I've been trying like nobody's business to get the bird from Needhuggs, but for some reason this fight seems to break parties apart like no other I've ever done. It's old content so I expected it to be a quick farm, but there's just something about it I guess.
I've put up farm parties and joined farm parties a few times, but they always dissolve after one clear. Usually what happens is we start and everyone needs a warm-up and we wipe in the last phase, then we start over and clear it, then one or both tanks leave. For a while I thought it was me, but I'm usually among the last standing so now I'm not sure.
I've never been in a farm party where one wipe crashes the party like this! I've seriously not yet been in a Nidhogg party that lasts more than one clear. Is this normal??
NidhoggEX farm parties / EX Primal farms in general
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05-16-2017, 03:07 AMChalbeeNidhoggEX farm parties / EX Primal farms in general
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05-16-2017, 03:19 AMLunaFaye
Yes it's normal, as well as parties that claim to be farm, then you enter the instance and get a bonus message with the answer that it's just an alt, yet that person can't figure out the mechanics most of the times. That and a lot of other things we call a trap party and that happens with most PF advertised parties.
I always suggest, that if you have some friends, get them together and run that trial 2 hrs. In most cases you don't even need to run it that much, but it's a good goal and everybody will be on the same page. You mostly will even find some friends, that want the bird too and are willing to even run longer then that.
But Nidhogg is not old content, I mean I understand why you might think that, sadly old content is more something like Titan X and people already can't beat that one, not even unsync'd or extremely out geared. If you need to stick with PF, well bring a lot of patience or give RF/DF a try. In most cases that works out better then the actual PF with people that are not leaving after the first wipe and understand the basic mechanics. GL -
05-16-2017, 03:22 AMAlphaFox
To me when ever a farm wipes, even if its a silly accident some want to deem it a failure and bail ASAP. Maybe cus it was so close the first time they stick around just for the 1 clear but at the end they leave thinking it will just repeat. Honestly silly, same as those Zurvan groups who claim soar must be skipped, yet it was cleared anyway first shot so lets just disband a group who can actually clear it and take an extra 15secs.
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05-16-2017, 03:28 AMChalbeeIt's just so weird to me? This didn't happen with Thordan or with Sophia when I farmed those out. Farms would occasionally wipe, but we'd laugh it off and keep going. Nidhogg just gets to people I guess. I never tried it when it was fresh so maybe people have lingering animosity from that time period?Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaFox
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05-16-2017, 04:27 AMkattzkitti
As much as people hate to acknowledge it, a lot of the time the dropouts are because people are using a parser and they notice X player not performing to their personal standard of DPS for X player's job. Thus, they drop out because in their eyes, their time is being wasted by that player's lack of "proper" DPS.
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05-16-2017, 06:19 PMArutan
I think nothing can break parties more than Zurvan's soar.
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05-16-2017, 06:22 PMBourne_EndeavorAnother factor is Stormblood. In just over a month from now, people can do all the bird farming they fancy unsynced. So a lot are likely not putting up with even slight mistakes now since it'll be faceroll soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalbee
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05-16-2017, 06:28 PMArutanYeah unsynced is probably one of the worst thing that happened, it's like offering all previous expansion's prestigious rewards on a platinum plateQuote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
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05-16-2017, 06:30 PMBourne_EndeavorEhh, yes and no. Chances are, people wouldn't keep doing old extremes if they weren't unsync-able later on. Granted, a part of me almost thinks that would be a good thing. Or at least lock the pigeons behind synced runs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutan
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05-16-2017, 06:44 PMIsalaEspecially for something like Zurvan, if my co-healer and I are busting our backsides trying to push out as much DPS as possible pre-Soar, and we see it anyway because "I'ma ice mgae lulz!" wants to sit there and do nothing? Yeah. No. I'm not carrying him to a bird, because you know, you KNOW, that everyone else will have terrible rolls, that derp is going to win it, and immediately leave the farm party. I have lost too many birds and ponies to people that can't do DPS, can't tank, can't heal, can't stay on a platform or do mechanics, I'm done. All I need is the Zurvan bird, and I'm not watching it to go another terrible player after countless runs where I carried them. If that makes me a jerk, than so be it.Quote:
