Can the new deep dungeon please have enemies with more health

One of the big problems that PotD has is that lots of people use it for levelling, but a lot of people also complain about how it isn't good for learning the role. One of the primary reasons for this I feel is that enemies are either handled with AOE, or their health is so low that you don't get to fully use your rotations.

I'm not asking for Deep Dungeon 2 to be harder, but can we please see more miniboss type enemies with more health that allow us to practice positionals, buffs, debuffs, and full rotations while levelling, as what we have now does not allow this. Imagine instead of a large pack of enemies, there was instead one enemy that filled the same purpose, but the stategy changed from mass AOE to positionals and full rotations.

Have you got to Floor 200 solo? I assume you have if you don't think there's any difficulty. There's a huge amount of things that players can do to learn their class but unfortunately the meta in this game is "reach cap ASAP" & people will always use the easiest route, regardless of whether it helps teach the class or not.

Ideally things like Hall of the Novice (& the upcoming version) should be compulsory. Job quests should force the use of abilities (a bit like Hall of the Novice). Guildhests should be signposted as important too, currently you might miss them altogether if you're not told about them.

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

Have you got to Floor 200 solo? I assume you have if you don't think there's any difficulty. There's a huge amount of things that players can do to learn their class but unfortunately the meta in this game is "reach cap ASAP" & people will always use the easiest route, regardless of whether it helps teach the class or not.

Ideally things like Hall of the Novice (& the upcoming version) should be compulsory. Job quests should force the use of abilities (a bit like Hall of the Novice). Guildhests should be signposted as important too, currently you might miss them altogether if you're not told about them.

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Bad example the whole 100-200 solo was supposed to be akin to Savage in terms of difficulty. 1-100 was outlined as story/leveling dungeons with little challenge. They are not asking for it to be more challenging they are asking for mobs to have more HP.

I actually agree most early mobs take 2 hits and the higher ones once capped don't take much more to kill making practising rotations harder. Yes we have dummies to practice on but POTD is a nice place to practice with real enemies.

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

Have you got to Floor 200 solo?

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As Masekase described, I'm talking about 1-100, the floors that players use to level. We have seen numerous complaints about PotD being the new fate grinding in terms of producing poor players from the levelling experience, and all I'm asking for is for players to be able to fully flesh out their rotations on singular mobs before they die, I'm not asking for the difficulty to be any different to what it currently is.

This would be in addition to your comment about the Hall of the Novice (or Hall of the Intermediary), and would allow players to apply and practice their endgame skills while levelling, which the current PotD (floors 1-100) does not properly achieve.

You have to remember that PoTD was designed to be done solo, as well as in a team. At 0/0 gear on something like Arcanist at the low levels you already hit like a wet noodle. It gets substantially easier as you progress to floor 50, I give you that, but it depends on the class chosen & the gear points you get as you progress.

Part of the problem being or stemming possibly from the whole bad players thing is enemies tend to die so fast so players really cannot learn their classes properly.
Myself i do Palace a few times a week, not to level (i have all jobs at 60) but because i actually enjoy Palace and rather do that to cap on tomes then the same old dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

You have to remember that PoTD was designed to be done solo, as well as in a team. At 0/0 gear on something like Arcanist at the low levels you already hit like a wet noodle. It gets substantially easier as you progress to floor 50, I give you that, but it depends on the class chosen & the gear points you get as you progress.

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Players can still solo the bosses. You are right that this request is more complex than it appears, but I can see this being feasible from floors 30+. My idea is that you would have special rooms with a miniboss enemy instead of having 5 enemies, this can either be avoided or killed to get extra loot, which would be a nice decision to make for both parties and solo

I'm in support of optional rooms with a sub/miniboss that has fairly simple (but necessary to learn for future reference) mechanics. It would make for a less dry experience at times.

I wouldn't mind more health if they'd remove either the number of room AND number of ennemy required.
As long as it takes the same time. I think it would in fact improve the place.

It's really dull to chasse ennemies non stop because they all get one shotted.

