Healers not dpsing is not an issue it seems.

My friend did an experiment and did roulette dungeons as a healer over the last week or so and even though he normally does full out dps as a scholar he just stopped and only healed to see if anyone would say anything. Out of 12 dungeons he said not a single person said anything to him minus two tanks kindly offering advice in a positive and non pushy way.

I sincerely feel people are taking this issue a bit far and even timing runs when I tanked with him healing it barely took 1-2 minutes longer. Not sure why people are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill on this issue. He even got his normal amount of accommodations. Truth is for the most part people don't care ;/

Error, sample size too small.

I would like to make a correction:

Most people don't care ENOUGH to warrant pointing anything out or potentially starting a fight and prolonging something most people would rather finish in a short amount of time.

Although I main healer (and I do personally love DPSing as a healer), I've been going as BLM as of lately, and most healers I've been teamed up with don't do damage. Now, I don't necessarily like this healing playstyle... but do I wanna be arsed with having to stop what I'm doing to be snarky about it? No. Do I wanna kick someone who might not be performing as I THINK they should and risk party disbanding and having to queue for another 30 minutes? Most definitely, NO.

I'm more likely to roll my eyes and keep going and toss my commendation somewhere else, if I'm being honest :P

What bounddreamer said is right, though. You can't conclude something like "people don't care about healer DPS" from a dozen dungeons... specially if they were from leveling roulette (OP didn't specify which roulettes, I'm assuming they did all daily roulettes for a couple of days).

As for the reason you say it took only a couple of minutes longer... well, there could be a number of factors affecting this :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashua

I sincerely feel people are taking this issue a bit far and even timing runs when I tanked with him healing it barely took 1-2 minutes longer.

---

Just curious if you timed this using the same 2 DPS a few times or if this was rolled into the DF experiment. If you did it in the DF with different DPS then there are too many variables to claim that healer DPS only accounts for 1-2 minutes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dement

Just curious if you timed this using the same 2 DPS a few times or if this was rolled into the DF experiment. If you did it in the DF with different DPS then there are too many variables to claim that healer DPS only accounts for 1-2 minutes.

---

It has been proven in other experiments that the only time healer dps takes off more than a minute is when both dps are fairly shoddy. Otherwise they don't add as much as some would like to believe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

It has been proven in other experiments that the only time healer dps takes off more than a minute is when both dps are fairly shoddy.

---

Got a link to that proof?

My data pretty much says the polar opposite. I'll match or beat the majority of randoms in PF as SCH in both Expert and lvl 60 roulettes (and will typically do around 60%-70% of the DPS of a decent raidworthy player who's trying).

It's not going to half the time the run takes or anything, but with average DPS that are doing roughly the same or slightly less than my DPS, it's generally 2 to 3 minutes faster according to my logs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

Snip.

---

I don't, sadly! The links and math were all worked out in one of the hundreds of other threads and close to thousands (estimate) of pages worth of this very same debate, and I don't feel particularly interested in treading water in a vast ocean looking for small scraps of data. Ultimately though, I remember it boiling down to an expert run with all highly skilled players taking about 13-14 minutes without the healer dpsing, and 12-13 minutes with the healer going off the wall. Don't remember the jobs used, but that was what the math and experiments gave.

Well yeah. Most of an expert run with a good team is travel time, not trash burning. At that point you'd be able to shave off more time with a group teleport than AOE burst.

Which does nothing to disprove the original assertion, which is that healer dps doesn't add nearly as much as people like to think it does, instead just covering for sub-par dps.

My personal experience after farming lore in Gubal Hard for 4 relics is that every 500 dps lowers the total run time by around 1 minute, for that particular dungeon at least. As a healer I was typically doing 1500-1700 dps throughout the dungeon, which would account for about 3 minutes of the run time compared to a healer that would do nothing but healing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Which does nothing to disprove the original assertion, which is that healer dps doesn't add nearly as much as people like to think it does, instead just covering for sub-par dps.

---

Considering a decent healers DPS can come within 75% of a decent DPS in a dungeon scene on trash packs (Or more), that's like saying that having one of the DPS not DPS doesn't do that much in the first place.

And you really need to stop insinuating people are arguing that Healers are replacing DPS instead of adding to it with comments like "covering for sub-par dps" that you love to throw into these threads. Nobody is arguing that healers DPSing is an opportunity for a DPS to slow down. Nobody. It's great when people can have open dialogue about opinions on the matter, but fighting arguments that were never made isn't helping either side.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

It has been proven in other experiments that the only time healer dps takes off more than a minute is when both dps are fairly shoddy. Otherwise they don't add as much as some would like to believe.

