AOE combo skills

So when doing dungeon runs most if not all class's just spam the same AOE move over and over again.

Would it be nice to say have like a AOE combo? so instead of spamming the same move you use your AOE combo.

Peeps thoughts?

Sounds like Monk when PB is down.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

Sounds like Monk when PB is down.

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Joke's on you, I try to avoid using Arm of the Destroyer as much as possible. I mean, sure, it's there, but it's still a 50 potency AoE for 130 TP. That's compared to Rockbreaker being 130 potency for 120 TP. You only use Arm when that crowd needs to be dead like, yesterday, and PB is down... or something needs to be silenced. Otherwise, I just bite the bullet and wait for coeurl to Rockbreaker.

A combo with only AoE skills? Mostly not. The devs will keep the AoE skills as combo finishers.

If you can give ninja a rockbreaker esque aoe combo, by all means. I'll spam the ever-living crap out of it. Till then, Death Blossom's all I got aside from mudras.

Well Summoners already do this,

We're going...

Quickcast+Shadowflare>Tri-Disaster>Contagion (Garuda)>Painflare>Bane>Rouse+Spur+Enkindle (Garuda Aerial Blast)>Painflare>Dreadwyrm Trance>Deathflare (Bahamut TeraFlare)
(Sometimes a little Bliz 2 Spam before the Deathflare)

And all of ours are AoEs that build up to a large powerful AoE in the Deathflare/Teraflare.

I'll be honest I would love if Goring Blade was changed to an aoe or at least let the target be directly damaged and have the effect DoT be splashed onto nearby enemies.

I don't think it matters much. Like any boss with no mechanics to do, every trash pack is just deal damage and maybe dodge a ground AoE here and there. Hitting one button over and over or a sequence of 12 buttons isn't any more interesting when you're not actually interacting with the trash pack in any way other than dealing damage and moving out of ground AoEs. Complicating or creating rotations doesn't address the root problem which is we have trash packs meant to be pulled from roadblock to roadblock and spammed down instead of fewer but more interesting encounters. So long as it's going to be a braindead affair meant to just take up our time and pad the dungeon length, I'd rather press less buttons.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Joke's on you, I try to avoid using Arm of the Destroyer as much as possible. I mean, sure, it's there, but it's still a 50 potency AoE for 130 TP. That's compared to Rockbreaker being 130 potency for 120 TP. You only use Arm when that crowd needs to be dead like, yesterday, and PB is down... or something needs to be silenced. Otherwise, I just bite the bullet and wait for coeurl to Rockbreaker.

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Either you are Form Shifting twice so you can Rockbreaker again, or you are using Rockbreaker as the only AE component of a combo. Either way, you are using what is, in effect, an AE combo.

Heck, even Dragoons have Heavy Thrust->Ring of Thorns AE combo.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

Either way, you are using what is, in effect, an AE combo.

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In fairness, I'd not call a combo in which 2 of 3 parts are single-target an "AE" combo. It's a mix with a dominant single-target part.

Would also be nice if AoE weapon skills didn't cost 2-3x the TP of single target weapon skills. The increased cost is completely unnecessary given the reduced potency per target of AoE skills.

Bards had this back in 2.0 and it was a tp drain, iirc it went wide volley -> rain of death -> quick nock. You had a % chance that if WV hit, RoD would be free, and there was also a % chance RoD would make QN free, so in some cases you could use 3 aoe skills at the cost of one. But the number of times that happened was to far in between to really matter and it didn't even grant any increased potency either, so it was kind of pointless to do your aoe rotation.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

Would also be nice if AoE weapon skills didn't cost 2-3x the TP of single target weapon skills. The increased cost is completely unnecessary given the reduced potency per target of AoE skills.

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I'd understand that if it were split damage or the like, but it at even were it half the average potency of a ST combo, that'd only take some 2 targets hit to equal out, or 4 targets hit to be equally TP efficient... when most mob stacks are 6+ targets.

Personally I'd like to see more crossover in either direction.

But, animation variance aside, the only "advantage" to an AoE combo is that it has to ramp up, meaning that it's less weavable, or ends up being used in stricter intervals. Wait, "advantage"?

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

I don't think it matters much. Like any boss with no mechanics to do, every trash pack is just deal damage and maybe dodge a ground AoE here and there. Hitting one button over and over or a sequence of 12 buttons isn't any more interesting when you're not actually interacting with the trash pack in any way other than dealing damage and moving out of ground AoEs. Complicating or creating rotations doesn't address the root problem which is we have trash packs meant to be pulled from roadblock to roadblock and spammed down instead of fewer but more interesting encounters. So long as it's going to be a braindead affair meant to just take up our time and pad the dungeon length, I'd rather press less buttons.

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Actually I suspect a lot of tanks actually like it.

Its a lot more interesting to be holding off an Army while doing it and popping the occasional cooldown, while dodging and holding agro on an entire army of mobs.