Also, their low health makes some job really uneffective (dot based) when there isn't a tank to allow mass doting. (And it makes BLM super OP since they 2-shot everything)

A hearty YES. Having trash mobs randomly replaced by a meaty mid-boss every few floors(a non-fixed number of floors) with a large pool of potential mobs with their own mechanics would certainly break the monotony of the thing.

While I agree that some change to break the monotony would be awesomely good thing, I can't find sympathy for the OPs reasoning for it. If you feel you're not learning your class in PoTD then maybe run something else! In between your PoTD level sets you can run dungeons, seek boss enemy fates of proper level range, do boss enemy guild leves or any such thing. If your hammer doesn't work for turning screws, instead of carving screw driver head to your hammer, maybe just pick up the other tool instead.

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Originally Posted by Sida

While I agree that some change to break the monotony would be awesomely good thing, I can't find sympathy for the OPs reasoning for it. If you feel you're not learning your class in PoTD then maybe run something else! In between your PoTD level sets you can run dungeons, seek boss enemy fates of proper level range, do boss enemy guild leves or any such thing. If your hammer doesn't work for turning screws, instead of carving screw driver head to your hammer, maybe just pick up the other tool instead.

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Just because I can run other things doesn't mean that PotDs levelling experience shouldn't be improved. This isn't for my own sake, this is the sake of those who soley level in PotD due to fast queues, and the fact that some jobs don't have a good levelling experience in PotD. I learned NIN just fine, but when I tried BLM, I was barely able to apply enochian and leylines before we had to move on. The content gives you these tools long before you can access them outside, and I really wanted to try those toys out, only to find that the enemies were too weak, forcing me into my lvl 50 rotation and completely ignoring my lvl 60 skills.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

when I tried BLM, I was barely able to apply enochian and leylines before we had to move on.

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BLM is a really bad example because in a real world situation, you wouldn't be using a FireIV/BlizzardIV rotation on trash anyway. You'd be doing either

Fire III > Fire II > Fire II > Fire II > Fire II > Flare >
Transpose > Fire III > Fire II > Fire II > Flare > repeat this line forever

or you'd be doing a sub50 Fire I spam.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

BLM is a really bad example because in a real world situation, you wouldn't be using a FireIV/BlizzardIV rotation on trash anyway. You'd be doing either

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That's my point, I'm asking for variation and an alternative to trash for the purposes of being able to fully utilize your toolkit. I found PotD to be an awful experience as BLM simply because I couldn't use my toolkit, because it was nothing but trash.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

That's my point, I'm asking for variation and an alternative to trash for the purposes of being able to fully utilize your toolkit. I found PotD to be an awful experience as BLM simply because I couldn't use my toolkit, because it was nothing but trash.

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But now that's my point.

You're not supposed to learn your rotation in a Deep Dungeon; it's challenge content in which you're supposed to know your rotation already, and you're supposed to know when you don't need to use your whole action set. Despite its effectiveness as leveling content, it's not learning content. There are dummies elsewhere for exploring rotations, and then real dungeons for putting those rotations into practice.

While I agree that changes could be made to make Deep Dungeons more interesting, having mechanically interesting or even just harder hitting random miniboss type enemies would not be practical unless a challenge runner had some means of bypassing them -- a hidden key that opens a path avoiding that room, a teleporter with special conditions, etc; but in adding that bypass, the leveling population would have a means of avoiding it as well. And once the leveling population has a means of avoiding something, they will, and then why did we even add it in the first place?

Better would be to add non-combat challenges to some of the floors, in the vein of puzzles that could be accomplished regardless of whether one is solo or in a party.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

You're not supposed to learn your rotation in a Deep Dungeon; it's challenge content in which you're supposed to know your rotation already, and you're supposed to know when you don't need to use your whole action set. Despite its effectiveness as leveling content, it's not learning content. There are dummies elsewhere for exploring rotations, and then real dungeons for putting those rotations into practice.