Originally Posted by kattzkitti
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05-16-2017, 07:21 PMBourne_EndeavorFunny story about "those players." A group had a LOLgoon who kept making mistakes and lo and behold the bird drops. The guy passed immediately and said in chat he won't touch the bird until he survives the entire fight. Don't think I've ever been so shocked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Isala
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05-16-2017, 09:07 PMWatachyScreen or fake !Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
This guys is the real MVP ! -
05-16-2017, 09:37 PMArutanPeople only do it for mounts, so wheter it is synced or unsynced, people will keep doing it until they got the mount and stop after that, so unsynced just contribute to kill the difficulty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
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05-16-2017, 10:37 PMTexaI did that when the Sophia bird dropped on my clear and the person who coached me through the fight managed to get it. It made me smile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
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05-17-2017, 12:16 AMLineageRazorBe fair. I'm guessing you've never run into an actual "ice mage" in a Zurvan farm, someone whose DPS is low because they CHOOSE to have low DPS. People who farm want to succeed at the farm. They actually DO try to succeed. No, these players have low DPS for other reasons; perhaps because they haven't been able to gear up to the point where skipping Soar becomes possible (believe it or not, there's a LOT of players out there who can only log on for a few hours each week, and for whom capping tomestones on a weekly basis is a pipe dream), or their DPS is under par because they don't know the best ways to maintain their rotations while avoiding damage (this game barely teaches rotations at all, let alone OPTIMAL rotations - and certainly doesn't teach the tricks you can use to maintain DPS even while dodging aoes), or they just plain don't have the reaction time that other players do (whether due to outside things such as server latency, or just the fact that different humans have different reaction times since humans are different from one another).Quote:
Originally Posted by Isala
These players come into the instance with the expectation that they don't need to be the best of the best to successfully farm the content. And, as a matter of fact, they're RIGHT. The content is designed to be winnable, even if the players are not decked out in the finest gear and pixel-perfect in their mastery of their jobs. The trouble with Zurvan is that by making Soar skippable, a very clear and obvious bar was set for DPS requirements, and that bar is MUCH higher than your typical casual player is capable of. So, after the World's First tier players flattened the content never even SEEING first-phase Soar, they dismissed the instance as easy. This gave Zurvan an unfortunate reputation of being a cakewalk, which it only is if you can regularly skip Soar. Far too many folks got into the mindset that if you can't skip Soar, you can't farm.
I've farmed Zurvan a fair amount (still no bird), and not once have I EVER seen Soar skipped in a pick-up party. Not ever. And this wasn't because players weren't trying to succeed, or hoping the rest of the group could do it without them - in fact, most such players have handled the actual Soar mechanic quite well. Players genuinely looking for a "carry" are not nearly as common as folks like to say they are. Rather, these folks are looking for an excuse to exclude the players that don't meet their expectations by pretending that they're being bad on purpose, or out of laziness. "It's not me that's being a jerk for excluding low-dps players - it's the low-dps players who are being jerks because they're not even TRYING to be good-dps, so therefore I'm justified in excluding them!" It's much easier to feel self-righteous when you can pretend that the guy you're stepping on deserves it! -
05-17-2017, 01:28 AMNeophyteYou don't need a parser for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by kattzkitti
A group which neither skips the first dive phase nor the tower phase is not a real farm group.
That simple.
One reason I only do kill groups is that farm groups are usually not above kill group level of skill.
Farm groups are min-max grounds and I can't stay people doing inferior rotations even after 15 runs, because they can't be bothered to improve.
People after 15 clears still act like headless chicken when fang&claw starts.
Tanks who not stack Niddhog on the red tower (or the adds) even after a dozen kills make me cry.
Healers not attacking after 15 kills, but rather doing cumulated 2 mins nothing.
No, thanks. That's ok for a kill group, but farm is 'for quick, optimized kills". You don't need a parser to recognize a real 'farm group'. You only need to know what clear time to expect of a proper group.
And if you're not good enough in a farm group join kill groups!!! Again, again and again, until you feel like you're capable of carrying worse people.
Then you are ready for farm. -
05-17-2017, 01:38 AMNeophyte
This is also the biggest problem.
