Paladin AoE in 4.0

With the advent of Total Eclipse at level 46 this nearly solves the issue with PLD AoE in 4 man content such as dungeons, POTD, and Aquapolis groups. However, I am worried that it is now implemented as well as it could be. I noticed during the live letter that they retained Flash and that Flash did not be replaced by Total Eclipse. I haven't confirmed yet, but I think Total Eclipse doesn't cause additional enmity like Flash does. This would mean you still mob up enemies using Flash to general enmity and then use Total Eclipse when they are in place. Does anyone else feel this is clunky, or is it useful to mix your MP/TP management? On one hand you're not doing damage while pulling, but on the other you're saving a full TP bar for AoE when they're are grouped up. Would it be better if Total Eclipse replaced Flash entirely at a low level and Flash just become the trait itself, or keep it how it has been announced?

Copy and paste this post in one of the 3 on going pld love threads!! Lol you can keep the title !!

I suspect the Paladin AoE rotation might end up being:

Flash x2 -> Total Eclipse x3 -> Flash x1 -> Total Eclipse x2 -> Flash x1 -> rotate combos with Riot Blade in it to recover MP for next pull.

Considering that Total Eclipse just replace Goring Blade combos in my previous AoE rotation I'm not unhappy.

No mention of Holy Spirit and Requiescat?


Using Requiescat at 100% MP (or 80% after using a Flash) self-buffs your damage for 12 seconds. Then tack on three Holy Spirits which looks like Fire IV damage and aoe. THEN Total Eclipse to spend TP and Royal Authority combos to get 80% of your MP back before Requiescats 60 second cooldown is ready again. I doubt you'll need to Flash more than once with all of that damage output in Shield Oath.

Holy Spirit is not AoE which is why I didn't mention it. They just look big.

Ah darn, that never crossed my mind. All this time I cheered for mini-holy XD

Does that AOE sword swing even generate aggro? Not sure it does. It should though.

Looks like PLD is still forced to use Flash and only gains an AoE filler. An improvement I guess, but I will still continue to hate Flash with passion.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Looks like PLD is still forced to use Flash and only gains an AoE filler. An improvement I guess, but I will still continue to hate Flash with passion.

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Flash isn't so bad when its not the only AOE skill we have

The blind on Flash also mitigates quite a few hits on bigger trash pulls. So sneaking in an occasional flash definitely seems handy. :)

I wish flash don't have that 1 or 2 seconds delay before apply enmity like this now

Well, so long you are in Shield Oath it should generate some agro...
It would be bad if it turns out to combo from Fast Blade tho, then you WOULD need to use Flash a couple times

For flash to be any use at all in 4.0 it should have the mana cost drastically reduced or moved over to TP. Any new attacking abilities we get AOE or not should have enmity built into it because after all you are hitting a mob and damage does generate hate.

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Originally Posted by GDFletcher

For flash to be any use at all in 4.0 it should have the mana cost drastically reduced or moved over to TP. Any new attacking abilities we get AOE or not should have enmity built into it because after all you are hitting a mob and damage does generate hate.

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The new spin attack will be doing 110 potency versus flash's 600+ potency worth of enmity. After Shield Oath these two attacks should generate ~252 enmity and ~1377 enmity.

For comparison an Enochian+Astral Fire 3 Fire 2 is 189 and a Enochian+Astral Fire 3 Flare is 245 to 491.

These numbers are before differences in WP (caster weapons often have 35%+ more than tank weapons), AP from main stat (Tank accessories will not be providing Str) and difference in dps from Tenacity/Direct Hit.

Flash will be a must for Paladin's wanting to hold enmity on multiple targets.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

The new spin attack will be doing 110 potency versus flash's 600+ potency worth of enmity. After Shield Oath these two attacks should generate ~252 enmity and ~1377 enmity.

For comparison an Enochian+Astral Fire 3 Fire 2 is 189 and a Enochian+Astral Fire 3 Flare is 245 to 491.

These numbers are before differences in WP (caster weapons often have 35%+ more than tank weapons), AP from main stat (Tank accessories will not be providing Str) and difference in dps from Tenacity/Direct Hit.