---

This is one of those instances where the pithy "pics or it didn't happen" line is completely appropriate to use.

For once I'm not interested in rehashing this. Anyone can prove for themselves the difference an active healer makes.

As for why no one complained in a small sample size, I would guess that they might be players like me: those who will put up with nearly anything short of outright trolling or duty-breaking incompetence in the interest of not adding further drama to an already painful experience by instigating what is almost certain to be a useless argument, no matter how good the intention might be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Which does nothing to disprove the original assertion, which is that healer dps doesn't add nearly as much as people like to think it does, instead just covering for sub-par dps.

---

From my perspective, the majority of DPSers that I get in roulette are sub par.

Makes me wish logs did a better job of handling dungeons, it'd be much easier to just upload everything to give some easy to read figures for this.

Thing is, I also don't scream at my tank if they run ahead before I can get buffs up. They instantly lose their chance at a comm, but I'd rather just cast protect during the upcoming trash pull and call it a day. Griping about it will only disturb the party more and slow down the run. The reason why I am so harsh is because a tank that does this immediately sets the tone for how the dungeon is going to go. I already know this tank is going to be impatient, and make me work harder to do my job.

I'd imagine it is the same for healers who don't DPS. There might be so many of them that players just deal with it. It certainly brings some enlightenment to how easy DPSing healers get comms. In the case of a healer though, not DPSing doesn't make anyone work harder in duty finder instances. Their DPS can only make things easier. If they chose to not DPS, it changes nothing for the other players except the length of time it will take to complete the instance.

I will agree it blown a bit out of proportion, but I've been just as passionate about it but have tried to be more of a mediator during the debates. I will always stand by that healers should be encouraged to DPS, but the debate has no place inside a dungeon.

I guess I'll use this one out of the many threads to give my opinion on the topic.

It basically boils down to common courtesy, and showing respect for your fellow players. When the two dps and the tank are both constantly doing their rotations to do the most dps they can and trying to keep hate against that dps, and the healer is just standing there doing literally nothing, because they cast medica II, or fairy is keeping everyone full, it's just disrespectful. At least cast something. If you don't want to dps, fine. Cast stoneskin on everyone, keep regen/adlo up. But if you are just standing there doing next to nothing, and going multiple GCDs without performing an action of any kind, you are just bad and/or lazy. Period. The end.

Keep in mind a few factors. We are in a long content lull. A lot of more seasoned players aren't running many Experts nowadays. I mean, I can only speak for myself but I barely know what to do with all the Scripture I have. Granted, I wouldn't kick a heal only healer. I'd just roll my eyes and drop tank stance. That being said, this pertains more to Savage and the trickle down effect. Heal only healers have a significantly harder time getting into consistent statics. The death of Cleric Stance will only make that worse since people more easily justify you should be DPSing. The end result is even more casual oriented players adopt this approach. Are they going to call out or kick healers in dungeons for not DPSing? Probably not in large numbers. When it comes to Savage raiding though...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

Most people don't care ENOUGH to warrant pointing anything out or potentially starting a fight and prolonging something most people would rather finish in a short amount of time.

---

That's one of the main reason why people don't say anything. Saying something is risky, and the risk is that you start a fight and someone gets kicked. Worst case, the party dismiss and you have to queue again.
So, in the end, saying something might make you lose more time than it might save.
That's why people talk about that issue on the forums. At least, here, there's nothing to lose, and no risk involved. It's another story when you're actually in a duty.


Another main reason is that people simply don't watch what others are doing.

The sample size is more then large enough overall. It shows mainly the disparity of people who play the game over those who steam about it on the forums. My runs normally take around 20 minutes so 14 is exceptional.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashua

The sample size is more then large enough overall. It shows mainly the disparity of people who play the game over those who steam about it on the forums. My runs normally take around 20 minutes so 14 is exceptional.

---

1. 14 isn't a sufficient sample size for pretty much anything, statistically speaking.

2. The majority of players post on these forums rarely or never. For that matter, I would suggest that the majority of players say almost nothing beyond "Hello" and maybe "Thanks for the run" in Duty Finder roulettes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashua

The sample size is more then large enough overall. It shows mainly the disparity of people who play the game over those who steam about it on the forums. My runs normally take around 20 minutes so 14 is exceptional.

---

A sample size of twelve when the Aether population in tens of thousands is... nothing. Curious what dungeons you ran because 9-14 minutes is pretty standard with a decent group and healers DPSing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

A sample size of twelve when the Aether population in tens of thousands is... nothing. Curious what dungeons you ran because 9-14 minutes is pretty standard with a decent group and healers DPSing.