Literally gives a whole new meaning to fighting off an army.

Sure makes it a lot more interesting than just some standard 3 mob spread with no effort probably a yawn fest for a tank. Unless they're just trying to take it easy for a while.

But throw in 6-12 and it gets a heck of a lot more challenging, and he's bobbing and weaving and blowing a cooldown here and there, and still keeping agro on a literal army

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Actually I suspect a lot of tanks actually like it.

Its a lot more interesting to be holding off an Army while doing it and popping the occasional cooldown, while dodging and holding agro on an entire army of mobs.

Literally gives a whole new meaning to fighting off an army.

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Speaking as a tank, there's functionally no difference between fighting 6 mobs vs. 12 mobs if both scenarios are having me pop cooldowns, spam AoE, etc. The latter just makes me move a bit more, possibly. My point was there's nothing interesting about trash. That's why it's called trash. I'd rather have fewer encounters that are overall more difficult and engaging than just play Katamari Damacy and everyone just mindlessly spams their AoEs.

Remember in 1.0 when all abilities had am AOE variant?
Well I guess that was before combos were implemented, but it was a sweet idea.

Thought about that too and I'm all for it.

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

Speaking as a tank, there's functionally no difference between fighting 6 mobs vs. 12 mobs if both scenarios are having me pop cooldowns, spam AoE, etc. The latter just makes me move a bit more, possibly. My point was there's nothing interesting about trash. That's why it's called trash. I'd rather have fewer encounters that are overall more difficult and engaging than just play Katamari Damacy and everyone just mindlessly spams their AoEs.

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Well then its time to go over the differences in jobs.
For the Summoner this IS our bag... mowing down large swaths of enemies with AoEs. The rotation I just gave you above... is one of them, though it varies per the Summoner... here's how it breaks down...

Shadowflare 25 potency per tick, (Bio 40 potency per tick, Miasma 35 potency per tick, Bio II 35 potency per tick). So Tri-Disaster is actually 110 potency. Total package here with all of them is 135 potency per tick. Bane spreads them to all other targets. (Mind you the BLM Fire II is only 100 Potency, and still only 130 with 3 fire stacks)

So...

1st AoE
Painflare (200 Potency)
(Due to pet interface you have to do this while waiting for Contagion to kick in, and account for Painflare's 10 second Recast timer)

2nd AoE
Bane Spreading DoTs to all other Targets (135 Potency per tick)

3th AoE
DoTs (135 Potency per tick)
Garuda Aerial Blast (250 Potency)
For 385 potency

4th Aoe
DoTs (135 Potency per tick)
Painflare (200 Potency)
For 335 Potency

5th AoE
DoTs (135 Potency per tick)
Deathflare/Teraflare (440 Potency)
For 575 potency AoE

So we're looking at
200 + 135 + 385 + 335 + 575.... Potency in AoEs per target... No other Job can do this much AoE damage that fast and there's still 135 AoE DoT ticking away after that. This is the strong suit of the Summoner...

So where else are we going to use this? A Boss Mob?......What a waste.

The kicker is... we only have 3 stacks of Aetherflow to do this with. And only one Deathflare... once this is used, we're spent, and can't do any more for 1 minute until Aetherflow CD is up. Which is just about how long it takes for you as the tank to pull Two to Three Mob spawn points just in time for us to be ready again to wipe them all out.

And if you have a Summoner in your group who is NOT doing this when you're pulling a major pack of mobs... you need to either educate him... or kick him...

I'm aware of how SMN plays. I'm just saying that if you're doing the same thing on every trash pack and the trash packs don't actually interact with you except the rare ground AoE to cause you to move, the complexity or simplicity of AoE doesn't make that trash pack any more interesting than a training dummy.

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

I'm aware of how SMN plays. I'm just saying that if you're doing the same thing on every trash pack and the trash packs don't actually interact with you except the rare ground AoE to cause you to move, the complexity or simplicity of AoE doesn't make that trash pack any more interesting than a training dummy.

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Is any entirely enmity-locked enemy in this game any more interesting than a training dummy? Unless they're charging about AND you're playing melee, I don't see what's to differentiate. Are we including raid AoEs as the boss? If so, then that could be a tiny plus to the engagement levels that enemy brings.

Let's face it—DPS generally just don't do anything in this game except input long-term completion metrics. And if they were to, you'd probably get more players condemning the fall of good old fashioned trinity values or chastising the insurgence of action-based nuanced combat than praising any increase in personal challenge. (Because if a raid mechanic tells everyone to stack with giant arrows, that's a suitable, challenging trinity-based mechanic (despite being cross-role), but if a DPS were to kite non-invincible enemies about or make good use of CCs rather than relying always on enmity/mitigation specialists, that'd be heresy.)

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

I'm aware of how SMN plays. I'm just saying that if you're doing the same thing on every trash pack and the trash packs don't actually interact with you except the rare ground AoE to cause you to move, the complexity or simplicity of AoE doesn't make that trash pack any more interesting than a training dummy.