Flash will be a must for Paladin's wanting to hold enmity on multiple targets.

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where did u get the enmity for flash? I know the other stuff; but where did u find flash?

Flash + Fight or Flight + Circle of Scorn
The thing that buffs damage for being at 80+ mp
New AOE x however many times
Maybe one more flash after the first blind wears off
Doesn't seem very clunky to me.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Flash + Fight or Flight + Circle of Scorn
The thing that buffs damage for being at 80+ mp
New AOE x however many times
Maybe one more flash after the first blind wears off
Doesn't seem very clunky to me.

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Was gonna mention COS that every seems to have forgotten about and if you combine it with FOF you got some easy aggro Gen there for you.

Flash is awful compared to Drk's aoe, it's a shame that it is still in the game, doing zero damage like usual.

Does flash add fix mount of enmity to enemies or ir scale with your attack rating? I saw a chart on reddit said flash add about 650 enmity but when i leveling with paladin i have a trouble to hold enemy enmity with flash, and now when i'm 60 and well equip i only need to flash 2 or 3 time and can keep enemy aggro most of the pull

Flash, as I recall, is equivalent to 600 potency (it's been a long time since I tested it, but basically it generates equivalent enmity to an Overpower or DRK thing). In other words, it's as if you've used a 600 potency attack that scales with attack power and determination. However, it's a little misleading to just leave it at that, because
1 - Flash does not count as physical, so it doesn't benefit from Fight or Flight
2 - Flash does not benefit (iirc) from Crit
3 - Flash does not have a "damage range" of +/- 5% like most attacks do
4 - Flash does no damage, so the total potential enmity generation of your party members is higher than it would be if you were a DRK or WAR. There's more HP left over for party members to hit, so their maximum possible enmity is higher.

If anything, it's likely PLD's new circle slash will not be a tank move, giving you a reason to keep using flash.

Also yay they FINALLY get their circle slash back.

Flash once or twice for enmity, then spam Total Eclipse. Then weep as you have no MP.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Flash once or twice for enmity, then spam Total Eclipse. Then weep as you have no MP.

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You mean TP? Not really a problem because then you smack one with Requiescat and then start spamming Holy Spirit.

TP shouldn't be a problem while you're using your spells, swing with moderation, and most importantly, DPS does their job. Plus melee and ranged DPS can and might have their TP regens so everyone can help everyone really push it!

TP isn't the issue now in AoE situations. I am just worried we will be back to using Flash more than anything else of enmity is a concern.

It does not need "increased enmity" to work for trash pulls.

Between shield oath, flash to keep them blinded, and Circle of Scorn on cooldown it will be fine.

But is there a reason to not make it cause additional enmity like all other off-GCD tank AoE moves? It kind of forces them to stay in Shield Oath while others can drop theirs to do more, and that should be an option.

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Originally Posted by Raim

But is there a reason to not make it cause additional enmity like all other off-GCD tank AoE moves? It kind of forces them to stay in Shield Oath while others can drop theirs to do more, and that should be an option.

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Sounds more like the intent then anything else.

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Originally Posted by Raim

But is there a reason to not make it cause additional enmity like all other off-GCD tank AoE moves? It kind of forces them to stay in Shield Oath while others can drop theirs to do more, and that should be an option.

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Tank dps will be dropping so both War and Dark will likely need to stay in tank stance to hold hate.

Holy spirit 430 potency 1440 mp :( is casted ....but still....with the divine magic master trait u cant be interrupted

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

Holy spirit 430 potency 1440 mp :( is casted ....but still....with the divine magic master trait u cant be interrupted

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Holy Spirit is for single targets. And cast is actually a good thing. Now we don't have to worry about TP running out since we spend 12 seconds every minute letting our TP regenerate while spamming Holy Spirit.


Back to AoE... I'm not sure what the big covfefe is about Total Eclipse. At the moment it takes two Flashes and a Circle of Scorn to hold hate on a pack of mobs at i270. Once you've used Flash once (or twice), using Total Eclipse 3-4 times will easily make up for any additional Flashes you may have needed later on; you are in Shield Oath after all. Direct Damage counts as Emnity, the same reason why STR accessories used to be king (the extra enmity from pure damage allowed you to MT in Sword Oath without losing hate.)


