SMN Rotation/priority question for endgame raids/content

Hi All, I just got back after a 2yr hiatus (stopped at leviathan)
I am level 52 right now but I want to make sure I am the BEST SMN I can be once I hit lategame so ive read up on some guides and some abilities that I get.

SO it seems like everything revolves around trance


IM assuming this is my priority/rotation on 1 target bosses/villains
i ll leave out eye for eye, contagion and virus


Apply dots
pop aetherflow
Fester
then I want to get to trance ( I dont know what to spam to have it stack to 3 stacks)

once trance is available

spam ruin III until dots are all gone, rinse repeat.



is that pretty much it?

Welcome back :)

First of all Fester, Bane, Drain and Painflare will give u trance stacks.
So there are different combinations to get in trance.

Like you said smns shouldn't follow a fix rota but more a priority system based on different steps:

– Applying Dots (Either as hard casts or Tri-Disaster*)
– Buffing your Egi (find a good spot for Rouse, Spur and Enkindle**)
– Getting into trance (Fester, Painflare, Drain and Bane will give stacks***)
– Burst-Window (while in Trance Ruin lll is your go to skill)
– Deathflare (Trance-Finisher and your strongest DMG skill over all)

* although you can use Tri in your opener to set all DoTs at once, be aware that Tris real potential will break through while you are a in trance (combined with Garudas contagion)
** fitting your Egi in your priority-system can be adjusted situational because they are all oGCD
*** there are different openers which use different combinations to get into trance – spamming three different skills after each other is the fastest way if DoTs are up. Max dps on the other hand is using Fester 3x.

there are other skills as well which can/should implemented situational like shadow flare/miasra ll or your utility and cross-cls skills like raging strike, e4e, virus and raise.

I wouldn't think about the overall system until you got all your skills, because with every new skill your prio might change... ^^
Just enjoy your cls-story and get used to the single skills after you obtain them via your job-quests -> than come back and see which opener fits best for you :)


sincerly yours
Yuna

Various ways to do it really. Personally, on single targets I just Fester to get the stacks necessary for Trance (sometimes an Energy Drain between two Festers if I'm impatient). With Ruin II and book smacks between. If it's a mob, Bane, Painflare, Painflare.

Once I get into Dreadwyrm Trance I pop Raging Strikes, Tridisaster/Contagion (and if it's on a mob, I'll quickly refresh aetherflow and Bane that), Rouse/Spur/Enkindle. Then Ruin III spam. and of course end with deathflare. ^_^

Of course this all varies depending on the situation, but that's a fairly average opener for me.

I don't know honestly because it can vary so much... depending on the mechanics of the fight.

Generally though when I'm approaching single target boss mobs... you know its going to be a marathon fight... so...

I don't generally use Tri-Disaster until later in the fight when I know I'll have to be dodging mechanics.

So I'll start with a Bio 2, Miasma, Bio combo... then a Contagion.... and a Quick Cast + Shadowflare... then Rouse +Spur + Enkindle... depending on my mood.

At that point I've got 30 seconds worth of DoTs going and can Fester at will,

So its generally Fester>Ruin 3, Ruin 3> Fester> Ruin 3> Ruin 3> Fester> Dreadwyrm Trance> Ruin 3 Spam until the 2-3 second Mark (Potentially a Tri Disaster in there somewhere) > Deathflare

If its towards the end of the fight I'll kick in Raging Strikes too.

you separate raging strike out of your opener and tri-disaster out of trance (& contagion)? :O

holding back tri for an emargency/movement moment is... a hard loss of dps : (((

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Originally Posted by Neela

you separate raging strike out of your opener and tri-disaster out of trance(& contagion)? :O

holding back tri for an emargency/movement moment is... a hard loss of dps : (((

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Not necessarily... I will use Raging Strikes in the opener... but I've noticed that fights on boss mobs tend to be over before Raging Strikes ever comes up again.

So it depends on where in the fight I will need it most. Obviously you should know the fights well enough by now to know that some you DONT want to pop your Raging Strikes until the critical DPS check moment.

Tri-Disaster during the opener while nice... is not going to do you much good in a fight where later on you're going to be dodging a ton of mechanics, and you'll lose just as much DPS at that point if you can't get or keep your DPS on an opponent.

So it is not as cut and dried as you are contending.

its not that tri-disaster has an endless cd... and especially in the beginning in your first trance... raging strike+tri+con should be the base of your overall dps... if you need raging strike for a dps-check your overall dps seems to be lacking for the content itself. : /

edit: i haven't looked it up yet but I think tri & con got the same cd and work very well as pair :o

And then you wonder why...

I say you nit pick me needlessly....

no I just try to understand why you are doing it like you do - I don't want to be mean : (
you are right that RS can help at dps-checks in progress but its still a loss if u don't use it in your opener...