Just having one kill (aka no bonus) doesn't make you ready to join a farm group. -
05-17-2017, 01:43 AMChalbeeI...didn't even think about this, but yeah this probably makes a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
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05-17-2017, 04:01 AMSepixI agree with you here. I honestly have never seen a group get wrecked by soar. Some people seem to have trouble with the second pattern but you usually still get through it even if 1-2 people die, especially during the first one that everybody wants to skip. From Soar to the ad phase all you do is run around the boss 1 time. You barely even need to heal. There is plenty of time of recover even if you still have dead people during the ad phase because the time limit on those is more than generous as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
The thing that destroys people are the tethers. Not because they suddenly make the fight so much harder, since you still move in the exact same way as before but because of the movement delay between players on the screen. I have seen this a million times. 2 players run to the same meteor, then both try to run over, then both stop, and then both start to panic. The true difficulty with zurvan in random groups comes from the game engine itself and not necessarily from player skill. -
05-17-2017, 02:58 PMRokkuEkkusu
As one who has all birds, here's my perspective on some party patterns:
In Zurvan Extreme, when Soar does happens, most farm parties I've been in can handle the mechanic for the most part. The main problems occur after the ultimate. Either someone gets clipped by Southern Cross, panic during Broken Seal, and/or get knocked out from the aoe attack after Broken Seal. As a result, it will make handling the next Broken Seal much tougher as at least one person will NOT have a debuff necessary to survive being in a meteor circle.
Oh, did I mention I see people still get knocked out from Soar even with Tank LB2.
For Nidhogg Extreme, people usually panic during the first Soul Tether after being spread out so far from each others, or during the Sable Price patterns.
In Thordan Extreme, most of the problems happen during the towers/aoes in KoTR 2 and the Dragoon in the outer part of the arena during KoTR 3. The Dragoon in the outer part of the arena during KoTR 3 is the one that pushes party members off the stage with a straight line aoe with no indicator. -
05-17-2017, 07:18 PMIsalaIf that's the way you want to play, that's fine for you. But I'm sorry you feel I'm in the wrong for not wanting to carry people who do less damage than a White Mage while wearing full 270. At that point, you are not trying. You can't possibly be trying. Even if they used their 2.0 BLM rotation, they'd be doing more DPS than I am. But they're not. And sure. You've "never" seen Soar skipped. Which is even more pathetic. The whole point in running a 1/2/5 comp is specifically to skip Soar. Otherwise, you'd bring two tanks to make the Demon Claw easier later. And it's not like you actually have to do spectacular DPS...That's the worst part. You really don't have to push everything to the limit, if you're wearing the kind of gear a farm party expects to begin with. And I SERIOUSLY doubt the kinds of players who can't do the DPS to skip Soar are magically capable of doing the fight perfectly, because it is ALWAYS the underperformers who eat Southern Cross, laser the entire group, stretch tethers, refuse to get into a puddle because they don't have a color, after dying to one of the previous mistakes... And I say this as someone who has farmed this fight hard enough to buy 9 of the weapons with tokens... Luckily, I managed to roll well enough on the other 4...Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
As for the "self-righteous"? There's nothing self-righteous about it. It's not like I'm kicking him from the group. I'm simply taking the option of finding a group that fits my needs, that will clear faster, and not carry someone to a bird that I had to put all the effort in for. If the rest of the group wants to get him that bird, then they get him that bird, and he can be happy with it. I'm just choosing not to waste my own time, giving someone something that I want, and work for. -
05-18-2017, 12:51 AMLineageRazorI think it's very much the case that a top-notch DPSing healer who knows their stuff can out-damage a casual DPS player who has a poor grasp of their rotations but is still playing with all their heart, even if that casual player has ground out a full set of 270 shire gear. Again, the statement "they can't possibly be trying" indicates that you, and many others, have a very poor grasp of exactly what "average player" really means. This game does not come close to educating players on how to optimize their rotations. Reading the tooltips isn't going to educate you on just how much spell speed you need to fit in that extra Fire IV. It's not going to tell you the times when trying to fit in a second oGCD between GCDs is a bad idea, and when it's a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Isala
To give you some perspective, the vast majority of those pick-up parties I mentioned that never skipped Soar? They WERE 1/2/5 comp! FIVE DPS, all trying their best, couldn't put out enough damage to skip Soar. THAT is what constitutes an average player in this game - and that is why Zurvan is tuned the way it is. SE hasn't tuned the fight to cater to people who "aren't trying". They've tuned the fight to people who don't parse or do online research to maximize their potential. People who believe that as long as they keep their oGCDs on cooldown and keep rotating their DPS combos, they're doing the best that their job is capable of.
You are, of course, welcome to restrict yourself to parties that do not contain average players, but you need to understand that the pool of folks who are above average is much smaller than that high-power players think they are, and as those individuals acquire their birds they're going to be dropping out of the race. You simply can't join any random group of people and expect them to do as well as your static. By allowing yourself to become infuriated by so-called "lazy players", by believing that a party is only "good" if certain mechanics are skipped, you're most likely not going to be collecting those birds until the level 70 cap trivializes the fights, simply because you'll not find enough parties to get the job done.
