How can we be DoT Mages with no DoTs?

So I've been watching the Skill videos regarding the new, and remade skills for all of the Jobs, and well.... What happened to SCH and SMN? How can we be considered DoT mages now if we don't have DoTs. I understand consolidation but this is sorta overkill? I was worried about losing Aero on SCH, but, oh boy, I wish that was all I would lose. Now both jobs only have 2 DoTs, lots of Jobs have only 2 DoTs; and their AoE got nerfed to all hell. WHY!!?? SMN Has some other utilities that will make it more "entertaining" to play, but SCH now I'm just reduced to spamming Broil II. We don't even get an AoE skill to spam like Holy or Gravity. I guess I better enjoy SCH while I can, T.T

What do other people think, good change bad change? I know we just have to wait and see but like ARGH!!!! this feels like the Bard/Machinist cast times all over again. And we'll have to wait until 5.0 for a rework, T.T. My favorite Job seems less fun now.

People complained about Summoners being DoT mages and not summoners. They are clearly trying to fix that.

That being said, I like the DoT mage playstyle so I'm not a fan of the changes for now, but I'll have to see how it actually plays.

I'm going to plop my response in another thread directly in here. You still have dots, but thats not exactly the point. You need to start looking at how your job works AS A WHOLE. Not just 2 or 3 actions.

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Originally Posted by Vespar

Folks, its called balancing. Not just one job, but all of them as a whole. They may also have had to reallocate where SMN's dmg is coming from in order to bring some new aspects to the job. So the dmg may not necessarily be reduced overall, it'll likely increase actually. It just wont be from one or two different skills, but from those skills all actively working as a whole.

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This doesnt just apply to SMN but to ALL jobs. You must look at your job's kit as a cohesive unit. Not just bits and pieces of a unfinished puzzle.
SMN has alot more dynamics now than just cast some dots and spread them all over. Now you can do that and so much more. Your pets have a greater purpose now as well instead of just using Garuda for contagion.

Well considering most classes lost a DoT, I still consider SMN the DoT class

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Originally Posted by Vespar

I'm going to plop my response in another thread directly in here. You still have dots, but thats not exactly the point. You need to start looking at how your job works AS A WHOLE. Not just 2 or 3 actions. This doesnt just apply to SMN but to ALL jobs. You must look at your job's kit as a cohesive unit. Not just bits and pieces of a unfinished puzzle.
SMN has alot more dynamics now than just cast some dots and spread them all over. Now you can do that and so much more. Your pets have a greater purpose now as well instead of just using Garuda for contagion.

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They also gutted Bane to have fall off after the first mob, and fester saw a 1/3rd drop in potency. These two skills were vital parts of SMN's charm. Aoe that was reliable and low-cost with decent damage and burst on command. Now there's literally no reason to use fester because painflare does the same damage with both dots up but in aoe. Bahamut is not up often enough to justify this.

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Originally Posted by Vespar

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You are clearly missing the reason for this post. I saw your response in the other thread and while i cant say I remember for certain, there I am sure it had merit. But I am specifically questioning why they are removing the DoTs from the DoT mages. There is a reason people are up in arms about some if not a great many of these changes because as of right now they don't make sense and they don't seem to fit together. Some changes we expected, like the Cross Role Skills, and with that we expected replacement skills or a Skill Shuffle. But it looks like the Prune took more than we thought and left more questions than answers. WHM now have a "Lily" system that most people think sucks based on the resource it needs. I questioned why the 2 DoT mages lost their DoTs. SCH and SMN were the DoT mages in this game, and while SMN might be getting other "utility" SCH is being Shafted, damage-wise, by a wide margin. We basically get to spam our 1 Damaging Spell now, and we have NO AoE at all. If we had a Skill like Holy or Gravity that would be different, but we don't. No one is questioning the balance, they are questioning why have most of these adjustments occurred at all when they were already fixed.

I personally prefer this direction. Let's see even less emphasis on dots/ruin and more on pets going forward! It's what I've wanted from day 1!

Calculator in 5.0 will become the new DoT mage.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

People complained about Summoners being DoT mages and not summoners. They are clearly trying to fix that.

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Originally Posted by Vespar

I'm going to plop my response in another thread directly in here. You still have dots, but thats not exactly the point. You need to start looking at how your job works AS A WHOLE. Not just 2 or 3 actions.