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Originally Posted by Neela

its not that tri-disaster has an endless cd... and especially in the beginning in your first trance... raging strike+tri+con should be the base of your overall dps... if you need raging strike for a dps-check your overall dps seems to be lacking for the content itself. : /

edit: i haven't looked it up yet but I think tri & con got the same cd and work very well as pair :o

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I think you're right, for me at least I always use them in Dreadwyrm (gives some really nice extended damage once DT ends <3 ) so their cooldown time must be fairly close together if they're not the same. Even with mechanics, losing a couple ticks of bio/miasma by manually reapplying is still a DPS gain once you tridisaster under Trance. \o/

Well for me I notice the heavy mechanics phase usually starts right after the DWT... or during it,

Which is why I listed it as potentially under the DWT... but not necessarily.

I don't usually use it as an opener, there I go with the manual cast in the beginning. And use the Tri Disaster later when re-applying them. Because the re-applying phase is usually taking place during the heavy mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

And then you wonder why...

I say you nit pick me needlessly....

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/soothe

It honestly just sounds like friendly advice to me. I never used to do my opener the way I do now. Used to always open with raging strikes, apply DoTs manually, then contagion and then go into Trance opener. I changed it after one of my raiding buddies pointed out the benefits of saving those until after you start Dreadwyrm. \o/ I've noticed a huge difference in DPS output ever since.

thx serious, I never meant to be picky :3

and yeah true – there are indeed fights where you might adjust your opener or prios to the mechanic (like Niddhog ex) but for most of the end content there is time to punch your buffed opener at the beginning at least once before deeper mechanics strike in :o

Yeah did lose that fight the first time because I didn't know about the DPS check,

And there's a few others. So I've learned to get to know when to do it and when not to.

With big pulls or big group of adds , I use trance and spam blizzard 2, after tri disaster, bane and 2 painflares... Their hp just melts lol

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Originally Posted by Iromi

With big pulls or big group of adds , I use trance and spam blizzard 2, after tri disaster, bane and 2 painflares... Their hp just melts lol

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.... Bliz II ..... instead of Ruin III......................................................

I have no words.

Edit: give me a sec, I am going to link you the Summoner guide. They've spent forever on it and it's pretty much the go-to reference place at this point.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/231828-Connecting-the-DoTs-A-Summoner-Guide

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

.... Bliz II ..... instead of Ruin III......................................................

I have no words.

Edit: give me a sec, I am going to link you the Summoner guide. They've spent years on it and it's pretty much the go-to reference place at this point.

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Honestly Iromi does have a point depending on how many mobs in a large pull...

You just might be doing more DPS than with a Ruin 3. I've considered it and done it myself. If your Ruin 3 is only doing 2K damage and single target, a Bliz 2 on 6-10 mobs is going to be doing 1.8 to 3k on large packs of mobs. So you'll end up doing more damage overall.

Me personally I will just do Deathflare early and then use Ruin 3 on the remaining mobs while the DoTs tick.

Oookay, done with this convo. My brain hurts trying to figure out where those numbers came from. And Deathflaring early... are you trying to give me hives? XD Please, everyone just check out the guide, and don't bring your own experience into it, just look at the facts it offers. I myself am gonna take another peek because I know they try to update it with relevant info each patch.

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

Oookay, done with this convo. My brain hurts trying to figure out where those numbers came from. And Deathflaring early... are you trying to give me hives? XD Please, everyone just check out the guide, and don't bring your own experience into it, just look at the facts it offers. I myself am gonna take another peek because I know they try to update it with relevant info each patch.

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Oh... you want REAL numbers... ok cool...

At ilvl210,
I did 2,200 per shot with Ruin III... that's single target... Bliz 2 was doing about 300- 600 damage per target in DWT... on 6-10 targets its doing low end 1800 to 3000 total...

SO I can either do 2.2k damage... or 3k-6k+ per hit with Bliz 2 spam...

Normally this is not needed if the other DPS in group knows how to find the AoE button, because if he can do ANY AoE at all... just your Painflares, Bane DoTs, and Deathflare alone will drop over half the mobs before you can get in and spam it.

I generally only break out the Bliz 2 method when the other DPS doesn't know how to find the AoE button... or I've been level synced to 50.

On most aoe packs, MP is never something you'd run out of, so not taking advantage of the MP reduction on Ruin 3 isn't a loss.
Then on basic potency (between brackets, includes DWT buff): Blizzard 2 = 50 (55) potency per target, Ruin 3 is 200 (220) potency, this means B2 is a better choice in terms of raw potency at 5 targets or more, and equal at 4.