It should also be noted that every single DPS can now reduce their own enmity, Off Tanks can use a variant of Shadewalker on the MT if you want to keep them in in Sword Oath, and every single DPS can now use Goad. I don't see the issue. Flash to Blind and get an Enmity lead -> Total Eclipse spam to DPS and maintain your Enmity lead.

You are going to be forced to be in shield oath full time with all the sams running around, if you think otherwise you are delusional. Tanks that can't hold agro will be auto kicked, this isn't the old days of full time sword oath, stuff changed.

In 4mans, it not having threat will make u ride the line in threat vs DPS.
But for endgame its perfect, as a WAR and DRK need enemies to hit them to do more DPS. (More so WAR than DRK now that blood price is grit onry)
So you dont want to pull off of your other tank when u need to quickly dispatch trash mobs mid savage raid.

In A12S, I would rely on blood price to spam abyssal drain on the adds, but my WAR OT would pull some of the adds off me with overpower, leaving me with less MP generation. (overpower is waaaay more threat than abyssal drain) So i had to use more unleashes before abyssal drain.

My point, this is balanced for endgame as far as I can tell.

Opening rotation for PLD will be something like this

Single Target :-
Fight or Flight --> Shield Lob --> Spirits Within --> Circle of Scorn --> Requiescat --> Holy Spirit --> Fast Blade --> Riot Blade --> Royal Authority

Multi Target :-
Fight or Flight --> Shield Lob --> Circle of Scorn --> Flash x2 --> Total Eclipse x2 --> Flash x2

That would be my take on the current changes

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Originally Posted by GDFletcher

Opening rotation for PLD will be something like this

Single Target :-
Fight or Flight --> Shield Lob --> Spirits Within --> Circle of Scorn --> Requiescat --> Holy Spirit --> Fast Blade --> Riot Blade --> Royal Authority

Multi Target :-
Fight or Flight --> Shield Lob --> Circle of Scorn --> Flash x2 --> Total Eclipse x2 --> Flash x2

That would be my take on the current changes

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We can actually attempt to match flash duration to when we use flash, so id have to check out the AoE rotation in practice.

And for single target, We don't really need to start with shield lob, since we can reach 10 more yalms with Holy Spirit. So I'd do Holy Spirit, then the rest of that, to keep Fight or Flights DPS active for all the physical dmg going out, and not wasted on magical.

If it's raid DPS you are going for then you should never open with Fight or Flight or Holy Spirit. After one Tank pulls the entire rotation is essentially:

1. Goring (or Halone if MT)
2. Requiescat -> Holy Spirit x5
3. Goring -> Royal -> Royal -> Goring -> Royal -> Royal
4. Repeat from #1

Note: Riot Blade x7 (the above rotation) + natural mp regen recovers exactly enough MP to Holy Spirit x5 every 60 seconds. However, due to boss mechanics you may need to restore MP via Sheltron to top yourself off before Requiescat is ready again.


Fight or Flight buffs 13 GCD's thus popping Fight or Flight at the start of the battle is a waste (it doesn't buff Holy Spirit spam.) Ideally you want to use it right after your second Royal Authority which will buff Goring, Royal, Royal, Goring, Requiscat. You also want to try and buff two Circle of Scorns since they are on a 25s CD. It's situational though due to boss mechanics so using FoF right after Holy Spirit spam is fine as well (since the boss may jump away before you have a chance to buff Requiescat.) Using Holy Spirit to pull is a DPS loss. You won't recover enough MP to cast Holy Spirit x5 if you use an unbuffed one at the start. It's better to save your MP for when its buffed by Requiscat 10 seconds into the fight.

One last observation to make. What Yoshi said in a recent interview about not making Total Eclipse have bonus enmity make absolutely no sense in the context of 8 man content. He said it would be better if the OT didn't have bonus enmity so they didn't steal threat from the MT. How many raids have the MT picking up both the boss and the adds together? Usually the OT needs that bonus enmity to pick up adds easier, and this means PLD has to awkwardly open with flash to do it. Plus OTs have been using enmity generating AoE for years to pick up adds (Overpower, Unleash). Why should PLD be any different?

