What are peoples aversions to letters?

So I've noticed a growing trend with some players. In Void Ark I always like to place letters down for my self and others who may be new in the parties. However recently people have taken to erasing them.

When I politely ask them to stop they'd just say stuff like "old content is old" or "its 2017 dude"

Even if you don't need the letters I feel its rude to erase the letters. You may not need them but others do. Please be courteous and leave them where they are.

I don't think they have an aversion to anything, just a love of being a pain in the kupo nut.

Pretty sure they do it to mess with people like you who get all upset over tactics for content that barely requires them anymore.

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Originally Posted by hobostew

Pretty sure they do it to mess with people like you who get all upset over tactics for content that barely requires them anymore.

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This. Plus, if letters are consistently placed left to right and you've run more than one raid with said letters, they quickly become unnecessary. For all but one boss (Echidna), they just read left-to-right: A, B, and C.

B takes center, and A either goes left or clockwise 120* and C right or counter-clockwise 120*... At that point the letter are useful only if there's so much confusion that it'd be difficult to find otherwise unmarked stacking points (e.g. for Cure III).
...Can't remember that ever being necessary in a 24-man, though, except on one really shitty fat boss attempt when Void Ark was released.

All in all I consider the letters, though less so than erasing them, wasted effort. (Really though, even if they're there... why then take the extra time to erase them? Whoever likes them REALLY likes them if they're still putting them up, and it's just going to reappear, so you're not fighting the gaudy... you're just wanting to hit buttons unhelpfully -- whereas the other guy was at least helping himself.)

When im in a trial or dungeon if i know everyone has done the content and theres that 1 person who puts markers on either me or the healer, i just cancel them out. I tell them we dnt need the markers.

Having seen people mess up who goes where a lot in the raids, I dont think its a safe or very good assumption to say "old everyone knows it". Seems like a personal assertion on 23 other people, that's dangerous lol.

I get that you'd expect people to know it, especially if its old. But I'm not certain they're wasted even now at this point. I see a lot of mess up on the trio add points and such like that if they're not labeled.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Having seen people mess up who goes where a lot in the raids, I dont think its a safe or very good assumption to say "old everyone knows it". Seems like a personal assertion on 23 other people, that's dangerous lol.

I get that you'd expect people to know it, especially if its old. But I'm not certain they're wasted even now at this point. I see a lot of mess up on the trio add points and such like that if they're not labeled.

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People also forget that not everyone is as coherent as they are. Even though I've run the content several times I still sometimes get dissoriented and find the letters helpful. I think it just boils down to are you going to be "that" guy. Its not only a wasted effort like Shurrikhan said its also not hindering you in any way. so why be rude and hinder those who do find them helpful?

I see a lot of people place them incorrectly, especially on the last boss of void arc.

I was in Leviathan HM today as MNK and had this. There was no bonus so everyone had done it before, but we had both tanks on the head (so I was tanking tail) and a mage was standing near me also attacking the tail and getting hit by the reflect. So I took a sec to point this out and someone said something to the effect that this was old content and didn't matter. I get that we weren't going to wipe because of these little things, but why not just do it right for a speedier clear if nothing else?

Because this is NA servers, were we need signs to tell the players, even though some logic in the place/party letter your assigned at the beginning of the 24 men duty, what your priorities are.

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

So I've noticed a growing trend with some players. In Void Ark I always like to place letters down for my self and others who may be new in the parties. However recently people have taken to erasing them.

When I politely ask them to stop they'd just say stuff like "old content is old" or "its 2017 dude"

Even if you don't need the letters I feel its rude to erase the letters. You may not need them but others do. Please be courteous and leave them where they are.

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Some people just love to troll and get people upset, once you run into those partly formed premades with the intent of failing runs, you see what I mean. That thok was not fun at all =/

Also back went it was more relevant and current lock out on weekly, my friend saw this once on ozma. (She was placing the drop markers and her tank kept removing them) I forgot how she knew who the person was doing it, but after a wipe and for some other reasons, they kick the tank and it suddenly stopped. I think she didn't like the tank for cleaving her party with the light beam or something and asked them to move to a side and didn't cooperate. Also a big factor in that wipe was from the markers not being there, there was a lot of misplaced meteors, so that added to her being upset over them being removed.

I've never really noticed this trend myself, but I can imagine it's mostly because of trolls or elitists claiming that the content is outdated.

It's generally a rude thing to do, but I guess finding either of those players something you can't avoid in the 24-man raids.

I appreciate helpful letters that point out where groups should stand because a lot of people don't know where to go even if they've run the content before (because they don't have to memorize it if they have a letter there). Otherwise, unhelpful letters are the unnecessary ones which don't actually help the group and just sick big, neon floating letters in the way obstructing your view.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Having seen people mess up who goes where a lot in the raids, I dont think its a safe or very good assumption to say "old everyone knows it". Seems like a personal assertion on 23 other people, that's dangerous lol.