Early deathflare is a thing as well, you want the deathflare to actually hit when most of those mobs are still alive. If 1 mob dies before you use it, your deathflare does 440 less potency (always buffed by DWT after all). Using Ruin 3/blizzard 2 inside DWT instead of outside, doesn't weigh up against that potency loss.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vulcwen

On most aoe packs, MP is never something you'd run out of, so not taking advantage of the MP reduction on Ruin 3 isn't a loss.
Then on basic potency (between brackets, includes DWT buff): Blizzard 2 = 50 (55) potency per target, Ruin 3 is 200 (220) potency, this means B2 is a better choice in terms of raw potency at 5 targets or more, and equal at 4.

Early deathflare is a thing as well, you want the deathflare to actually hit when most of those mobs are still alive. If 1 mob dies before you use it, your deathflare does 440 less potency (always buffed by DWT after all). Using Ruin 3/blizzard 2 inside DWT instead of outside, doesn't weigh up against that potency loss.

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The Blizzard II doesn't really matter to me, I've just never seen someone make it a priority compared to other abilities lol.

The reason I say early deathflare gives me hives is 'cause he mentioned then still needing Ruin III to kill them off. There is also the 10% DPS boost to your spells while under Dreadwyrm (which is not something to sneeze at if you're going the tridisaster/contagion route), why would you Deathflare early instead of taking advantage of Ruin III's potency boost while you still have it? :/ I understand the early part (no one likes to see stacks go to waste), I just don't understand using it so early that you didn't actually kill the things... does that make any sense? Unless I've misinterpreted something somewhere, but I didn't think so. If someone is tridisastering under trance, that's another story, you're still doing lots of extra damage after, but he mentioned he never uses raging or tri unless in emergencies, which makes me believe his only boost is coming from Trance, sooooo. That's why I see it as wasteful.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

I generally only break out the Bliz 2 method when the other DPS doesn't know how to find the AoE button... or I've been level synced to 50.

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Ok! This explains it then! This I can understand, but Bliz II in a regular 60 rotation, that sounds weird as hell to me since it's usually unnecessary. And if someone does use it regularly (as the person has said they do, that it's their go-to ability choice), how do you know they're not peeing their DPS away on a mob of 3/4?

nvm, it's all rhetorical anyway lol. So long as everyone's doing the damages I guess it doesn't matter.

No... what I said was... I use Ruin 3 to kill off the remaining ones.... after the Painflares, DoTs, and Deathflare... which generally there are 3 or less of them after the original 6-10 have been wiped out.

You apparently aren't reading close enough.

And no.... I didn't say... I never use Tri Disaster and Raging Strikes except in emergencies... I said I use it when it is most appropriate ... and safe to do so that it won't hose the rest of the raid or instance...

DPS while important... is secondary to winning.

And not getting caught up in the minutia... and gauging the situation properly is more important in the end.

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

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Again, my assumption is that you can spam ruin 3 out of DWT until it dies without MP constraints, as AoE packs don't live long enough, and afterwards you can regen MP before the next fight. You want deathflare to hit for it's maximum potential, because it's massive potency, it won't hit a target that's already dead, so you lose DPS from hitting it too late. You also don't get maximum potential if you use it when everything is at such low HP that it's massive overkill. You get far more DPS out of using deathflare at full potential than you'd get from the 10% buff of using other abilities under DWT than if you'd just use it after the deathflare.

So basically, you want to deathflare as late as possible while still getting it under maximum potential, if you use it after a mob died, you used it too late, if nothing was at about to die, and you use it early, then you wasted buff potential.

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Originally Posted by Vulcwen

snip. You want deathflare to hit for it's maximum potential, because it's massive potency, it won't hit a target that's already dead, so you lose DPS from hitting it too late. You also don't get maximum potential if you use it when everything is at such low HP that it's massive overkill. You get far more DPS out of using deathflare at full potential than you'd get from the 10% buff of using other abilities under DWT than if you'd just use it after the deathflare.

So basically, you want to deathflare as late as possible while still getting it under maximum potential, if you use it after a mob died, you used it too late, if nothing was at about to die, and you use it early, then you wasted buff potential.

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Hmm, gonna give that a shot next Sohm Al hard then. Although dunno how far I'll get since most everything is dead by the time Trance comes up anyway. :/

isnt bliz2 a relict of older times? I havent used it for a long time now... beside pvp. and I haven't seen any highlvl-smn who still use it nowadays... there are less mobs which can't be taken off with shadow flare, tri, bane, mia2, pain, buffed enkindle, pain, deathflare -> 2-3 ruin lll... bliz is very mp-intensive for the outcome and can also disturb Drks mp regenaration cause of the bind effect... I personally wouldn't use it these days for mobs anymore. ^^

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Originally Posted by Neela

isnt bliz2 a relict of older times? I havent used it for a long time now... beside pvp. and I haven't seen any highlvl-smn who still use it nowadays... there are less mobs which can't be taken off with shadow flare, tri, bane, mia2, pain, buffed enkindle, pain, deathflare -> 2-3 ruin lll... bliz is very mp-intensive for the outcome and can also disturb Drks mp regenaration cause of the bind effect... I personally wouldn't use it these days for mobs anymore. ^^

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Why wouldn't you use Blizzard 2? Personally I use it all the time while running Gubal Hard where the pulls are typicall 6-10 targets.