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I do understand your point, I just don't understand why it wouldn't accomplish both needs, and allow players who use it for levelling to get a more wholesome experience. You are arguing against something that you yourself said would be good for the game, just because you don't like my reasoning. There is no reason why this couldn't accomplish what I want, and what you want.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I do understand your point, I just don't understand why it wouldn't accomplish both needs, and allow players who use it for levelling to get a more wholesome experience. You are arguing against something that you yourself said would be good for the game, just because you don't like my reasoning. There is no reason why this couldn't accomplish what I want, and what you want.

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I know, I'm just hoping that whatever changes might come in the future are not only interesting but also not prohibitive for challenge runners. "Difficult" and maybe even "almost absurdly difficult" are fun; "impossible" isn't so much.

I just think additions of different formats could be a tricky thing. I would be immeasurably impressed if they managed to come up with additions that worked well for both challenge runners and levelers.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

I know, I'm just hoping that whatever changes might come in the future are not only interesting but also not prohibitive for challenge runners. "Difficult" and maybe even "almost absurdly difficult" are fun; "impossible" isn't so much.

I just think additions of different formats could be a tricky thing. I would be immeasurably impressed if they managed to come up with additions that worked well for both challenge runners and levelers.

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Oh I can agree with that, this is an idea for the earlier floors more than anything, if the idea is to have DD2 1-50 have us level from 1-70, I'd like more ways to use our skills. There is definately room for progression and I'd not like to see the content become easier or more basic for sure.

You have to remember that we are talking about floors 1-50 so you need to compare it to PotD floors 1-100, please don't try to turn those floors into 101-200

Lol thinking players actually do all 100 floors to level. Like any sensible person, they spam 51-60.

One thing i have noticed there is way more traps then used to be, i know there was some talk about it anyone know if this be true or we have just had bad luck?
Personally i have enjoyed it :)

Then you would need to go in with a certain party makeup and that negates the entire idea of PotD.

I'm all for that.
I barely use more than 1-2-3 rotation since everything dies before I can do anything else.
Applying DoT is useless in most scenario as mobs will die before the dot can tick more than twice.
It pretty much makes everything more annoying, tank can merely tank as mobs die after 2-3sec.


Another thing that should be adressed is the amount or duration of some traps.

Some traps are way too potent, 30sec silence is way too long. Same goes for the frog or the mine who can kill anyone not above 90%. The worst part is, these aren't even fun or do they require any skill to manage. They're boring and only about "are you lucky / unlucky enough to put your foot at the wrong place at the wrong time".

I'd rather have trap replaced by miniboss. That'd make things more interesting and less random.
Same thing for the cursed chest, 10min really...

I'd rather wipe from my party failing at a small mechanic because we've been over confident or careless than wiping because "someone stepped on a mine when everyone was a 80% hp".


Also, I hope that any change they'll include in PotD2.0 will also affect the first one so both stay relevant.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Another thing that should be adressed is the amount or duration of some traps.

Some traps are way too potent, 30sec silence is way too long. Same goes for the frog or the mine who can kill anyone not above 90%. The worst part is, these aren't even fun or do they require any skill to manage. They're boring and only about "are you lucky / unlucky enough to put your foot at the wrong place at the wrong time".

I'd rather have trap replaced by miniboss. That'd make things more interesting and less random.
Same thing for the cursed chest, 10min really...

I'd rather wipe from my party failing at a small mechanic because we've been over confident or careless than wiping because "someone stepped on a mine when everyone was a 80% hp".

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The traps can be avoided with a bit of caring where you walk, they're practically never on the edges of the rooms. The damage done by the mines can be mitigated by keeping distance to party mates so at most one takes the hit. Silence is not a problem if the healer doesn't play minesweeper. And the cursed chests, practically all runs I've been on there has been more than enough Purity pomances to go around, even to leave them to the chests since they are capped. That one pomance is specifically designed to remove that debuff. Not to forget the safety and sight pomances which both make the floor traps trivial matter. That working around something needs a bit of planning and strategy is not a flaw.

[QUOTE=Sida;4127930]snipeQUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Sida

The traps can be avoided with a bit of caring where you walk, they're practically never on the edges of the rooms.