---

In the context of player base you are correct but I'm going by the number of those who post trying to make an issue out of nothing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fyce

Another main reason is that people simply don't watch what others are doing.

---

This describes me to a T. The only time I'm ever able to pay attention to what others are doing is when I'm healing. As a tank or dps, I'm far too busy doing my job to pay attention to the rest of the party's rotations. The only time I realize that something is up is if dps is just way too slow. And at that point, I blame the dps players. (Blame as in silently judge them while not saying anything). While healer dps does contribute to the overall speed of the run, I really couldn't care less if a healer doesn't dps. But at that point, healing is so damned boring that I wonder why a heal-only healer even plays the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashua

In the context of player base you are correct but I'm going by the number of those who post trying to make an issue out of nothing.

---

Everything is ultimately in the larger context of the player base, and since much of the player base seems not to read (much less participate) in forums, no part of this works.

It's fair enough to state your opinion based on your personal experience, but let's not suggest any statistical relevance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Keep in mind a few factors. We are in a long content lull. A lot of more seasoned players aren't running many Experts nowadays. I mean, I can only speak for myself but I barely know what to do with all the Scripture I have. Granted, I wouldn't kick a heal only healer. I'd just roll my eyes and drop tank stance. That being said, this pertains more to Savage and the trickle down effect. Heal only healers have a significantly harder time getting into consistent statics. The death of Cleric Stance will only make that worse since people more easily justify you should be DPSing. The end result is even more casual oriented players adopt this approach. Are they going to call out or kick healers in dungeons for not DPSing? Probably not in large numbers. When it comes to Savage raiding though...

---

Personally, I think the loss of cleric stance might actually encourage healers that don't dps to try throwing some since they will no longer have to juggle the stance dance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cynfael

Everything is ultimately in the larger context of the player base, and since much of the player base seems not to read (much less participate) in forums, no part of this works.

It's fair enough to state your opinion based on your personal experience, but let's not suggest any statistical relevance.

---

If that is the case then the threads outlining healers not doing damage is also not relevant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashua

If that is the case then the threads outlining healers not doing damage is also not relevant.

---

Healers not doing damage is a logical game mechanic argument, not a statistical representation argument. Your argument is that not doing damage is not a major issue because players are tolerant of it in casual content. It doesn't change the fact that your empirical sample group is entirely too small to draw any sort of conclusions. In my opinion, you're even right in your hypothesis, but your "research method" is entirely lacking in verifiable principles, which what you're being criticized on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitfox

Healers not doing damage is a logical game mechanic argument, not a statistical representation argument. Your argument is that not doing damage is not a major issue because players are tolerant of it in casual content. It doesn't change the fact that your empirical sample group is entirely too small to draw any sort of conclusions. In my opinion, you're even right in your hypothesis, but your "research method" is entirely lacking in verifiable principles, which what you're being criticized on.

---

Exactly. I'd go so far as to agree that most players probably care little about what's going on around them unless there's a disaster in progress, but I wouldn't suggest that this notion or a handful of dungeon runs with players who choose not to communicate in chat represents any statistical "research" or devalues arguments in favor of healers pulling their full weight.

Besides, at least for me, the discussion over healer play style has never been primarily about what pleases or displeases the player base; my choosing to play well is much more about my enjoyment of the game (and efficient use of my play time) than it is about anyone else approving or disapproving of my choices.

My overarching point was a experiment around one person. The entire time nothing was said to him for the entire week.. What I should have said is the complaints seem more the exception then the norm in casual content because most statements are centered around pug groups where the griping its happening. In that context I'm fairly sure if we went months without damage dealing the response would be as most seem to portray that they just do not care enough to gripe about it. But critique of the sample for one person is fair play I'll agree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashua

My overarching point was a experiment around one person. The entire time nothing was said to him for the entire week.. What I should have said is the complaints seem more the exception then the norm in casual content because most statements are centered around pug groups where the griping its happening. In that context I'm fairly sure if we went months without damage dealing the response would be as most seem to portray that they just do not care enough to gripe about it. But critique of the sample for one person is fair play I'll agree.

---

I feel like the sidebar discussion about your methods is overtaking your main point, and I don't actually mean to beat that to death.

To be honest, I suspect that a great deal of any griping precipitated by poor gameplay experience skips the in-game chat and comes straight to the forums. In the course of hundreds of duties, I've rarely witnessed or engaged in conversation during a run unless the players know each other.