This doesnt just apply to SMN but to ALL jobs. You must look at your job's kit as a cohesive unit. Not just bits and pieces of a unfinished puzzle.
SMN has alot more dynamics now than just cast some dots and spread them all over. Now you can do that and so much more. Your pets have a greater purpose now as well instead of just using Garuda for contagion.

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Well, it's not about to be fixed by leaving the filler just as numbingly dull after removing one of the few parts that felt decent on the job, such as the three DoTs down and three DoTs back flow of Bio II, Miasma, Bio.

And the fact that there were 3 of them is what made their AoE damage burst not quite insane.

Instead, SMN has effectively lost their ST focus options in AoE, as Painflare will always do at least as much damage as Fester, and longer-term AoE has been badly gimped. I'll admit that SMN AoE may have been a bit too strong this expansion, but when SE actively reduces some of the AoE penalty on BLM AoE (e.g. minimum 70% damage on Flare, up from 50%) and allows for more frequent Flare usage, it's far from in sync with other job's progression or apparent design ideology. BLM was not nearly so far behind as to not simply flip the imbalance on its head—and then some—now.

...And then there's SCH.

For an expansion that allegedly prioritized balance, it seems like two out of every three changes are trying to distance themselves from exactly that.

Because Summoners aren't supposed to be Dot mages. They are summoners, their strength is supposed to be tied to creatures they summon, which is what it looks like they are trying to do with the demi-bahamut mechanic.


I think people are too focused on the potency and aoe nerfs, crying that their class is ruined when nothing has been tested at max level yet. We also aren't the only class that's received across the board potency and aoe nerfs, no one knows the state of classes at 70 yet.



From the changes we've seen so far (which are not final by any means yet) it looks like they are trying to design summoner to feel like actual summoners, which is a welcome change from their current playstyle.

I saw Someone in another thread state that SE is trying to move away from AoE, but then why have the option at all. I love(d) playing SCH because I was able to effectively heal, protect and deal Sustainable damage. The Cleric Stance change, while the name is meh, is okay, but now I have no AoE and will just spam Broil II. I don't know how the content of 4.0 will be but right now I feel SCH got a nerf in the worst way. I didn't even mention the Fairy heal Potency, I'm more pissed at losing my Damage abilities, I though losing Aero would be the worst of it boy was I wrong. T.T

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Originally Posted by Selova

Because Summoners aren't supposed to be Dot mages. They are summoners, their strength is supposed to be tied to creatures they summon, which is what it looks like they are trying to do with the demi-bahamut mechanic.


I think people are too focused on the potency and aoe nerfs, crying that their class is ruined when nothing has been tested at max level yet. We also aren't the only class that's received across the board potency and aoe nerfs, no one knows the state of classes at 70 yet.



From the changes we've seen so far (which are not final by any means yet) it looks like they are trying to design summoner to feel like actual summoners, which is a welcome change from their current playstyle.

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I'm not saying I'm against shifting to more pet-heavy style of play, but gutting their biggest two skills into the ground out of nowhere is not the right way to do it.

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

I'm not saying I'm against shifting to more pet-heavy style of play, but gutting their biggest two skills into the ground out of nowhere is not the right way to do it.

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I'm not exactly thrilled about the nerfs either. We will have to see how changing to a more summon/pet based job affects them at endgame in stormblood.

While the nerfs certainly aren't helping them currently they aren't doing anything for them when it comes to output at endgame currently when compared to bards and blms.

A change was needed, we'll just have to see if the new bahamut summon mechanic was the right change to make.

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Originally Posted by Selova

I'm not exactly thrilled about the nerfs either. We will have to see how changing to a more summon/pet based job affects them at endgame in stormblood.

While the nerfs certainly aren't helping them currently they aren't doing anything for them when it comes to output at endgame currently when compared to bards and blms.

A change was needed, we'll just have to see if the new bahamut summon mechanic was the right change to make.

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But what about the changes to SCH, we were fine as were were. Why did we have to get hit. they were able to "adjust" the traits why not give us a trait to readjust our AoE? or something?

