Guess warriors no longer pull bosses?

unless Im just misreading things (alot of info all coming out in scattered chunks)

Infuriate does nothing while not in combat so i guess warriors cant zerk unchained pull bosses anymore, then let a PLD or DRK take over?

kinda lame TBH

It's a bit early to speculate on the meta, but technically you can tomahawk > infuriate unchained at pull. You just can't pre infuriate and do triple cleave opener. Moreover we have no idea if any changes for pld/drk would make it ideal to pull.

I think tanks get shadewalker now, no? That should make it incredibly easy to not rip aggro off any tank that wants to MT

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheCount

I think tanks get shadewalker now, no? That should make it incredibly easy to not rip aggro off any tank that wants to MT

---

Shirk has the shadewalker icon but as far as I'm aware we have no idea what it actually does/how it works. Even if it is shadewalker, OT openers for all classes generate very little aggro, so it will be less effective than it is on ninja. The only thing that would be really interesting about if shirk was just tank shadewalker would be how it interacts with provoke. If we can use shirk+provoke on the opener to effectively double the MT's aggro (80% of MT's existing aggro + 80% of whatever the OT generated during Shirk's timer), then aggro concerns are effectively over in raid groups (unless DPS are out-aggroing us by a frightening level, which given the STR/VIT/accessory changes seems possible, if not likely).

That said, all of this is wild speculation and we'll find out in two weeks I guess.

I don't think we'll find too much enmity concerns anymore, given that literally every DPS has access to Diversion (Quelling Strikes) now. Even then, if enmity ends up becoming a problem anyways, both tanks could open in tank stance while one of them uses Shirk to generate enmity as two MTs into just one tank. IT would be a DPS loss for the starting off-tank, but might be a gain for both tanks in the long run if it means having to be in tank stance for shorter periods.

I always pulled bosses on my Paladin cause I was main tanking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zumi

I always pulled bosses on my Paladin cause I was main tanking.

---

Not exactly a bad thing to do, but when you optimize both tanks' dps (and to some extent the healers' dps as well), having war pulling the boss lets them build a huge amount of aggro without losing too much dps (not as much as you using halone combo 1-3x in shield oath), and then you can just provoke and use halone once until you need another tank swap. Using royal authority instead of halone is a 90 potency gain per combo, which is quite big.

Doing multiple tank swaps, instead of "main tanking" the entire fight allows you to stack multiple cds (sentinel + rampart and then tank swap instead of just sentinel for one buster, just rampart for the next buster), so you can probably stay in sword oath without straining the healers (most of the time the war's cds aren't really used for anything). I believe this mentality will be helpful especially during early progression where you're less geared.

atm most of endgame wars never use unchained for pull, just Defiance + tomahawk + EQ then change stance thats with shade ofcourse

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gildarts

atm most of endgame wars never use unchained for pull, just Defiance + tomahawk + EQ then change stance thats with shade ofcourse

---

The only caveat is that it requires a NIN currently, however with the changes you can just Shirk the dude who pulls (plus every DPS has quelling now). In all likelihood WAR is still gonna be optimal for pulling, mainly due to their aggro combo not being a DPS loss - there might be some shenanigans you could pull off w/ Shirk + Shadewalker but I have my doubts that that'll prevent a PLD/DRK aggro combo... maybe if the WAR swaps after but that seems pointless. PLD can also Intervention the WAR but idk how fast Oath Gauge builds.

Except for that Spookyghost, shirke requires the user to have aggro to begin with. So you can't shirke on a pull. Shirke simply gives your target your aggro that you have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freemind

Except for that Spookyghost, shirke requires the user to have aggro to begin with. So you can't shirke on a pull. Shirke simply gives your target your aggro that you have.

---

Ahh yeah you're right, thanks for the info. I guess you'll still need NIN for the EQ pull, though Shirk will still be useful after the swap.

With Shirk agro management will be trivialized, you will only screw up this mechanic if you maliciously intend to. My concerns with WAR is the berserk buff duration,stance dance and the dps rotation being really strict in order to achieve the pentacleaves.

If we can pentacleave on pull, that would probably be the best single target enmity generating burst. Triple cleave can already rip hate off MTs in 3.0.

Im curious where WAR will stand in SB at all. It seems like we are becoming worse at AoE at a glance(no more hp absorb+big pulls{/cry}), lower potency with some existing skills, and better at tanking bosses because of rampart+more single target dps(berserk+pentacleave+3xpunch+charge). Its almost as if they wanted WAR to MT more and pull less between. I wish i knew more about what they are becoming..Seems like WAR is just a high hp, single-target-dps, that was given defensive cds. I wonder why there arent many threads on war yet. The silence in war related discussion is sort of unsettling.

Edit: Looks like we cant triple cleave on pull anymore? Well that stinks.. I guess that puts an end to my assumptions of pentacleaving on pull.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xJimmehx

Im curious where WAR will stand in SB at all. . ..Seems like WAR is just a high hp, single-target-dps, that was given defensive cds. I wonder why there arent many threads on war yet. The silence in war related discussion is sort of unsettling.

---

You are right : no one talks about the way they killed the self-healing philosophy of the war. 3.0 gave a real off-tanking job to the war, and now ... war has no job anymore. It will still be less damage mitigated than the PLD, but will not bring anything to the group anymore (slashing added to Sam, so NIN and SAM will do it), so DRK will be the off-tank. Most of the new skills are useless and non consistent with the war abilities. They just added abilities to do more fell cleaves, as if the WAR had no other skill ....

those who play war im pretty sure are wondering what is to become of the job itself(specially on raid position), war is a really rewarding job if play right with self sustain an high dps burst , it needs a lot of planing an memorize mechanics
at least for me that what makes me fell in love with it,yes it receive a lot of changes but i think the trade off of war Def for DPS(selfHeals) feel pretty good on 3.0, i know we did not lose much but is gonna feel really weird not having Bloodbath/mercy stroke an other skills i been so use to since 1.0, i will keep my critics until i play it myself an see how it feels until then i recommend my war fellow to stay put an see what is to become of it, too bad we lose our best raid utility path effect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vigioX-Sun

it receive a lot of changes but i think the trade off of war Def for DPS(selfHeals) feel pretty good on 3.0,...
... i recommend my war fellow to stay put an see what is to become of it, too bad we lose our best raid utility path effect.

