Female Nunh?

Going off what I know about cats and gender (unrelated subjects), I get the impression that Nunh might actually qualify as a third gender in Seeker society. Well...I guess the asexual Tia might be the third gender, with them becoming traditionally "male" under specific circumstances, triggering actual hormonal changes in the former Tia. I think this may be related to the intensity of feline estrous, which would wreak havoc in a sentient species unless there were social constructs in place to adapt to it.

Given that Seeker biology and society seems very similar to African lions, this led me to wonder if it was possible that a Nunh might be female. There's a phenomenon among African lions wherein females in prides without males will actually grow manes and adopt the male lion's role. Similarly, in a tribe without any males (Tia or Nunh) might a female undergo similar hormonal changes and adopt the role of Nunh?

Put short: There is zero evidence or even hints that suggest anything of the kind.

From what we know, Nunh is merely a title bestowed to the Tia who attained breeding rights, which can go either via beating the former Nunh or by convincing females to breed with him (founding of a new clan). Nunh status does not equate to leadership within a tribe, and in fact, very few nunh ever become leaders.

That said... it is very likely that female Seekers become leaders among their tribe. It is very unlikely that they'll grow a weiner and become able to successfully breed, which is all the Nunh status entails.

As such... I do believe it's possible for a female Seeker to proclaim herself a Nunh. But I also believe that she'd be taken as serious as any random guy who proclaims himself president of the united states.

I... would really like to know where you're getting this "third gender" impression from.

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For a male Seeker of the Sun, there are only two positions available—breeding males (nunh – pronounced ‘noon’) and all others (tia – pronounced ‘tea-ah’). All males are born as tia. At any time in their lives, a tia can challenge the tribe nunh to battle. If the tia is victorious, he takes the nunh’s place as tribe breeding male (until he is challenged and defeated), and the nunh becomes a tia once again (if he survives the ordeal).

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Nunh and Tia are essentially titles bestowed upon male Seekers of the Sun that proclaim their status within the tribe. They are not their own genders by any means... Idek where you got that one. >< There are also no known tribes without males as far as I know and I don't see there being a male-less tribe any time soon... And even if there were?

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Originally Posted by Zojha

It is very unlikely that they'll grow a weiner and become able to successfully breed, which is all the Nunh status entails.

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Nunh = breeding male. Used for breeding. As in they do the impregnating. So... yeah. See above. ;;;;

EDIT: If you are interested in a female only tribe though and it's not totally lore breaking to create your own small one (Idk how often this would be done in Seeker culture, and afaik it hasn't been done in cannon), it could make sense. The leading female obviously wouldn't be a Nunh, just a tribe leader. I could see a female only tribe working somewhat like the Borlaaq Xaela tribe:

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A tribe of all women. While breeding with men from other tribes is allowed, if a male is born into the tribe, he is given up within a year of birth.

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Do not worry, fan art will make it (un)official.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

That said... it is very likely that female Seekers become leaders among their tribe. It is very unlikely that they'll grow a weiner and become able to successfully breed, which is all the Nunh status entails.

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Oy...I have a habit of writing very long and involved posts with lots of research, which this forum's format throws off like you wouldn't believe. This isn't at all what I was thinking would happen....unless you think that they're closer related to hyenas than lions, which...let's just say nature is weird. At any rate, as I pointed out there are female lions that grow manes and behave as males, actually having sex with the females of the pride when they're in estrous and fighting off males. Obviously no actual reproduction happens, but other than that they act just like male lions.

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Originally Posted by LuckyFish

Oy...I have a habit of writing very long and involved posts with lots of research, which this forum's format throws off like you wouldn't believe. This isn't at all what I was thinking would happen....unless you think that they're closer related to hyenas than lions, which...let's just say nature is weird. At any rate, as I pointed out there are female lions that grow manes and behave as males, actually having sex with the females of the pride when they're in estrous and fighting off males. Obviously no actual reproduction happens, but other than that they act just like male lions.

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Oy... you can bypass the post character limit by posting a few words then editing in the rest of your post (like I'm doing for this post). If you think "very long and involved posts with lots of research" aren't possible with this forum's format, you have yet to see the marvels that are Anonymoose's posts...