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Originally Posted by Eloah

I saw Someone in another thread state that SE is trying to move away from AoE, but then why have the option at all. I love(d) playing SCH because I was able to effectively heal, protect and deal Sustainable damage. The Cleric Stance change, while the name is meh, is okay, but now I have no AoE and will just spam Broil II. I don't know how the content of 4.0 will be but right now I feel SCH got a nerf in the worst way. I didn't even mention the Fairy heal Potency, I'm more pissed at losing my Damage abilities, I though losing Aero would be the worst of it boy was I wrong. T.T

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I don't think they are trying to move away from aoe, just the massive speed pulls the game has become.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

I don't think they are trying to move away from aoe, just the massive speed pulls the game has become.

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Every mmo eventually boils down to this. If it is this, then they're just wasting their time trying to counter-act it. Its the only reason I'm not bothered by it. We have two dungeons to run daily, and we have had 4+ months in farming them. We're gonna get tired of doing them and look to make them as fast as possible. Every mmo has this issue. They're just wasting dev resources and time trying to counter act something so naturally occurring in an mmo.

How about instead of the constant complaints we wait and see if the game is better or not.


I for one get as impressed as hell when I see someone rise to the challenge. I end up being all like...

http://e.lvme.me/8rbkp35.jpg]

You're a Summoner and a Scholar. The DoTs were a thing cause the Devs didn't know how to balance everything out.

But I think the Devs understand now that Summoners are about attacking with Pets and Summons.

While Scholar should be using their fairies more to dole out more healing.

I must be missing something. SCH still has AoE, it just got nerfed. Holy says hi, which was nerfed long before.

The other two healers have been spamming one spell for the longest time now as well. Welcome to the club.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I must be missing something. SCH still has AoE, it just got nerfed. Holy says hi, which was nerfed long before.

The other two healers have been spamming one spell for the longest time now as well. Welcome to the club.

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Yeah, the whole "Holy says hi" crap is moot beacause you wanna hear how Holy was nerfed for 3.0. "Deals area of effect damage to nearby enemies. First target is hit with 200 potency. All targets afterwards take 10% less damage up to a maximum of 50% reduced." Wanna see how Bane was Buff/Nerfed for 3.0 "Spreads Bio, Miasma, and Bio II to all targets in range, the first 3 targets receive 100% potency with the 4th and beyond receiving 50%". Now I am no expert, but it seems to me like they evened out to 50% in the long run. But the new Bane will "Hit the first enemy with 100% the next with 80%, the third 60%, the fourth 40% and the fifth or beyond with 20%". Now again I'm no expert, but that looks like a bigger nerf than Holy ever got 50% is understandable, but 20% is pitiful.

personally i'm glad my alts a smn/sch now i can actually focus on dps'ing as smn and healing as sch without worrying about dots being up all the time or risk people raging since sch and smn juggle pet actions in addition to your own spells now we'll jsut have to see how it works out in stormblood they might just buff attack speels to makeup for no more dots

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Originally Posted by Eloah

But what about the changes to SCH, we were fine as were were. Why did we have to get hit. they were able to "adjust" the traits why not give us a trait to readjust our AoE? or something?

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Yeah I don't think it's fair that scholars were affected because I thought the whole reason for the abolishment of the class system was partly to free scholar from summoner so they wouldnt share their kits as far as damage goes.

I was hoping they would have had treated scholar as a stand-alone job with its own unique kit, sadly that wasn't the case and the summoner dot nerfs impacted them as well. I really feel bad for scholars.

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Originally Posted by Selova

Yeah I don't think it's fair that scholars were affected because I thought the whole reason for the abolishment of the class system was partly to free scholar from summoner so they wouldnt share their kits as far as damage goes.

I was hoping they would have had treated scholar as a stand-alone job with its own unique kit, sadly that wasn't the case and the summoner dot nerfs impacted them as well. I really feel bad for scholars.

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Thank you, *sniffle* :'(

All these changes are catering to casuals who will still perform horribly even after the game got so dumbed down.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Yeah, the whole "Holy says hi" crap is moot beacause you wanna hear how Holy was nerfed for 3.0. "Deals area of effect damage to nearby enemies. First target is hit with 200 potency. All targets afterwards take 10% less damage up to a maximum of 50% reduced." Wanna see how Bane was Buff/Nerfed for 3.0 "Spreads Bio, Miasma, and Bio II to all targets in range, the first 3 targets receive 100% potency with the 4th and beyond receiving 50%". Now I am no expert, but it seems to me like they evened out to 50% in the long run. But the new Bane will "Hit the first enemy with 100% the next with 80%, the third 60%, the fourth 40% and the fifth or beyond with 20%". Now again I'm no expert, but that looks like a bigger nerf than Holy ever got 50% is understandable, but 20% is pitiful.

