I think we should complain about how poorly implemented Living Dead is a little more

And Holmgang while we're at it. Because this https://i.imgur.com/kgJbFBg.jpg is making me want to use the ability less and just let my healer believe it was his fault. For context, this log takes place within the span of about three seconds. The animation had finished and the icon was already on my bar for a full second before i was killed.

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Originally Posted by Iwillnevertell

And Holmgang while we're at it. Because this https://i.imgur.com/kgJbFBg.jpg is making me want to use the ability less and just let my healer believe it was his fault. For context, this log takes place within the span of about three seconds. The animation had finished and the icon was already on my bar for a full second before i was killed.

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Living Dead is honestly a poster child for tanks everywhere in that it is literally a scapegoat for dozens of mistakes that culminated in its own perceived failure in situations like this.

Tank dies, or loses aggro, instantly its the tank's fault.

Was the healer shielding? Was Virus or Disable or the like used? Did people Quell? Did the NIN Shadewalker? Was the tank topped? Was their co-tank being irresponsible with enmity?

None of this is to say the tank for certain did not make a mistake, but there is shared culpability here. Its all a team effort.

Same thing with LD. LD goes off, tank dies, instantly its LD's fault.

What cooldowns did the tank use or not use prior to LD? What was the nature of the damage that required LD to be used? What was the healer doing that LD was a necessity in the first place? Why weren't the mobs dead already? Was LD being used with a macro causing input delay?

Court's in session, lets investigate. \o/

I see from the chat log that a Blood Price tick returned only 106 MP, so its safe to say this was not a level 60 instance, but the fact that LD was usable at all indicates that it was certainly level 50 or above. The hit that killed you was 365 damage. For a hit that pitiful to kill a tank at level 50 or above indicates that numerous things were already going wrong prior to LD's usage. Perhaps most damning is the fact that, for a hit of 365 damage to have killed you means that you chose to wait until you had less than 365 HP or less to use LD. Bluntly, but respectfully, the fault is with you, not the ability.

Therefore, I submit that what happened to you cannot be blamed on LD, and that LD works as intended for what it is designed for and that is neutralizing massive, scripted damage with proper team coordination. Honestly, a lot of playing DRK well requires team coordination. That is a recurring theme with the job, at least for now. I'd accept it and just suck it up for the next 40 days at least.




EDIT: Upon looking a second time, you were defeated by the steersman, whereas the lodesman was the last one to register damage on you. The steersman hit you immediately prior to that, and also prior to you using LD. Without more information, my suspicion is that the steersman killed you in the same fraction of a second that you used LD, but after the lodesman's attack and damage was queued by the server, causing it to to appear to have hit you after the actual killing blow.

This means you literally waited until the server was in the middle of flagging you as dead to use LD. =/

TL;DR the guy that killed you landed the killing blow before you actually used LD. Ipso facto, it was not LD's fault.

it is a striking flaw with the game but abilities have worked like this for some time now and they have not been changed. change would be good, but many players play the game with abilities as they are right now so it's not to say that they are not dependable.

Living Dead has a pretty lengthy duration and because of that it should be used proactively. If you are noticing you are getting low and taking more damage than you are being healed for then you should use it at that moment. Yes, you may waste it this way sometimes but at least you won't be dead because you used it too late.

It looks like you used LD, got KOed and the healer didn't heal you enough to prevent the autodeath.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

It looks like you used LD, got KOed and the healer didn't heal you enough to prevent the autodeath.

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They never gained the effect of Walking Dead so this didn't happen.

Sorry I don't play in E, so some effects are not well known to me from the name.

But you can read in the log, that the killing blow hits before "You use Living Dead".

I was in Sastasha (Hard) on the trash pull before the boss. 9 enemies each doing 300-400 damage to my 9449 healthpool. I waited so long because i was confident in the healer. Suddenly, my health is dropping faster than i expected it to, even with Shadow Skin. I waited until i was at 2000 health to pop Living Dead. By the time the animation was through, i was at 1000 health. By the time the buff appeared on my bar, i was at 500 health. By the time Living Dead had ticked to 9 seconds, i was at 0 health.

Funny character limit.

