Fate of Sleep

So, with the combat rework coming up soon, I was wondering about the spells Sleep and Repose. At lower levels, sleep works on many things, even dungeon mobs. At higher levels though, it works less and less. In Heavensward, I recall there were some fate mobs and even quest enemies that were immune to sleep. Do these spells even have a place in Stormblood? Will they be made PvP only?

Bind and pacify are in a similar situation, I wish more challenging mechanics required them rather than the devs lazily resorting to stuns and silences. I'm also worried about tempered will on PLD, in ARR it was such an underrated skill that gave PLD an edge in a lot of fights, in HW though, it seems that a lot of knockbacks are immune.

Sleep and Repose are in a wierd situation due to the nature of the game. If I were to take a guess, I'd almost be willing to bet they remain as-is currently in the game. That is to say that: They will see most of their use in PvP with some limited use in solo situations.

When I first saw the title of this post I thought it was throwing an insult at the title of this final patch while trying to say it was slow and boring, lol.

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Originally Posted by Fuma

When I first saw the title of this post I thought it was throwing an insult at the title of this final patch while trying to say it was slow and boring, lol.

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Me too, haha.

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Originally Posted by Jiao

Sleep and Repose are in a wierd situation due to the nature of the game. If I were to take a guess, I'd almost be willing to bet they remain as-is currently in the game. That is to say that: They will see most of their use in PvP with some limited use in solo situations.

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I've been wondering if skills like that will get switched to PVP only moves.

All of these status effects need an overhaul. If you look at out character information we have various resistances listed, which suggests that the combat system can apply resistance scores as modifiers against status attacks such as Sleep.

What needs to happen is that the chance to sleep something should be a base amount based on the player's attack potency and their level, modified by the target's resistance score. In this way, it becomes much less of a sure thing that you can sleep an equivalent level monster, but the chance remains, and as you gain levels and power, the chance of sleeping the same creature when you are more powerful increases - as it should.

But this resistance of higher level enemies to silence, pacification, bind, blind, sleep, and so on becomes increasingly annoying because it's obvious that instead of relying on an attack modified by resistance, most higher level enemies either are vulnerable or are immune. This needs to be fixed, and we need to be able to slot materia or learn specific skills to increase the power of status effects.

One other thing, there are several rings in the game that offers specific resistances to status attacks, such as the Geyshal ring which protects against the effects of 'heavy'. This again suggests that the combat system should be applying a modifier to the chance of the status attack succeeding. So why be lazy an make things immune instead of simply boosting their resistance?

Remember when sleeping the boss when the add came out in Brayflox was the ideal way to beat the boss rather than just burning it down since we're OP now? Yeah, they really removed a lot of potential utility from these and, heck, one time when I ran SV normal and wanted to sleep the sprites on that last optional room pull I got yelled at by the tank and healer for wanting to do it (to this day still not sure why, aside from maybe DoT ticks?).

Everything is an AOE zerg fest now, and they stopped making fights interesting so I don't see these spells making any kind of comeback sadly.

If trash in dungeons were a threat such spells would be useful. Hate to mention WoW again, but harder dungeons used to require use of spells such as polymorph or sap to remove mobs from the fight while killing the rest. That isn't the case anymore in legion as it is also a zerg fest.

I enjoyed planning pulls back then, be nice to see a difficulty increase.

i honestly forgot about sleep and repose.

Tbh it would be nice if they removed sleep from pvp too. Whm is currently the strongest healer class, as they can just sleep the enemy healer over and over, while the enemy team kills your team.

I can't see Sleep being made a core mechanic, because then you'd need to have people with Sleep in every fight. However, I could see tuning Sleep and abilities like it to make easy content easier, for instance. For instance, let's say there are two trash pulls with a single, Sleep-able mob that's nasty in a group between them. Without Sleep, you just pull them individually, but with Sleep you can pull all three together and then take the threat out of the fight, speeding things up. I'd like to see the game tuned so that "pull everything you possibly can" doesn't always work anyway, so I'd be all for this sort of thing.

Back when sleep and repose were used fairly often in dungeons, most classes had 0 AoE ability. There's no reason to retool sleep and repose for PvE use when you have such potent AoE ability in any given party make up. It's just a question of whether or not your DPS know their AoE rotation.

(Answer: most [melee] don't.)

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Back when sleep and repose were used fairly often in dungeons, most classes had 0 AoE ability. There's no reason to retool sleep and repose for PvE use when you have such potent AoE ability in any given party make up. It's just a question of whether or not your DPS know their AoE rotation.

(Answer: most [melee] don't.)