Ruin 3 = 200 potency, 1060 mp (outside DWT)
@4 targets: Blizzard 2 = 200 potency, 707 mp
@10 targets: Blizzard 2 = 500 potency, 707 mp

DRKs don't care about the bind. Good DRKs don't even care about Holy.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Why wouldn't you use Blizzard 2?

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because i'll haven't encountered any mobs lately which need bliz2 in my basic aoe-rota (see last post) - I was used to use it back in the days as well but not anymore ^^

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

DRKs don't care about the bind. Good DRKs don't even care about Holy.

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Talking about "good" DRKs in times of potd and off-stance-tanking is a bit hilarious but yeah I know what you mean... sadly the truth in df seems very different nowadays ^^'

- You want to use Aetherflow whenever it's up.
- You want to use Raging Strikes (and maybe Trick Attack) to buff the 6-7 RUIN 3 you CAN use while you're in trance; Tri-disaster; Festers AND Deathflare.
- You always want to double-Fester while in trance (always, but can't in the opener).
- You always want to buff Enkindle with Trick Attack (if you have a ninja).
- You always want that Dreadwyrm Trance and Raging Strikes have the same count-time (then RS can buffs Deathflare).
- Painflare only if you can hit 2 or more targets.
- Energy Draing only if you really need MP (in case you dropped your MP by raising someone).
- Bane for mobs and/or a second target which has a great amount of life.

Opener:
-> Pre-cast Shadow Flare> Rouse> Spur> Bio 2 > Miasma> Bio >Swift Cast> Raging Strikes> Painflare> Fester> Energy Drain> Aetherflow> Dreadwyrm Trance> Ruin 3 (Swift Casted)> Tri Disaster> Contagion> Ruin 3> Enkindle (or whenever Trick Attack is up)>Ruin 3> Ruin 3> Fester> Ruin 3 > Ruin 3 > Death Flare.

2nd Trance: Swift Cast the first Ruin 3 and use Fester and Tri Disaster. Before Trance ends you can use one more Fester.

Since the usage of ruin lll out of trance became a common thing Energy Drain nowadays is way more useful than it was used to be :o

and pls dont start the discussion if the pfe opener is the "must" way to go : /

there are various openers for smn pfe is just one of them same goes for the dbl fester in trance - trance mode prio system is strongly depending on your spell speed, especially after the stat weight change, there are smns with <700 ss (max crit) smns with > 750 ss for the extra ruin lll and rarely smns with 900-1000+ ss which won't use swiftcasted ruin lll's at all. although your variation seems kinda solid to me it misses quelling and pots so we could discuss this in an endless conversation why and how -> but we shouldn't do that right here, cause there are good guides which compare those variations and their benefits already to death :3

SMN in the single target scenario given, kinda works like this:

Aetherflow:
Use aetherflow right before DWT.
Use fester for aetherflow consumption. Space it out so that 1 stack is used during DWT and aetherflow can be refreshed before DWT.

DWT:
Make sure you are using tri-disaster, contagion, fester, and deathflare. The rest is mostly ruin III filler.
When a dot starts to fall off, refresh with tri-disaster, and be sure to extend it with contagion. Tri-disaster, contagion, and aetherflow are all on 1min CDs, which works out nicely.

Out of DWT:
Keep up on your dots and pet dmg CDs. Lean on ruin II as filler for the most part. Consider ruin IIIs as you near the end of the fight, during mages ballad, during DPS checks, etc.

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Originally Posted by Neela

Since the usage of ruin lll out of trance became a common thing Energy Drain nowadays is way more useful than it was used to be :o

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That much is true... Ruin III is so good and does so much damage... that was worth it to me to put a few Piety Materia in my Gear slots and use it outside of Trancing once I saw how much damage it did.

Now I can use Ruin III anytime I want without worrying about it.

That said... the flipped side is also true... about more usage of Lifesteal... but in reality I noticed a lot of healers tend to disregard healing other DPS in favor of Tanks so I end up using it a lot more for the healing since Physick at this level is so puny. But you know... more MP for more Ruin 3 spam is also good.

Another trick I use when I need to do fast burst damage and can't blow a quick Tri-Disaster + Fester.... is to use a Ruin 3 (2.5 sec cast) immediately followed by a Ruin 2 (Instant) cast... for a quick 280 potency burst. And they go off so quick its instant.

I don't even use Ruin 2 anymore at this point other than when I am constantly dodging Mechanics.

At this point my DoTs when stacked are already doing a good 1500 to 2000 damage underneath while I'm spaming Ruin 3 put the two togather and its a nasty combination.