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Originally Posted by Raim

One last observation to make. What Yoshi said in a recent interview about not making Total Eclipse have bonus enmity make absolutely no sense in the context of 8 man content. He said it would be better if the OT didn't have bonus enmity so they didn't steal threat from the MT. How many raids have the MT picking up both the boss and the adds together? Usually the OT needs that bonus enmity to pick up adds easier, and this means PLD has to awkwardly open with flash to do it. Plus OTs have been using enmity generating AoE for years to pick up adds (Overpower, Unleash). Why should PLD be any different?

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WAR wants to counter attack as many hits as possible.
DRK wants to be hit for blood price, to then spam AoEs as much as possible.

PLD wants to be hit to mitigate the dmg.

In hard content, usually adds need to die asap, hitting the PLD lowers damage done to them.
(I was super relieved when i saw it didnt have threat, for this very reason.)

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

In 4mans, it not having threat will make u ride the line in threat vs DPS.
But for endgame its perfect, as a WAR and DRK need enemies to hit them to do more DPS. (More so WAR than DRK now that blood price is grit onry)
So you dont want to pull off of your other tank when u need to quickly dispatch trash mobs mid savage raid.

In A12S, I would rely on blood price to spam abyssal drain on the adds, but my WAR OT would pull some of the adds off me with overpower, leaving me with less MP generation. (overpower is waaaay more threat than abyssal drain) So i had to use more unleashes before abyssal drain.

My point, this is balanced for endgame as far as I can tell.

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You come across to me as someone who knows their classes so I will make an effort of correcting you here. ^^

WAR doesn't really do more damage when they get hit, that is actually one of the main reasons they OT'd most of HW. The only time you deal extra damage is during the 15 seconds of Vengeance (2min CD). And that depends ENTIRELY on how many PHYSICAL hits you received. This would be noticeable if the bosses dealt multiple hits in 1 buster (Like the first boss in The Fractal Continuum or A10S for example) otherwise it doesn't even matter.

EDIT: Realized it was an AoE discussion. Vengeance does add a bit of damage specially when coupled with berserk in an AoE situation. But it is not so big to matter THAT much if you're staying in Defiance. But I will remain corrected regarding its utility of AoE tanking.

PLD with Shield Swipe and more so DRK with Blood Price, and to a lesser extent Reprisal and Lower Blows resets are the tanks that dealt more (much more if you're DRK) DPS by getting hit.

Also note: Overpower is 120 potency x 5 enmity multiplier, which is exactly the same as DRK's AD. Unleash is 100 potency with a x6 enmity multiplier.

While DRK may be capable of dealing roughly the same DPS as WAR, there's a difference as to where the DPS comes from. Though most base potencies on DRK are higher than WAR and it has a huge portion of its damage coming from oGCDs, WAR has stronger buffs (Maim, Zerk, IR, Unchained, etc). So the reason WAR spamming Overpower generates more than DRK spamming Abyssal Drain is that Maim is 20% while Darkside is 15% AND Overpower being Physical and hence affected by SKILL speed.

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Originally Posted by Raim

One last observation to make. What Yoshi said in a recent interview about not making Total Eclipse have bonus enmity make absolutely no sense in the context of 8 man content. He said it would be better if the OT didn't have bonus enmity so they didn't steal threat from the MT. How many raids have the MT picking up both the boss and the adds together? Usually the OT needs that bonus enmity to pick up adds easier, and this means PLD has to awkwardly open with flash to do it. Plus OTs have been using enmity generating AoE for years to pick up adds (Overpower, Unleash). Why should PLD be any different?

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Having to AOE stuff while the main boss is still on the field isn't all that common. I think it's mostly just Junk Ragnaros in Creator 1 (and his adds ignore enmity) anddddddddddd I guess you can count gordias 2 even though it has no main boss. Not saying it won't come up or it doesn't happen, but generally there's better ways to pick up raid adds than an AOE because usually it's a single thing that needs to be burned down. Plus, if it does come up and it's a huge issue for some reason, you can just set your strategy to have the paladin MT during those adds and have the other guy pick them up.