- If the run is going great, many players will just thank their good luck and keep on trucking.

- If the run is average, most players are smart enough not to risk stopping the show to try to school a stranger on how to play better.

- If the run is utter garbage, they'll either drop or bitch a little, then drop.

When I witness another healer regularly spending their GCDs standing idle, I don't say anything. If healing appears to be the only damned thing they can do, I certainly am not going to encourage them to add "typing defensive replies" to their onerous list of responsibilities.

The thing is, if getting through the duty is your main objective, confronting bad players usually results in more time and effort spent than it gains time, so most of the time people obviously won't do it. It doesn't mean that bad players aren't bad or they aren't an issue. People are just taking the path of least resistance and venting off their frustration in other venues such as the forums.

Same thing everyone's said. When I see a healer not DPSing (in levelling dungeons) I'll kindly ask if they're aware of what Cleric Stance does. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt.

Most of the times they don't answer, though. At that point I just let them be mediocre and go my way silently. As others have said, no point in engaging in an argument with someone who will likely not bulge. That said, my approach also touches on the possibility that they may be true newbies and they'll be open to advice, which is the best case scenario.

I don't really bother in lvl 60 roulettes, though.

Right, so you feel like you do your job as a healer when you only heal, AFKing about half the fights or more. So why as a DPS could I not just AFK half the fight and deal dmg the rest of the time? The mobs die anyway, and we'd probably clear the dungeon anyway. But don't you see the problem with this attitude? You're playing with a group of other people and it really would only be polite for you to try your best to not hold them back.

I too like it when healers dps. There's quite a few things I need to write and I appreciate them being so helpful! That being said if I see them not dpsing I'll sigh and play properly instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cynfael

To be honest, I suspect that a great deal of any griping precipitated by poor gameplay experience skips the in-game chat and comes straight to the forums.

---

That and also to FC / LS chats. :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shayuki

Right, so you feel like you do your job as a healer when you only heal, AFKing about half the fights or more. So why as a DPS could I not just AFK half the fight and deal dmg the rest of the time? The mobs die anyway, and we'd probably clear the dungeon anyway. But don't you see the problem with this attitude? You're playing with a group of other people and it really would only be polite for you to try your best to not hold them back.

---

I guess it's the same as when you see a damage dealer never play the job to its fullest. I see bards all the time never use songs or people save cooldowns for bosses only.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashua

I guess it's the same as when you see a damage dealer never play the job to its fullest. I see bards all the time never use songs or people save cooldowns for bosses only.

---

That's the level of healers that already do DPS, though.

For healers, you'll only heal for around 20-30% of a dungeon, the rest is downtime. So as long as a DPS is pulling 20-30% of what they could be doing, they'd be on equal grounds. To speak numbers, if you can pull 3000 DPS in a dungeon, a DPS that stoops to the level of a heal only player would only have to pull around 600-900 DPS. I think putting Garuda on Sic would suffice for that, but that's in line with scholars letting the fairy heal.

Playing one's job to the fullest isn't even what people ask for.

The thread should read healer dps is not pertinent for completing any current content pre echo. It should not read that's it's not an issue, since that presumes that nobody can take issue with non dpsing healers. Current content dps check can all be completed smoothly before echo with zero healer dps (which I find sad...but it's a fact). Now if they return to gordias dps check :)....threads like these will only exist for causal content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by javid

The thread should read healer dps is not pertinent for completing any current content pre echo. It should not read that's it's not an issue, since that presumes that nobody can take issue with non dpsing healers. Current content dps check can all be completed smoothly before echo with zero healer dps (which I find sad...but it's a fact). Now if they return to gordias dps check :)....threads like these will only exist for causal content.

---

Touch good suir. I think these last few posts sum it better then I could.

I simply don't have the energy to raise it in-game anymore. 2/3 DF runs involve AFK Healers or panic full-HP overhealers who don't know DPS spells unless a boss is hitting them in the face with them. Been levelling my Warrior to pass the time leading to Stormblood and, as an aggressive WHM main, nothing grinds my gears more than seeing someone taking the lazy approach when I know exactly what people could be doing during the countless downtime. However, raising that in-chat, politely or not, more often than not results in either a) no change or b) a snark-fest. Very rarely do people take notice, especially the higher up you go. I'm just out of the longest dungeon I've had in three weeks thanks to someone with mostly 40-60's overhealing non-stop and only using DPS spells for a DPS check on last boss. I fail to see what expressing my opinion would have done (positively) for someone like that who, in my mind, should have known better 1-3 level 60 classes ago.