I won't pretend to know how the developers intended the ability to be used because i am not one of them, but from the description it gives, while the buff is on the player and their health reaches 0, they will be put into a state where they must be healed or they will die. That description does not imply its intended use is to negate scripted sequences of damage. If that were the case, then what is even the point of giving the player the ability outside of these sequences? If that was their intention, then that is poorly implemented when considering the rest of the game.

I think that it is very clear from the tooltip that it requires coordination which is not something you can really expect by default in a dungeon. The fact that it requires healing = coordination. The fact that it puts you in a prepared state of Living Dead during which your death procs the actual buff/debuff = use it for scripted damage. Its entire design screams "you should use this when you KNOW something bad is coming in the next 10 seconds and other people need to know that you're using it so you don't die". Its design screams "use this to neutralize scripted damage with coordination from your team mates". So you see, it may not say that literally, but it implies it pretty heavily. It doesn't say that... but it kinda does.

Lots of things are useful for 1 situation but not for others. Most PLD's don't use Flash in a boss fight with no adds, so why does SE even give them Flash outside of dungeons/boss fights with adds? =/

Idk, I'm just going off of what I saw in that screenshot. LD isn't really a pug friendly ability and DRK isn't really a pug-friendly job. There are some jobs in this game that are just utterly fail-proof and its just not one of them. Its been out for 2 years though and in that time there've been probably hundreds or close to hundreds of threads complaining about it and yet in coordinated groups it proves to be very powerful time and time again. Idk what went wrong that you just suddenly started taking more damage or what but I know LD isn't a dungeon or pug-friendly ability, I just never use it in dungeons. Tbh I've never had to. The only dungeon friendly tank ultimate is Hallowed Ground which to me is only fair since everything else about PLD is crap for dungeons (their lack of AoE for instance).

In any case I don't believe that the shortcomings of LD are wholly responsible for what happened to you.

Living dead's perks are only....................................................... it lasts longer than Holmgang and it's a shorter recast than Hallowed Ground..... It's most optimal use is with a whm healer that can use benediction. Oh one other semi-perk, you have more prep time!! for example all of you that are dying due to activation issues have poor timing or extremely disgusting lagg! you get a full 10 sec to die and still gain the effect of walking dead; the animation and gaining the status effect (both sequences combined) doesn't take 10 sec!! Even if it took 6 sec (lulz impossible............) you'd still have 4 sec of prep time for that OH SHIT I'M GONNA DIE NEXT HIT attack(s).


Nevertheless outside a whm mage the skill is subpar to the other tank immunities. I'd like to see a very simple fix. Still make it require 100% restoration, BUT while walking dead you take 0 dmg like Hallowed ground! This will make it less of a fight for healers to pump out an HPS much higher than your inc dmg.

The order of healing difficult for the immunities will remain Hallow > Holmgang> LD and I think that is a fair trade off given the recast timers and flexibility (activation timing)

note: Holmgang requires more precise timing than the other 2 if you want to optimize usage

The only thing I would ask that they add onto DRK was when WD comes on that it grants healing a extra 50% or something.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

It looks like you used LD, got KOed and the healer didn't heal you enough to prevent the autodeath.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

Sorry I don't play in E, so some effects are not well known to me from the name.

But you can read in the log, that the killing blow hits before "You use Living Dead".

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To clarify, Dark Knight's "cheat death" ability is called Living Dead. It applies a buff with the same name and lasts ten seconds. Upon taking lethal damage, the Living Dead buff is replaced by Walking Dead which lasts ten seconds. If the Dark Knight is not brought to full health after those ten seconds the result is fatal.

In this scenario, Living Dead was applied a fraction of second before the fatal blow landed. This was not enough time for the server to recognize the activation of Living Dead. For that reason, there was never an opportunity for Walking Dead to come into effect.

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Originally Posted by javid

This will make it less of a fight for healers to pump out an HPS much higher than your inc dmg.

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This is not how LD works. You have to be healed for x, where x=your maximum HP. Whatever damage you are taking during the immunity is wholly irrelevant.

(10K HP) - > LD - > 10K damage taken - > WD (1 HP) - > 5K heal (5K HP) - > 2K damage taken (3K HP) - > 5K heal - > WD cleansed (even though you still only have 8K/10K HP).