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This is very true and I do my best but at the same time, isn't it a bit... how do I put it, counter productive to add a feature to the game that incite player to walk around the edge of the room. Keeping everyone split etc etc, I'm obviously not talking about 100-200 when the whole point of this place is to be challenging.
I mean, some runs were just a pain. tons of cursed chest resulting in 3 people with curse, no healer, not talking about the random bombs, frog, silence that just made everyone stand around waiting for the summoner to "heal" us

The traps are there because there is methods to avoid them. Pomance of Safety removes them from the floor set, and pomance of sight reveals the map and the traps. With a bit of care in their use, one level set has usually for me, at most one or two levels that need to be run bare. The PoTD is created akin to old rpgs. One attack stat, one defends stat, and map offers as much challenges as solutions (in form of pomances). That people want to speedrun it ignoring most of this content is in their right, but if you forgo a key and then complain about locks...

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Another thing that should be adressed is the amount or duration of some traps.

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I agree with Sida on this one. While I agree and will always support improvements to traps, especially with them sometimes being bland as you said, but the duration is fine. I actually love the mimic curse, my complaint about mimics prior is that they didn't feel like mimics, i.e. they are supposed to be a surprise that you really don't want to face, and you have to be wary opening every chest. The curse achieves this without outright killing you.

Having said that, my idea of a miniboss room would be set to never spawn traps in it for balancing reasons (healer steps on a frog trap while fighting boss? RIP party)

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

The curse achieves this without outright killing you.

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Honestly, I feel it doesn't.

The curse is completely inconsequential if you're a healer or have one in the party while it's crippling for every non-healer.

I don't find the traps in any way, shape or form engaging either. They're literally just a tool to make you pull things into the hallways before entering the rooms and thus slow you down, because the fact that you don't get any hints without a pom makes them nothing more than a random:"Eff you!" from the game. At the same time, most of them are utterly inconsequential when there are no mobs around and just have you wait it out. Not doing anything for 20-60 seconds to wait for regeneration/debuffs is "veeery" engaging design.

And whether you get the right pomanders to help you or not is random, too. "Pop a safety" is easy to say when the game gave you 7 purities and an intuition to work with. The argument is particularly dumb for trap pomanders because every floor has traps, but none are visible, so there's no way to tell whether you need that pom now or later. You can only pop it ASAP and it might or might not change anything because you might or might not have stepped on a trap on that floor in the first place. But popping it means you once again have nothing to fight them with until you get a new one.

In fact, I find the entire palace somewhat bland. I solo'd my way into 140 for the explorer title recently and even the so called challenge floors didn't do much more than increase the health and damage of the mobs. Even the bosses were just rehashed versions of the 1-40 bosses. That's "challenging" in the same way the HW overworld is more challenging than the ARR overworld. I literally died of boredom in 141 because I forgot to set music before entering, tabbed out and then had a patrol kill me while I set it up >_>

And after that experience, I can't say I'm too hot on mobs with more health in PotD either. If something doesn't melt with 4 people in the party (especially if those 4 are doing more than spamming 1-2-3), it's a royal pain to kill solo. It's not even threatening, it's just... tedious.

I suppose if the new deep dungeon isn't intended to be solo-able, that's a different story, as you don't need to consider solo play. But even then, I'd probably rather just make random boss-floors, rather than mini-bosses in regular floors. You can set it up akin to Midas 2, where you have 4 mini-bosses in a row, each boss dropping chests upon defeat. Or just a single one. You got more freedom with arena design that way and recycle some mechanics from the outside game.

Personally id rather deep dungeons only give tomestones and loot and remove the exp all together (obviously increasing quality of loots)... or at least increase the level required to unlock the deep dungeons... I don't use potd for leveling I go for the possibility of fiscal gains (which bought me a apt, my fc house and furnished them both) these "speed runs" are annoying at best...

So I'm guessing the constant spawn of double patrolling mobs isn't a thing anymore?

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Honestly, I feel it doesn't.
and snip.

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Well you expressed my thought much better than I did.

