temper tantrum. Who's the immature one again?

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Originally Posted by joannaluttrell

a) Americans aren't a race.

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From a pre-phenotypally-based definition of "race", meaning a group of shared cultural norms and characteristics, it would be. But I guess the word "race" got (modern) "racist" since then? Given that the characteristic being pointed out was being tied to the image of that particular nationality, which, again, to hold any sort of logic would have to be significantly shared culture or "race", the response seems... accurate, if pointless.

On topic:
Whatever the tone of either thread, neither technically broke any forum rules. Thus I can only hold the conclusion that they should not have been closed.

Actually:

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Originally Posted by Gildrein

The purpose of this forum is for players to hold discussions on Healer roles and its tactics with other players.

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Posting content that does not follow the theme of the category or thread.

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A petition is neither a discussion nor the purpose of the forum. If they really did intend to mute the community for throwing a tantrum, they would have deleted all the "feedback" instead. Rather than that, they enforced:

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Posting a number of posts with the same content.

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Source: http://support.eu.square-enix.com/ru...la=2&tag=forum

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Originally Posted by dark494

That's a very *American* mentality to throw a tantrum and threaten to pull out if you don't get your way. You don't see that kind of childish behavior over on the JP side of the forum, where they're actually very civilized and constructive, mature even.

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It's called supply and demand. What SE is supplying isn't up to the demands of the consumer. Why in the world would we buy it? What you see as a temper tantrum, I see as basic economics. And I've taken my money and time elsewhere (two things are precious and limited), away from SE. Why would I dare waste those on something that doesn't meet my needs?

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

SE isn't my or your boss, they're attempting to sell you a product. Those are two extraordinarily different relationships. Also if your advice involves telling your boss to ignore your customers it's no wonder he's telling you to get out.

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It's not about him being my boss. It's about running a business. Both my place of work and SE are selling a product. They are in fact no different at all. And where do you get telling my boss to ignore customers? What I'm telling YOU is if I approach my boss with a problem without a solution, especially about a product that hasn't been field tested yet, he is going to point his finger at the door.

Just because you're a paying customer doesn't entitle you to have your rants, frustrations, and complaints listened to, and I can assure you their ears are closed until the expansion is released. Any adjustments they make from now until then will be minor tweaks they feel need to be corrected.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Just because you're a paying customer doesn't entitle you to have your rants, frustrations, and complaints listened to, and I can assure you their ears are closed until the expansion is released. Any adjustments they make from now until then will be minor tweaks they feel need to be corrected.

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I'll have to correct you here for a bit. They are, in fact, entitled to their rants and tantrums. But that doesn't mean Square-Enix is entitled to listen to (for now) baseless complaints

It's against the rules to criticize anything SE does. (I forget the exact phrasing in the ToS for this, or if it was just a GM who said it in a thread before.)

At best, you might be able to get away with it, if it sounds less like a personal attack, with colorful sounding language, (and I dont simply mean cursing) but just listing off some numbers, and leaving it more vague on your opinion, like, hmm MAYBE this has an issue.

But, I've seen some complaints that went by just fine, so who knows.

I like how in response to a makeshift petition to get us some attention from the devs, the smacked it all in one containment board so no one could see it.

This feels like less of an attempt to help us and more of an attempt to shut us up.

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Originally Posted by dark494

That's a very *American* mentality to throw a tantrum and threaten to pull out if you don't get your way. You don't see that kind of childish behavior over on the JP side of the forum, where they're actually very civilized and constructive, mature even.

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But if you aren't interested in something, why should you pay for it?

It's reasonable and "mature," as you put it, to "pull out" if you don't like a decision. SE is a business and if a customer isn't interested in what they provide, they use their money elsewhere.

This is not a tantrum.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I like how in response to a makeshift petition to get us some attention from the devs, the smacked it all in one containment board so no one could see it.

This feels like less of an attempt to help us and more of an attempt to shut us up.

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Kind of agree, to be honest.