Idk I'm really truly not trying to be a jerk but I really don't understand how such a controversial ability with so many eyes on it still has so many people not understanding its mechanics after 2 years, and then suggesting adjustments even without that basic understanding of how the ability works.

I'm not saying it doesnt work as it was designed. When it does work, it works fine. I'm saying it's not implemented very well. Its poor responsiveness and massive delay makes it much less effective than a 30% damage reduction and Convalescence. In the heat of the moment, though, one button press is better than two, especially with animation lock. We get Flash, though it's not effective against a single target like a boss, because it doesn't just lose its intended effect in a boss fight. It still generates threat. Which is why i think Living Dead being designed specifically for scripted sequences of damage is wrong. The difference is that Flash is more responsive when it comes to player input. If the intent was to have Living Dead *only* be useful for stopping specifically planned damage and be completely worthless everywhere else, it's a badly implemented ability and i doubt that was their intention.

The problem isn't really the ability so much as it is the delay between the ability being used and the server recognizing it was used. The same thing happens with Hallowed, Benediction, and even Lustrates.

You were killed before Living Dead was up, so you used it a little too late. If it had been used in time, you would have become Walking Dead and there would have been a chance to save you.

There's also an issue with healers seeing Living Dead and spam healing before Walking Dead even takes effect, so you live a little longer but may not have Walking Dead up for something like a tankbuster that was still incoming.

There is no delay issue really.... nobody has 10 secs of server delay (if you do............maybe raiding isn't the thing for you). Tanks need to be better at assessing their situation at least 2-5 sec prior to inc shit-storm. If you're having to mash the skill 1 sec or .5sec prior to death you need to better your assessment of your critical situations. It's the only of the 3 immunities that offer prep time

Note hallow ground animation/status effect sequence is worst than LD....js

OP, this is supposedly an intentional limitation of these abilities, according to the developers. They've been asked about Hallowed Ground, Holmgang, and Benediction before (which all have similar or worse issues), and that's how they've responded. However, it's not just these abilities that have that activation delay - if you try to catch a tank buster super late in its cast bar, it will ignore your last-second Sentinel or whatever because the server hasn't acknowledged that you used it yet.

Basically, you're right in that it's implemented poorly. A ton of complaining has already been done, though, and it seems unlikely that any more will actually have any effect.

The activation period, while a nuisance, isn't really the main problem with any of the tank invincibility moves. Mitigation is meant to be proactive, not reactive. To be honest, the biggest problem with Hallowed was waiting for the cooldown to reset between pulls during raid progression, and that was addressed when the devs made your cooldowns reset on wipes.

The biggest problem with Living Dead in particular is that it forces a level of coordination which is simply not required for either of the other two tank invincibility moves, for a lot less value in return. People tend to forget that the "invincibility" period for LD also ends when the healer cleanses the debuff. So while you could get a full 9 seconds of survival out of it with a last second Bene or focused healing combined with some inhuman mental math (wait until 9 seconds have passed to heal up that last hp!), you're probably going to get a much shorter duration out of it. While the recast is shorter than Hallowed (5 minutes vs. 7), the recast isn't short enough to get an extra use out of it, like Holmgang.

It's also bizarre to place the most healing intensive debuff on the tank which has the least amount of self-healing. Granted, traditionally in FF Dark Knights have had life stealing skills built into the job, but most of those sorts of abilities are on WAR for some reason.

I'm sure that more people would be happy with it if you either had some way of dealing the debuff yourself, or if it offered something special that the other two tank invincibility cooldowns does not. Right now, it's a lot of extra effort for a cooldown which attempts to find a middle ground between Hallowed and Holmgang, and falls short of both in the process. I would like to see this addressed.

Yess!! Healers can shaft drks by healing too soon........... but the only perk of this CD over the other tanks is prep time. 10 secs heads up is huge!!!! Image if you could precast HGs 10 sec before you needed it?!!

That sounds like it would be incredibly useful in a game with encounters that aren't as perfectly scripted as this one. Also, even if you don't time Hallowed, you still get use out of it because it negates all damage and prevents you from getting vuln debuffs. You don't have to wait to reach 1 hp for it to start working.