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Spamming constant AoE isn't fun nor interesting. Some instances should be more strategic than just spamming AoEs.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

Spamming constant AoE isn't fun nor interesting. Some instances should be more strategic than just spamming AoEs.

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I find a lot of strategy in planning the mass pulls, as a tank, actually. Wanderer's Palace comes to mind especially, with Provoke long distance tagging the door guards and LoS'ing the ghosts to group up in the corner so you can dodge the wanderer... It's fun.

Edit: Forgot the relevant part, SLEEPING the adventurers at the start to delay the spawn and speed up the run.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

Spamming constant AoE isn't fun nor interesting. Some instances should be more strategic than just spamming AoEs.

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To each his own opinion. I feel highly gratified seeing a 10+ HP bars taking damage while managing my cooldowns, skills and bars to keep up what I need to keep up to sustain damage needed. I find it a snooze fest to single target enemies- at least bosses are usually interesting enough that I'm not falling asleep. I don't enjoy tank and spank; it makes for poor and mindless gameplay.

On that statement, what would you consider strategic? SE has tinkered with quite a few dungeons and them being "strategic." The seeming majority of consistent dungeon runner prefer pulling large and AoEing and whichever dungeon can do that more efficiently tends to be the favored.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

I find a lot of strategy in planning the mass pulls, as a tank, actually. Wanderer's Palace comes to mind especially, with Provoke long distance tagging the door guards and LoS'ing the ghosts to group up in the corner so you can dodge the wanderer... It's fun.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

To each his own opinion. I feel highly gratified seeing a 10+ HP bars taking damage while managing my cooldowns, skills and bars to keep up what I need to keep up to sustain damage needed.

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It's fun for the tank, sure. As a DPS in that situation I feel the same as bass9020, it's boring and not particularly fun. I miss my single-target abilities in those situations.

Also worth noting that the post you were both responding to said:

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Originally Posted by bass9020

Spamming constant AoE isn't fun nor interesting. Some instances should be more strategic than just spamming AoEs.

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Tanks aren't the ones spamming constant AoE, so your responses aren't even acknowledging the original point.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

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That's fair.

Hilariously enough, the most good use of CC I've seen is in Palace of the Dead. I've seen stuns, sleeps, etc. do some work to recover from mistakes in there.

Honestly, it's one of the things I hope Battle System changes could refer to since CC abilities are just neglected atm. People just see them as instant damage and because of that by the time they become useful in certain content the mob has been a healthy resistance to the ability you had hoped to use to counter their ability. Shrugs, maybe a good idea would be to enhance a party when they properly counter a target. I say party cause I can easily see people fighting over getting the enanchment, so why not have a reward/penalty system instead of dmg attached to those abilities. You stun the target's ability? Well now you exploited the creature causing them to take additional dmg for 10 seconds or stop them attacking for 5 seconds.

Little rewards for following through on mechanics that would allow them to remove the dmg from CC abilities.

People forget that some of these CC abilities actually have uses in other content- just not on trash mobs in roulette dungeons for the most part. No, I don't mean Palace of the Dead, although that may be included.

It just dawned on me, too. Sleep/ repose only exist on WHM/ BLM respectively. SE has said they don't want to tie mechanics to jobs that you need to specifically bring. However, stuns and silences are strewn about many classes.

Sadly PvP is where they get the most use now.. The Devs stop caring about making interesting fights long time ago, everything is Grab them all and zerg them down as fast as possible. No room for strategy in the DPS Meta they've created, just Zerg as fast as you can. Admittedly that's getting boring. sleep is more of an emergency thing if your tank goes down but no one uses it that way (if at all). Hell even in PotD you can do it if you got a tank with decent light. Status effects as a whole need a serious rework or a potency buff or something because some of them are barely noticeable and we need more effects for player characters

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I can't see Sleep being made a core mechanic, because then you'd need to have people with Sleep in every fight.

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You have the cause and effect backwards. They can't have Sleep be a core mechanic because they can't guarantee that any balanced comp can have it.

Cross Role skills may fix this if Sleep/Repose end up in either of the Healer or Ranged dps pools. Putting it in the Healer pool would likely be the most advantageous as the could be used in light party content as well as full party content.

Is just the way they design the mob AI and placement design.

Couple years back, there used to be this f2p game I used to play where you'd have these turret mobs that would pop like 15 secs after the party engaged a pack. They would come with an invulnerability buff and every time you'd attack one, it would gain stat buffs or just move further away and it would go away after killing all other monsters or after a while. Dps had to use their CC (all of them had at least one), kill the current pack then take the last one down.

This is just one of the many examples where design makes CC skills have value.