However, this is also a quite "common" complain on the japanese forum too.
They globally complain about the same things
1- Mobs die too quick / it gets boring / not challenging (before 100 obviously)
2- Trap are just annoying
3- Mimic debuff range from laughable if you have a healer to game breaking if you don't.

I honestly wouldnt be surprise these 3 point to be reworked for palace of the dead 2.0
However, I'm pretty sure the 1-50, easy 51-100 hard will remain (or wathever the number of floors)

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I do understand your point, I just don't understand why it wouldn't accomplish both needs, and allow players who use it for levelling to get a more wholesome experience. You are arguing against something that you yourself said would be good for the game, just because you don't like my reasoning. There is no reason why this couldn't accomplish what I want, and what you want.

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That's because it literally can't.

Normal dungeons are balanced on a full party of 4, optimal tank, healer, DPS. PoTD is not. Consequently its challenge level has to be graded way down. And seriously it is.

I ran my first PoTD set yesterday and I admit, its way easy. No need for rotations or positionals, normally Rongway is right about how you run a BLM Rotation.... but that's not possible in PoTD unless you have an actual tank to hold agro. I would NEVER run the Rotations I ran in PoTD unless I was going for a quick burn in an emergency.

PoTD is little more than a Diablo 2 free for all... the actual FFXIV Dungeons require coordination and teamwork to get through... thus require specific classes in a balanced party. And they actually need to know how to play their character or it will show very blatently.

Its way easy compared to an actual FFXIV dungeon because of that. You need to have the challenge level set so low that a party of Healers with no tanks or DPS's can get through it.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Its way easy compared to an actual FFXIV dungeon because of that. You need to have the challenge level set so low that a party of Healers with no tanks or DPS's can get through it.

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So you can't have enemies that are comparable to tuned down versions of the bosses that allow you to at least use that new ability that just got put on your hotbar? It doesn't need to be challenging, it just needs to be alive long enough for positionals and combos to be worthwhile. Currently PotD is an AOE-fest, im just asking for something that is single target

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

So you can't have enemies that are comparable to tuned down versions of the bosses that allow you to at least use that new ability that just got put on your hotbar? It doesn't need to be challenging, it just needs to be alive long enough for positionals and combos to be worthwhile. Currently PotD is an AOE-fest, im just asking for something that is single target

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Ok man... then answer this... how you going to hit a positional without a tank in group?

How you are you going to use a combo, when you're dead?

Reality check here... you can't.

I know you WANT it to be like the real actual FFXIV dungeons so at least they'll know how to do things before they get to the upper level dungeons.... and it quite frankly explains some of the really crappy DPS's I've grouped with.... but I don't know how you could change it and still get through it.

PoTD is a poor trainer for the actual game and you can't actually change it without breaking it. You'd have to make it a queued 4 man dungeon just like the rest of them... but then it defeats the entire purpose of having something like that.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Ok man... then answer this... how you going to hit a positional without a tank in group?

How you are you going to use a combo, when you're dead?

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The same way you do with the end boss of each floor? The idea already exists within the content, use a pomander of steel etc. Either that or you just don't go into that room if you don't have a tank.

Eh, no thanks.

I've already had several bad PUG groups and the fact that one wipe = WASTE OF TIME, I don't want mobs having more health, nor do I want more difficulty in PotD.

And I love how people say you can solo the bosses, I'd love to know how, because some of those bosses wipe whole groups, and a lot of the damage just seems unavoidable or very unrealistic to think you could kill said boss solo, AND there's the whole RNG aspect where half of the time your weapon fails to upgrade or you get either Armor or Weapon upgrades constantly to where one gets 10-20 ahead of the other.

There's too much RNG involved to try to make PotD harder. They could, perhaps, modify the enemies depending on your group composition but again that would be a mixed bag. I would not enjoy losing 30-45 minutes of my time because of a terrible group composition, players having underleveled equipment, one cheap trap that ruins the whole run on x7-x9 etc. We already have that bad enough.

EDIT: If you want to practice your rotation, go find a FATE boss somewhere that is solo-able with pre-endgame gear (if there is one in HW content......) and practice your rotation on it. That, or a combat dummy.