You know, if you're really that keen on Living Dead, I'd happily trade you for Hallowed on DRK.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

You know, if you're really that keen on Living Dead, I'd happily trade you for Hallowed on DRK.

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With the current game tuning such precise timing is only optimize by hardcore raiders that want to skip a healing gcd here and there. You're right to the nominal crowd such flexibility is unnoticed.

However between Holmgang and LD that setup time is notable in a few encounters.

Ex: optimal tank swap in a10s HG too soon and that aoe following the buster can kill you (if you don't self heal or get healer attention) while with drk you can press LD as soon as you see the tether appear and you're good to go all the way thru the buster + the aoe (I think you can actually fit both aoes?). Very minor stuff but optimize raiders take notice of these perks.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

This is not how LD works. You have to be healed for x, where x=your maximum HP. Whatever damage you are taking during the immunity is wholly irrelevant.

(10K HP) - > LD - > 10K damage taken - > WD (1 HP) - > 5K heal (5K HP) - > 2K damage taken (3K HP) - > 5K heal - > WD cleansed (even though you still only have 8K/10K HP).

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Everyone that liked this answer including the poster are all incorrect..... you will not lose the effect of WD by simply outputting the heals = to the max HP pool of the drk. If the Drk's hp doesn't get to exactly 100%......the drk willl die..... in this REALITY the rate at which you fill his HP ANNNNNDDD the rate as which dmg is inc most definitely impact how successful you will be at making the drk reach 100% HP.

I am wrong; you will lose the effect if you obtain cures = to the sum total of your max HP EVEN if you're subsequently losing HP due to incoming dmg.

HOWEVER THE BURDEN OF THE SKILL IS ON THE HEALER TO KEEP TRACK OF HOW MUCH HE/SHE HAS HEAL THE DRK FOR SINCE THE DRK ENTERED INTO WD MODE. Which isn't easy to keep track of unless you already knew ahead of time what your cures are worth and how many of them would be equal to the DRK's MAX HP and made sure that precast heal you just did, didn't land BEFORE WD effect....being off my even 1 hp = death......so while TECHNICALLY drk doesn't have to be
MAX HP/MAX HP it cumbersome for the nominal player to be assured he has healed for sum total of MAX HP over that 10 sec window IF the DRK isn't MAX HP/MAX HP.

To help better indicate that the WD effect has been removed an added animation would be much favored. Something that POPS at you once the requirement is met.

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Originally Posted by javid

Everyone that liked this answer including the poster are all incorrect..... you will not lose the effect of WD by simply outputting the heals = to the max HP pool of the drk. If the Drk's hp doesn't get to exactly 100%......the drk willl die..... i.

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You're wrong.

They will lose the effect.

No, they don't need to be at exactly 100%.

@OP
Not too sure why you're using living dead with a PUG any way, more so if you did the last pull right before the final boss in satasha hard. From personal experience a good deal of healers won't know that WD has proct and will let you hit the ground -- as stated before it's best used in situations with a. healers you know that will catch it, and B. when you know something huge is about to eat your face about 10 seconds in advance.

They upvoted Syz's answer because it's correct. The effect ends when the DRK has received healing equal to their total health. Your current hp does not matter. For example, if your healer tries to continuously heal you up through Holy Scourge, they'll accidentally cleanse the effect early, even if your current hp never reaches the maximum value. The same was true if you were taking Perpetual Ray without a swap during Onslaughter in A8S.

Here's an extra bit of trivia: prior to patch 3.01, the Walking Dead effect did not count overhealing. So if you cast Bene on your DRK and they didn't take any further damage (such as if you were cheesing Double Prey in Rav Ex), your DRK would die despite being at max health. You needed to take an extra bit of damage (by standing in the fire) to get the healing for that last 1 hp to count and survive. I've done experiments with this before and after.

From a design standpoint, if there are tanks out there who struggling to understand the concept behind Living Dead, how are your teammates supposed to intercede on your behalf to save you? Most people don't read their own tooltips, let alone those related to another player. I'd really much rather be self-sufficient, so that if there's a mistake that arises from its usage, it's my own.

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Originally Posted by javid

Everyone that liked this answer including the poster are all incorrect..... you will not lose the effect of WD by simply outputting the heals = to the max HP pool of the drk. If the Drk's hp doesn't get to exactly 100%......the drk willl die..... in this REALITY the rate at which you fill his HP ANNNNNDDD the rate as which dmg is inc most definitely impact how successful you will be at making the drk reach 100% HP.