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Well I do get that,
But it allows a lot of other Jobs to use abilities they don't normally use. Going through some of my partner DPS jobs I find myself co-DPSing with...

Here's the difference in us..
BLM uses Fire II (180 potency with stacks) and then finishes with Flare (250 potency not including Fire Stacks, not sure the calculation on this)
Whm uses Holy (200 potency, but like Flare is 10% less per target after the first)
Drg uses Doom Spike for 160 potency

So we'll be doing this together...

SMN
200 + 135 + 385 + 335 + 575

WHM
200 + 200 + 200 + 200 + 200 (Note theirs is 10% less per target)

BLM
180 + 180 + 180 + 180 + 450 (Flare though is 10% less per target)

DRG
160 + 160 + 160 + 160 + 160 (but its a Line attack)

While they do not do as much as I do as a SMN I always appreciate at least a little help, because even with all my AoE power, usually they will still have at least a sliver of health left after that, and if the other DPS is doing ANY AoE damage at all, it literally wipes out entire packs of mobs. Because despite my enormous AoE power as a SMN, the other DPS classes and their AoEs are just enough assistence to completely finish them off.

So I am very supportive of other Jobs using their AoEs in those shoes.

That said, I am also with your view as a Tank and believe the Healers first priority is healing, not DPSing, that comes first, not Holy Spam. But I am not against them DPSing once that is properly handled.

I really don't think we're on the same page as you're not addressing the point I was making which was about the mobs themselves. I main a BLM as my real job and used to play SMN, so I'm aware of AoEing, potencies, etc. but that has no relevance to how boring and mindless hammering in the same rotation and lack of interaction is with every trash pack.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Remember in 1.0 when all abilities had am AOE variant?
Well I guess that was before combos were implemented, but it was a sweet idea.

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I remember having a lot of trouble getting that to toggle properly. It was like combining lag with cleric stance switching and breeding it with release Titan's landslides.

I thought Fire II did 180 potency of damage. This is because I read that astral fire at 3 stacks increases the damage of fire spells by 80%. Mind you I haven't played BLM in months and barely payed attention to how much damage my Fire II was doing so I don't really know. Either way it seemed like it was stronger then just 130.

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Originally Posted by AvenoMatt

I thought Fire II did 180 potency of damage. This is because I read that astral fire at 3 stacks increases the damage of fire spells by 80%. Mind you I haven't played BLM in months and barely payed attention to how much damage my Fire II was doing so I don't really know. Either way it seemed like it was stronger then just 130.

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I used to wonder why things dropped so much slower when I would be AoEing as a BLM at levels 30-49. Could not figure out why as a SMN I was able to drop things so much faster with AoEs... but then when I broke it down... I understood...

As a BLM at those levels I was using Fire II, with 2 or 3 stacks of fire. Potency of 140 or 180 for Fire 2 Spam.

As a SMN I was using Bio, Bio 2, Miasma.... and then stepping in and spamming Bliz II. Potency of 40 + 35 + 35 for 110... for the DoTs that tick once every 3 seconds.

Bliz II has a casting time of 2 seconds... so is actually 75 Potency for 3 seconds. (it's 50 per 2 second cast) but spamming it is an extra DoT for SMN.

So I discovered even at those levels I was far outstripping BLM AoE damage with SMN.

Fire II was 120-180 Potency
DoTs (Bio>Bio 2>Miasma) 110 potency + (Bliz 2 Spam) 75 potency = 185 potency
I could not for the life of me understand why even at lower levels AoEing large numbers of mobs as SMN was stronger than when I would do it as a BLM until I broke it down.

And once you get to level 52 as SMN your AoE power takes off to even higher levels.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Remember in 1.0 when all abilities had am AOE variant?
Well I guess that was before combos were implemented, but it was a sweet idea.

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I think only CNJ and THM had that, with switching between single target and AoE for all their spells.
Other classes using DoM spells couldn't switch it to AoE mode.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Fire III is also single target so is Fire IV. And its 10% more damage per stack of Fire. Its why I listed Flare the way I did.

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Astral Fire is 40% more damage for fire spells with the first stack and 20% for the next two stacks for a total bonus of 80%.

So Fire 2 is 180 with full Astral Fire.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

Astral Fire is 40% more damage for fire spells with the first stack and 20% for the next two stacks for a total bonus of 80%.

So Fire 2 is 180 with full Astral Fire.

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Oh I misunderstood what you guys were talking about, made the corrections.

I knew those high level calculations seemed way off for what I was doing AoE wise at higher levels as BLM.

Monk has aoe combo skills.

You're definitely right,

I know Monks have a really good AoE, it just doesn't affect as many targets, and Ninjas too they have one know I've seen as well but don't know much about either Monk or Nin.

DRKs have a really good one too with the ground spikes thing. I know they use it for agro control mostly, but its surprisingly damaging going by the combat logs I've seen.