I see so many players post things that basically boil down to, "It's easy! I can do it! Why can't you do it? You must not be trying!" They just can't seem to understand that setting themselves as the baseline is phenomenally unfair. (Not to mention, doesn't a statement like this imply that they consider themselves to be the worst of the worst? "I can do it, therefore anyone can do it?" - doesn't that mean that they consider everyone else to be as good as, or better than they are?) -
05-18-2017, 01:15 AMNeophyteThat is either a lie or those people were not ready to do the currently hardest trial.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
How do you even know that they were trying their best?
5 dps in >260 gear only do not skip soar (esp. if both healers attacking... they are not? Out of farm and back to kill groups with them. There is almost no incoming damage until Soar) only because of major issues in a rotation and not because you did use your biggest oGCD 2s before trick attack was applied.
Also what about the Stone, Sky, Sea? Did they all beat that without any room for improvement? No? Then it is not their best they can offer. (Zurvan Ex up to first soar is quite a dummy with 2 times moving max.)
I skipped soar in kill groups with 2 buddies, lol.
As said, if you still need practise (rotation wise and mechanic wise) don't join farms. Join kill or learning parties.
Again, "farm" is a player invented concept. Having only one kill and no bonus doesn't make you ready for a farm group per se.
SE has made the content so that you can clear it somehow with subpar damage.
But farming is not 'clearing somehow', it's 'clearing smooth amd quick'.
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Imagine a farm group of Sophia not skipping the first tankbuster (phase 1, before adds. Mpst people don't know that mechanic there).
Or A11s farm with not skipping first phase GA-100, lol.
That's not a farm group either and will always be disbanded. Always. And no one has ever said a thing that this is bad.
Where's the difference? Where to draw the line? -
05-18-2017, 01:36 AMChalbeeThis is my usual approach as well. I won't join a farm without 3~4 successful smooth clears under my belt. The issue I'm noticing with Niddy is that "clear parties" I've joined die to stuff like learning parties might, and the "farm parties" I've joined look much more like clear parties with a lot of avoidable deaths and careless mistakes. It seems unusually difficult to find a group either a) good enough to get the kill in a clear party or b) patient enough to put up with a less-than-perfect farm. It's really infuriating! But from what I've read I must have just been lucky with my other farms to not have to deal with this before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neophyte
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05-18-2017, 01:42 AMDoki
Niddy always seemed to go well for me until the final phase. People refused to grasp the concept of staying stacked for the multiple hits. Overall though, it is just random luck of the draw with groups. When you finnaly get a group that clicks and you knock out like 15 runs it feels so good. I think Sephirot took the most farms for me, and Zurvan was the most painful to get an actual clear for. I dislike that they removed the fights from raid finder. It made it much easier to filter out the liars.
That said, I am so freaking glad I got Firebird before the server moves killed my east coast pings. -
05-18-2017, 01:58 AMthegreatonemaljust run the thing 99 times and stop whining as long as you clear it really doesn't matter. just run the thing 99 times and stop whining as long as you clear it really doesn't matter. and before you go accusing me of being one of them i've run then all and cleared literately hundreds of times and lost birds cuz of low rolls before getting lucky and winning one and having to wait for the others for to token exchangeQuote:
Originally Posted by Isala
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05-18-2017, 02:34 AMMaero
One other issue (maybe just server specific) is the day after new fight was released party finders were mostly filled with no newbies, must skip soar, etc...
This has happened since Sophia was released. The community has really changed for sure
I also will agree that in many so called "farm parties" there is always one or multiple people who had not done the fight beforehand, perhaps because of the reason above (not able to find groups) but i rarely expect people to be honest in pf -
05-18-2017, 03:51 AMLineageRazorDo they make the bad thing dead without any wipes? It's a farm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neophyte
To expect anything more than that, be sure you get all your farming done with the EARLY farm parties - the early farms are populated entirely by the pros who know the ins and outs of their jobs, the folks who are able to farm while the average players are still struggling to get their first clears. Once the average players start to get wins, duty finder becomes diluted. At this point, fishing for parties full of pros becomes harder and harder. Once the first few weeks of farming are over, you've got to lower your standards or be prepared for a lot of frustration. Judging by your posts in this thread, you've chosen the frustration route. It's not one I recommend!