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20% of Bane is 126 potency, which is more than 50% of Holy which is 100. That's not counting the 250 potency of Shadowflare.

There is a difference in that you can't spam it though.

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Originally Posted by Selova

Yeah I don't think it's fair that scholars were affected because I thought the whole reason for the abolishment of the class system was partly to free scholar from summoner so they wouldnt share their kits as far as damage goes.

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I think Bane and Shadow Flare change was particularly targeting SCH DPS. also lost Blizz and Miasma II if I saw right?

Painflare recast change was to compensate for Bane change for SMN. it definitely hurts SMN too but SCH is the main target for this AOE nerf.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

20% of Bane is 126 potency, which is more than 50% of Holy which is 100. That's not counting the 250 potency of Shadowflare.

There is a difference in that you can't spam it though.

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Now that is the 20% potency, NOW, when we lose our 3rd DoT that 20% will be lower. And also as you indicated it cannot be spammed. These are DoTs if they don't tick for the full amount of time they lose potency, which makes it worse. And for right now Shadow Flare is one of Our DoTs, but it will not be once SB is released.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Now that is the 20% potency, NOW, when we lose our 3rd DoT that 20% will be lower. And also as you indicated it cannot be spammed. These are DoTs if they don't tick for the full amount of time they lose potency, which makes it worse. And for right now Shadow Flare is one of Our DoTs, but it will not be once SB is released.

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No, that's the potency after the changes. I don't think you realize how ludicrous SCH damage is. It needed a nerf badly.

And I still see Shadowflare in its abilities.

honestly i wanna delete smn and remake it so it's more like yuna than this copypasta pet class crap

i think it would have been dope if players summoned primals and basically controlled them for a time which would have powerful damage and raid utilities. kind of like bards where you'd want them in your group except fuck yea megaflare and each one would do their own unique little thing

We are no DoT class anymore, at least not more than BRD.
We are the ruin/pet Job now.

If people need to open several threads for one topic, I also can just copy my post here:

We get 30s of Ruin buff *10% every minute (through 3D), we get 25% more ruin casts into a minute without losing DoTs and Ruin2 got lifted a bit for the inevitable weave.

~18 ruin/ruin2/ruin3 per minute now, let's say 6*80+12*200 = 2880 per minute. Now we get ~24 ruin/ruin3 per minute, which would maybe be 12*80+12*150 = 2720.
So not that weaker and that is with a worse ratio of ruin/ruin3 and without the Ruin4 and without the 30s ruin buff you get every minute.
And ruin3 use is even more likely because you can regain mp without dps loss if you use the mp drain GCD when no ruin buffs are up, so if we apply that same ratio as for the first case we look at 8*80+16*150 = 3040 pot with every 80 pot attack either buffed by 10%, being an 200 pot Ruin4 or refreshing your mp if both former not apply.

Honestly DoTs becoming more offhand and this demi primal thing is a very good change because this can pave the way to a more summoner feeling summoner. If this play gets expanded on then we can see more demi primal usage like Demi Shinryu, Demi Leviathan etc, then it will finally give us a summoner thats like classic with its flash and more summon power while still being a new twist.

Egis being the base summon but we go full summoner mode with demi summons. I can live with that.

Also DoTs becoming more off hand and less main action can leave room for a full time DoT job in the future so win win I suppose.

I have no problem with less micro management on SMN and a greater pet focus.

On another note, the type of QQ we're seeing today is nothing new. People on this game love to complain about things they haven't even tried yet, and then the complaints practically disappear after (see MCH). Or everyone moves on to something else to cry about. It will be little wonder if the devs stop listening completely one day. And I can't help but wonder why people in the past couple of years are increasingly breaking into a panic over every little thing unknown, not just related to this game, but life in general.

Wait till expansion hits, and then voice your constructive feedback.

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Originally Posted by Ash_

Wait till expansion hits, and then voice your constructive feedback.

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This. Get to 70, figure out the rotation, and then go from there.

Hm. Maybe this is SEs solution to the DoT limit issues in 24 man instances?

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Hm. Maybe this is SEs solution to the DoT limit issues in 24 man instances?

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Quite a few dots were removed from many of the classes...

That's an interesting theory.
A Game Theory!

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