Petitions by themselves aren't very constructive and don't really provide anything (stand-alone) when compared to a hearty discussion or contained feedback (constructive), which is the entire point of a 'discussion' board. People shouldn't be surprised when petitions (which are basically always going to be perceived as pseudo-demand threads where people waddle in and up their post count with a pointless 'signed' comment) gets closed during a time when everyone and their mother is already posting salty whinge-infested threads about something that hasn't been released yet en mass.

Throwing a tantrum about it won't win you any friends or any more attention from SE than you already got (thread lock/merge with the mega-thread like all the other useless threads).

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

But if you aren't interested in something, why should you pay for it?

It's reasonable and "mature," as you put it, to "pull out" if you don't like a decision. SE is a business and if a customer isn't interested in what they provide, they use their money elsewhere.

This is not a tantrum.

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I agree, you should never pay for something you don't believe in, agree with or enjoy.

That being said there is a distinct difference between voicing your concerns in a rational thought provoking manner, and the "if you don't do as I say I quit (inserts service ect)".
If you aren't willing to admit there is an overabundance of negativity... no, unconstructive negativity surrounding this very topic you're conveniently ignoring some of largest facets where players for this game come together to talk about stuff.

So when a person talks about "American" mentality vs "Japanese" mentality You need to understand that both societies are very different from one another and since that is the case, deal with problems almost invariably different as well.
No one's arguing about how basic economics works. That type of thing transcends language barriers. But if you want to sit there and say a petition where you simply sign your name is constructive in any way shape or form then you'd have to be living under a damn tectonic plate to see what's happening right now. EVERYONE within the community is aware of what's going on and a petition isn't going to do ANYTHING. Especially when the OP of said thread said "This isn't a discussion piece, just sign if you want Whm changed" (something very similar to this) Yeah, constructive thought at it's finest.

Not everyone is Crybabying it. No one's saying that, since generalizations are always wrong. But you can't say they don't exist, (and in higher quantities than usual right now) out of convenience for the sake of an argument.

Now you have another person where in the title is "I just cancelled my pre-order". Are we going to pretend this person wasn't seeking attention? Of course they were, they were directly seeking that Shock aspect. The quitting the game spiel is the ultimate "end-game" of sorts. If it wasn't so damn contrived already anyways. Just based off the title nothing good is going to come out of that discussion. I'd have deleted it too if it were up to me since it's such a bad title. Why would I even want feedback from a person who threatens me? Why would I entertain what little that person probably has to offer when there are hundreds of posts on very valid threads on these forums as well as many other well known gathering places like Reddit where people are actually trying to help.

End point: If you want things changed, Act like it. I haven't liked Whm since ever, I got it to 50 in 2.0 and quit. So I can't offer any type of constructive criticism in that regard. However remember this, Just because a class isn't meta doesn't mean it can't perform well, be fun to play and also be viable. People like to pretend only the Meta exists; Maybe it's to feel closer to their favorite players in a game, Maybe it's because they want the best strat to win, Maybe they don't wanna math it all out themselves and go with someone who seems more knowledgeable than them, and sometimes it's just a bunch of Sheep who can't think for themselves. Regardless of the reason, you're a fool to think any class isn't viable. Maybe not world first, but tell me exactly how many of you are actually trying to achieve world first? I'm willing to bet that 99% of you have never attempted or will attempt a world first clear. However in that regard whm wouldn't be the only class left out of the cool kids club now would it? There will always be a best and worst.

Try to understand that Devs have to attempt at making every class in their respective role the same but different. All tanks Need to be able to tank, deal and mitigate relatively the same amount of damage, but they need to be able to do it differently from one another. The same can be said for healers, They need to be able to heal, do some damage, and offer various utility that is different, yet balances out to be the same worth or of the same "Value". DPS are no exception. It's difficult to do and the more classes you have the harder it becomes in that you need to try and make every class... Again, the same, but different.... Otherwise the end result is something unplayable. I do sorta see where they were trying to go with the Whitemage changes, and you can't hate them for trying something out. I can't say with 100% confidence that it's a horrible system. But then again i don't have a horse in this race. I do have confidence in the community as a whole though, and the dev team. If something needs to change, I'm sure it will.

Edit: Spelling