I get that you'd expect people to know it, especially if its old. But I'm not certain they're wasted even now at this point. I see a lot of mess up on the trio add points and such like that if they're not labeled.

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Reread my post, i said markers on me or the healer, not the A,B,C,D markers. and usually the dps who put the markers for some reason.

I read the title as, 'Aversion to Live Letters,' and was about to respond, 'I don't have an aversion to them, its just a little tricky keeping up when I don't understand the Producer's Native Language. I'm trying to watch more of them though.'

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Originally Posted by JisKing98

Reread my post, i said markers on me or the healer, not the A,B,C,D markers. and usually the dps who put the markers for some reason.

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Was more a response to the mate above you :). (Who I know means well, just think for something like raid that they can always be helpful- doubtful all 24 have a solid understanding/don't want a little help - even if you have it perfect they're awesome when tired lol).

OP was more leaning to the letters on the ground, I don't think there is any situation where the players need the on top of character makers in generic raid content (more of a pvp and ex/savage thing). I might understand if someone marks everyone with squares and whatever and then another removes it cause there is nothing that needs it lol.

I find the markers helpful even in old content. Circular arenas are my bane; I get turned about easily.

As for marking tanks, it is useful to see where they are in a chaotic fight (especially the lalafel). Can't heal them if they're out of range, nor are classes distinct any more with all the glamors.

Letters are super awesome for cloud of darkness. And I always mark the heck out of the moogles or it's usually a wipe.

I came into this thread expecting it to be about people who say "que" and was disappointed.

I think marking healers/tanks is super handy (for visibility), but I've only seen people do it a handful of times and I don't do it myself because I feel annoying.

I don't go so far as to erase the letters, but I do go out of my way to purposefully go to the wrong spot if they are put up. If anything, it's to prove to the person that set down the letters that they are, in fact, pointless, and even if the group does fuck up and go wherever, the content is so outdated and old that it doesn't matter, you're gonna win anyway.

Only time this backfired on me is in WoD...when one group was enclosed with a cloud consisted of 5 people total, and two of them were healers. I guess letters were needed there, cause when we finished there were soooo many achievements handed out for completing the raid map.

Fortunately I haven't noticed it as much on the EU servers as much as NA.

That being said though, if someone does, I have NO problem whatsoever remarking them. Couldn't care less if I'm not doing enough damage, if they don't like the markers, then challenge accepted.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

I don't go so far as to erase the letters, but I do go out of my way to purposefully go to the wrong spot if they are put up. If anything, it's to prove to the person that set down the letters that they are, in fact, pointless, and even if the group does fuck up and go wherever, the content is so outdated and old that it doesn't matter, you're gonna win anyway.

Only time this backfired on me is in WoD...when one group was enclosed with a cloud consisted of 5 people total, and two of them were healers. I guess letters were needed there, cause when we finished there were soooo many achievements handed out for completing the raid map.

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How does this behavior "send a message" in any way shape or form? All your doing is hindering the progress of your raid group. This kind of behavior is incredibly petty and rude.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

Really...I almost look at people setting up letters in an old raid as I do tanks that place '1, 2, and 3' in normal dungeons: An Insult. It is insulting to me that you think you have to hold my hand, and tell me what to fight, and where to go, when I am capable of taking care of myself. Stop it. Stop it now.

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There are other people there besides you... it doesn't have to be about them thinking "you" need it.. ;/

I agree OP. I am not sure how players are exactly hindered by someone putting up the letters. I mean if they put them up in the wrong direction or something like that then I can understand that someone would erase them but if they are correctly put I am not exactly sure why that would be a problem. But seeing how RuleofThree behaves..well sometimes I should not be surprised anymore..

I mean its not like putting up the letters takes such a long time or something..>_> and I am quite sure if newer players mess up because they have no idea where to go people like RuleofThree would rage so much about them too..I like putting up the letters for Ozma simply because you can use them to show newer players where to put one meteor..yet I also had people that changed it back. Because having the letters just there as a marker to show where to stand at the beginning (when everyone is already there) is way better than showing them where to put one meteor..

Some people really should grow up. ._.

I also think it's rude and petty to remove markings when someone puts them there for themself and feel like they need it. They don't cause anyone who knows what they're doing any harm (assuming they're placed correctly, of course), but some people in the instance may find them helpful. So why go through extra trouble just to be an ass?

Edit: Reading more of the thread, I see some people see someone else's marks as personal insults. :D Oh how fragile can one's ego be...