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No, SyzzleSpark is correct.

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Originally Posted by javid

There is no delay issue really.... nobody has 10 secs of server delay (if you do............maybe raiding isn't the thing for you).

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It is a delay issue, though, albeit not a 10 second delay issue. The delay involved is the delay between you activating the skill and the server recognizing that you did. This may be a second for some, or longer for others, depending on their ping. All tank "oh shit" buttons have this, and even healer "oh shit" heals do as well (the amount of times I've hit Essential Dignity, seen it heal someone, and them die as the animation shows on them, are numerous). As another poster stated, this was an intentional design by the developers since these skills are so "OP."

My guess just based on the OP's post is that they probably have a high ping, which is why they said they saw the buff active on their status bar for a good second or two, but still ended up dying, because the killing blow actually landed before their activation of Living Dead. It just wasn't registered on their end until after. This is probably the result of having a high ping, though without them showing a traceroute of their ping to SE's server, this is just speculation.

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Tanks need to be better at assessing their situation at least 2-5 sec prior to inc shit-storm. If you're having to mash the skill 1 sec or .5sec prior to death you need to better your assessment of your critical situations. It's the only of the 3 immunities that offer prep time

Note hallow ground animation/status effect sequence is worst than LD....js

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I can agree tanks need to be proactive when it comes to managing defensive cooldowns. Just as healers need to be with their panic heals. I activate Living Dead when I hit around 20-25% health, not when I'm literally on the brink of dying. I don't have problems with the buff not taking effect; most of my issues just stem from healers not understanding how the cooldown works, and they usually fail to heal me adequately enough to cleanse my Walking Dead status.

High ping can be a real bitch in this game. And while that's not the fault of the player, it's also not the fault of an ability not working as intended. If you have a high ping, you can easily do just as well as someone with a low ping; you just need to know the right moment to activate oh shit buttons like Living Dead, so that they're proactive and work effectively rather than reactive and fail to work at all.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

It is a delay issue, though, albeit not a 10 second delay issue.

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....if its not 10 sec then its not an issue its more like an "adjustment"

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

High ping can be a real bitch in this game. And while that's not the fault of the player, it's also not the fault of an ability not working as intended. If you have a high ping, you can easily do just as well as someone with a low ping; you just need to know the right moment to activate oh shit buttons like Living Dead, so that they're proactive and work effectively rather than reactive and fail to work at all.

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The skill you said... just like every cd... requires server acceptance, so it IS working as intended; " ... you just need to know the right moment to activate ..."; unless your latency accounts for 3+ second delay!!!(rip) (which around that case all your WS (on the server side) would be noticeably lagging behind your client's execution.

I respectfully disagree that any delay less than a 10 second delay would just be considered an "adjustment." A delay is a delay, be it 1 second or 10. Both require adjustments, most definitely, longer delays requiring more than shorter delays. But there isn't a requirement for when a delay can be considered a delay.

And again, the oh-shit buttons have intentional design delays on top of delays caused by higher pings. If an individual is unfortunate enough to have such a high ping, then they need to adjust cooldown usage, among other things, such as moving out of the projected AOEs in time for the server to register that they moved. I have a friend who played on a popoto laptop for the longest time (we're talking max 12 FPS), and had an extremely high ping, and yes, he would get clipped by AOEs sometimes, but he still managed to raid Savage content. High ping doesn't mean people can't raid, and I'm not sure where the raiding comment even came from, since this occurred in a level 50 dungeon.

I never said that Living Dead wasn't working as intended. Please reread my post. I merely said that the OP's activation of Living Dead was not registered by the server in time for the skill to take effect, and instead of considering that maybe their ping was high enough to cause this issue (or to accept that perhaps they should have been more proactive when it came to activating it in the first place), they came here and said the skill was faulty. That is not the case. The OP clearly activated it after the killing blow was delivered, at least on the server side of things. Their battle log shows as much. So their blaming of the skill is misplaced.