---

The problem is that in the same way they said they want to lower the tank dps ... So i'm not sure that war will bring much dps. Sure they could change things until june,16th but for the moment the WAR just loses interesting skills, with no addition of interesting skills... They could imagine any other ways to use the gauge than spamming more fell cleave/decimate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xJimmehx

If we can pentacleave on pull, that would probably be the best single target enmity generating burst. Triple cleave can already rip hate off MTs in 3.0.

---

It's not your fell cleaves that rip aggro, it's your butcher's block lol. One crit butcher's block under berserk generates around as much aggro as three crit fell cleaves under berserk, which is why as OT you shouldn't use butcher's block too often.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aleph_null

It's not your fell cleaves that rip aggro, it's your butcher's block lol. One crit butcher's block under berserk generates around as much aggro as three crit fell cleaves under berserk, which is why as OT you shouldn't use butcher's block too often.

---

I find it weird they did not change our dps to Path or Eye but in animation perspective butcher block must hurt a lot more than a slash.
An yes critical fell cleves are as dangerous as butcher block even after str to vit changes, it does increase a lot of enmity,
But a good MT will not lose hate from OT war even at full butcher block an fell cleves at least on my own experience seen many great PLD/DRK/an WAR go full offensive mode an not lose agro on OT because they can sustain an high DPS#.
So on my opinion is on the player side an nor the skill (also ILV).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vigioX-Sun

I find it weird they did not change our dps to Path or Eye but in animation perspective butcher block must hurt a lot more than a slash.
An yes critical fell cleves are as dangerous as butcher block even after str to vit changes, it does increase a lot of enmity,
But a good MT will not lose hate from OT war even at full butcher block an fell cleves at least on my own experience seen many great PLD/DRK/an WAR go full offensive mode an not lose agro on OT because they can sustain an high DPS#.
So on my opinion is on the player side an nor the skill (also ILV).

---

A good MT would do as little halone or power slash combos as possible since those are huge dps losses, way more than the OT gains (20 potency) from using butcher's block combo over repeating storm's eye combo. If your definition of good MT requires being able to babysit a selfish war OT spamming butcher's block at the cost of total raid dps, let's just agree to disagree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Didje

You are right : no one talks about the way they killed the self-healing philosophy of the war.

---

Losing Bloodbath and SW isn't that big of a deal. Neither of them made up for healer GCDs outside of big puls in dungeons with Vengeance, Berserk, and Bloodbath. SW was good to have in a pinch and Bloodbath is okay in your opener sort of, but they really aren't that big of a deal. We still have Equilibrium, which was our only really important heal to begin with (IB too but that's used less than Equilibrium).

Quote:

---

3.0 gave a real off-tanking job to the war, and now ... war has no job anymore. It will still be less damage mitigated than the PLD, but will not bring anything to the group anymore (slashing added to Sam, so NIN and SAM will do it), so DRK will be the off-tank. Most of the new skills are useless and non consistent with the war abilities. They just added abilities to do more fell cleaves, as if the WAR had no other skill ....

---

While I personally think PLD will be a must-have, I don't think DRK brings to the table anything more interesting than WAR. WAR, in SB, has 3 defensive CDs on a medium recast timer that work on all damage (Rampart, Vengeance, and Thrill of Battle), a Rampart equivalent for physical damage (Raw Intuition), and the shortest recast can't-die ability (Holmgang). DRK, meanwhile, has 3 defensive CDs on a short to medium to long recast timer (Blackest Night, Rampart, Shadow Wall), a high mitigation magic-only CD (Dark Mind), and a long recast can't-die ability (Living Dead). This doesn't take into account IB, Equilibrium, or Shake It Off (SIO is a bit questionable in use but still something DRK doesn't have an equivalent too).

If WAR and DRK are roughly the same damage, then I'd say that DRK and WAR are equally useful. What we got was a change in class flavor, now instead of being the self healing, high damage tank we're the FC bot tank. Which I personally find very boring and probably going to switch to SAM, but not because I think that WAR is in some dire straight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Losing Bloodbath and SW isn't that big of a deal.

---

Seems that inner beast PV regen is reduced too. Path to be confirmed (no more explaination on the "portion" of life it will bring....). Separately it is not a big deal, but together it is going to be a lot. They are removing self healing without adding any. I do not say the war will be bad for tanking : i'm complaining that the philosophy of "tank based on vita regaining is fadding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

WAR and DRK are roughly the same damage

---

Both of them loose their "combo" damage reduction, but DRK will get a shield for himself or any party member that is very usefull as OT, leading to PLD/DRK compositions. The only way to equilibrate the choice would be that WAR will bring a lot more dps than DRK, which i really doubt.

By the way the OT work will be so boring in the future : no new skill... DRK rule as OT will be more diversified so people will prefer playing DRK

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Losing Bloodbath and SW isn't that big of a deal.

---

And do not forget that due to the lost of the flash, for packs you now will have to privilegiate triple cleave for pack enmity to save your PT : that means less inner beast, so less self healing.

An other point : the cost for changing stance is so big that the WAR OT will prefer to tank adds in dps stance at least for the first seconds (the time to empty its gauge). That will make healers nervous.