I like to us the letters and the signs too. Letters and sign get used in PvP, raids also 24man content.
When I get the chance to play tank in 24mans I like to put signs on the alliance healers/tanks. I find this very helpful while I MT the boss, I can check at a glance that the other OT is getting "that one big add," I can see real quick that the healers are doing ok. In the heat of things letters and signs help out.
We shouldn't think of them as shameful training wheels.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

It is insulting to me that you think you have to hold my hand, and tell me what to fight, and where to go, when I am capable of taking care of myself. Stop it. Stop it now.

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http://i.imgur.com/nlz3swr.png

Yeah, just shut up.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

Look...I get pointers in relatively new content.

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You realise that not everyone has played this game for an equal amount of time, right? Some have only started this game a month ago, and for them the content is as new than it was to you and me three years ago.

Never had problems with them in EU.
I place them when needed. Nobody removes them or complains.

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Originally Posted by Taika

You realise that not everyone has played this game for an equal amount of time, right? Some have only started this game a month ago, and for them the content is as new than it was to you and me three years ago.

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Oh, I know it's not going away. So long as their are markers and pointers, people mark and point until the end of time. If something is being run blind, or with 5-6 or more players new in an 8-man, or maybe 10-12 new in a 24 man. Alright, I concede, mark the place up. Light it up with colorful fireworks. Hate it, but I'm not gonna tear it down like the OP has suggested seeing done.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

B takes center, and A either goes left or clockwise 120* and C right or counter-clockwise 120*...)

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that's some weird logic. if B is North for example, you're saying
A goes left (West) or clockwise (which is basically right and East)
C goes right(East) or counter-clockwise (which is basically left and West)

if that's the common logic its no wonder so many people still get it wrong...

not that it matters anyway but by design A should be centre, and B left and C right. last boss of void ark for example when echidna splits into 3 she'll always be north and target A's Tank the snake on her left targets B's tank and the snake on her right targets c's tank. the way people typically do it you end up seeing all 3 dance around and switch places which means it takes longer for them to split up.. (every second counts in this age of must go fast speed run all the things) doesn't really matter but ya know just a small gripe...

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Originally Posted by Dzian

not that it matters anyway but by design A should be centre, and B left and C right.

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Afaik, that's the way the mechanics are designed for 24man raids.

However, it does make sense to follow Shurrikhan's reasoning. What they mean is essentially placing the letters in alphabetical order from west -> north -> east, which makes sense imo. For the other way though A being north makes sense, but B and C being west and east makes far less sense.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

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The place markers are in use for contents, where 1 or all of each group have to stand at a specific place in a specific moment or a wipe is coming. Example: Cloud of Darkness (where 3 areas get closed and the objects in those areas have to get destroyed fast) and Ozma (right meteor placing)

Nobody need markers in Zombie Dragon fight, because the plates are already like markers (pull the skeletons to the last plates).

for me I hate them because sometimes i cant see people

but I dont take them down either.. so

I see it a lot on Echidna... I had someone erase my markers repeatedly because I needed to "learn my alphabet". I put A in the middle because they get echidna and it keeps the snakes far apart.

Also that was the only time I saw a wipe... because in the confusion the tanks decided to put the snakes close together... bear in mind I came to void ark in like 3.2 and it was already old, and this happened in like 3.4. It was embarrassing, but not for me.

If you don't like em, ignore em. It's not hard.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

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It wouldn't be ideal for a fight that has auto-targeting adds like Echidna, but otherwise it's just the idea of reading A, B, C, from left to right across your screen. Whether common "logic" or not, it's what I see 98% of the time (the only exception being, again, Echidna). B can be south or north, or whatever, depending on where the raid is facing at entry to the boss; it's just "center". It's just the idea that the middle letter goes middle and the other two fan out to the sides, whether that's requires an angular shift as well or not. They then spread and collapse as mechanics and cross-healing require (the latter never really occurring unless an alliance has lost their healers).

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

The way he stated is how it's done on the Japanese servers. It's quite logical considering that's how the parties are arranged when you first come into the content.

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Having played on Ragnorak, Cactuar, Balmung, and Tonberry, I've actually never seen anything else. I haven't see anything else in Youtube footage of these 24-mans either, apart from Echidna. In 8-mans that require coordination, A may be the first placed, and then B and C around it, but in everything else I've only ever seen left-to-right / read-order placement.

I personally don't mind the letters. Sure there's some content I ran at least a million times, but that doesn't mean others have done the same, and there have been occasions were markers could have prevented a wipe, if placed right from the start and not after everybody died 3 times and we needed to find replacement. Some people are very impatient and they can't wait the 2 seconds it takes to place the markers, yet this are the first people that try to ignore everything because it's old content, even tho some mechanics in specific fights/instances can't be skipped, no matter how hard you're trying.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

that's some weird logic.

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The way he stated is how it's done on the Japanese servers. It's quite logical considering that's how the parties are arranged when you first come into the content.