The question was never is a delay a delay...... but is the delay an ISSUE!! Every single thing we do in the game requires our game client to make a request to the server and subsequent server acceptance; that process has a delay in it even for the best internet speed in game.....But that delay doesn't necessarily mean ISSUE. i specifically said given the way the skill works, and the fact we have 10 sec of prep time for the effect of the skill to activate, the delay you may suffer between client and server is INSIGNIFICANT IF your delay is less than 3 sec SINCE, as a tank, you should be at least 2-3 sec proactive (not to mean you're activating your skill 2-3 sec early but you're aware of what you need to do 2-3 sec prior to actually utilization ).


The raid comment was a side note; if you're latency is 2-3 sec between you and server you'd have to be proactive basically with every single movement/cd mech in that raid; and if you're in a progression party...gg why even bother. But again that's a side note.

Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding your posts, but with regards to the OP, the server registered them as getting hit by the killing blow before it ever registered them activating Living Dead. It just did not register on the client side that way, but rather, the opposite: OP saw themselves hit Living Dead, saw the icon on their status effects bar, but still died regardless. This is why I brought up the issue of ping. Again, I never said that the skill wasn't a working skill in general. I don't know why you keep saying that I'm saying the skill isn't working as intended, when I have never said any such thing.

You mention the 10 seconds of "prep time" and I'm assuming you mean the 10 seconds that Living Dead lasts before it either wears off, or you enter Walking Dead status upon taking fatal damage. OP never reached the Walking Dead status, so I feel like this 10 seconds of prep time you're referring to is irrelevant here. They only activated the Living Dead skill, but, again, because of latency between client and server and the designed lag of the skill itself (just like Hallowed Ground's lag), the server registered them as dying before it ever registered them pressing that skill. Like the battle log shows.

I'm assuming that you understand how the skill Living Dead works, but do you understand the difference between "Living Dead" status and "Walking Dead" status? You can activate Living Dead, but unless you take fatal damage within that 10 second time frame, you don't enter your true tank "oh shit" mode of Walking Dead. If healers heal you up enough during those 10 seconds, Living Dead wears off. You never enter Walking Dead. Walking Dead is where you have your true 10 seconds of tank oh shit panic mode. OP never entered Walking Dead.

My issue with the OP is that instead of acknowledging this latency, or even better, acknowledging that perhaps they should have been a bit more proactive when activating Living Dead or any other cooldown (since this applies to them as well), they came here instead and claimed that the skill was broken and/or poorly implemented.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

My issue with the OP is that instead of acknowledging this latency, or even better, acknowledging that perhaps they should have been a bit more proactive when activating Living Dead or any other cooldown (since this applies to them as well), they came here instead and claimed that the skill was broken and/or poorly implemented.

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In this portion of your quote you make the same point that I made in regards to Living Dead CD. while TECHNICALLY in that very specific OP situation client displayed something that was NOT acknowledge on the server. Unless that was a lag spike players should be aware of their latency AND ALREADY be proactive enough with their CDs by at least 2-3 sec PRIOR to inc DMG sequences.

Yes a healer can mess up your Walking Dead status; but that also means the healer DOESN'T UNDERSTAND the inc Dmg sequence and they too are suppose to anticipating all income dmg (since that is healers' main job.....especially the healers that just stand around and not dpsing).

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

*SNIP*

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O...M...G...

/slowclap

Your post was friggin awesome!

Even if it really is broken, SE should get around to some kind of minor adjustment in 2 or 3 years time.
Be patient.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

snip

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Does your battle log scroll in the opposite direction. The most recent line is always placed BENEATH the prior on mine, which would show here that not only was LD cast but also that its buff was registered before the killing blow was struck, after which he was still a viable (living) target for the Astrologian's shield via Aspected Benefic, an instant spell, after which the Astrologian (or another caster with an exactly equal pixel-width name) then prepared a Swiftcast. This would suggest that he was alive for at least a GCD after the fatal blow. That should not be the case if LD simply did not apply in time (which the battle log itself also contests). The buff was active, and it appears to have prolonged death, but then failed somehow between activation and transference to the Walking Dead debuff.

That said, I'm in complete agreement that Living Dead (or indeed any CD) should never be used so late.
One would never expect Hallowed Ground to save you within a mere second + ping, so why would someone expect Living Dead to?...