And again, there is absolutely no evidence in the lore to suggest that this occurs. In fact, aside from a few catlike features, the Miqo'te are very much more closely related to humans than any sort of cat. Just because their societal structure is built based off of that of lions (note I only mention this, as their biology actually doesn't point to lions specifically at all but rather just cats in general), doesn't mean every facet of their lives/the ways their bodies work are as well. (It's also stated in the Fat Cat minion's description that Miqo'te scholars actually strongly contest the idea that they may share ancestors with cats, even if their feline features, and other data from other researchers, suggest otherwise.) I mean, if you like the idea of a tribe of lesbian catgirls, more power to you. But it doesn't exist per the lore. Let alone the suggestion that female Seekers undergo chemical changes to more closely resemble males when a male is not present...

EDIT: Fat Cat's description:

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Despite convincing research by top academics from around the realm and beyond, most Miqo'te scholars refuse to believe that there may be some ancestral connection between their race and cats (fat or not).

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Also adding in, the Miqo'te are no more feline than the Auri are lizards in that they only seem to share some traits of physical appearances. From what we know of their biology, they are mostly human, save for some facets of their appearances.

Also:

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Do not worry, fan art will make it (un)official.

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Pretty sure fan art has probably already done this. And then some. ;;;; No offense to the OP but this whole idea/"theory" kinda reminds me of some off-the-wall wild and crazy fanfiction I'd read on Tumblr or AO3 or something. (And trust me, there's some crazy shizz out there for this game.)

I originally considered the possibility that Miqote might be a chimeric races created as a servant race by the Allagans as way to explain their feline traits but the lore book pretty much shot that theory down.

Miqo'te are not cats. Trying to apply real-world logic to fantasy races can be... sketchy at the best of times.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Put short: There is zero evidence or even hints that suggest anything of the kind.

From what we know, Nunh is merely a title bestowed to the Tia who attained breeding rights, which can go either via beating the former Nunh or by convincing females to breed with him (founding of a new clan). Nunh status does not equate to leadership within a tribe, and in fact, very few nunh ever become leaders.

That said... it is very likely that female Seekers become leaders among their tribe. It is very unlikely that they'll grow a weiner and become able to successfully breed, which is all the Nunh status

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I'm not sure that's true unless you have a different source.

From the lore book it says (under culture)

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The Seekers of the Sun are a highly patriarchal culture, with each tribe centered around a strong breeding male (nunh) whose duty it is to form a harem and lead his people to glory and prosperity.

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That seems very straight forward.

To the OP, I agree with others that there's no evidence of this happening to assume it is possible.
How alike they are to cats, biologically and behaviorally, is still up in the air.

However it does seem clear that Seekers societal structure was probably based around lions (especially since lions are the only really social cats). I don't think it's absurd to look at lion behavior and think maybe some aspect may be take place in Miqote tribes. I wouldn't be surprised if that's how the writers decide how to add such details in the first place.

But at least for now it's not known of and the Nunh being tied to breeding makes it unlikely. It's not totally far-fetched there might be an outlier tribe with a female leader though.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

I'm not sure that's true unless you have a different source.

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That sentence is a straight quote from:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ng-Conventions
(or the sticky at the top of this forum actually)
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1014930

If it says differently in the lore book, they might want to change that in the stickies... or future versions of the lore book.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

That sentence is a straight quote from:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ng-Conventions
(or the sticky at the top of this forum actually)
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1014930

If it says differently in the lore book, they might want to change that in the stickies... or future versions of the lore book.

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Interesting.
Sorry I missed that, but what I quoted did come directly from the encyclopedia. So it seems like a contradiction.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

It is very unlikely that they'll grow a weiner

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Why did this make me laugh so hard?! Dear gods, it really does sound like something out of AO3 (I would say "something out of the darkest corners of AO3", but anyone who's spent more than 5 seconds on that site knows that's not considered a dark corner).

To OP: While Miqo'te social structures may be similar to that of lions, Miqo'te biology, which is presumably what "hormonal changes" would fall under, is presumably more similar to that of humans than anything else. If you're just looking for lesbian catgirls... there's at least one female NPC in the U tribe that flirts a little with the player character in a quest, regardless of gender. It actually makes me wonder just how much sexual preferences would factor into tribe leadership, but I suppose a male Seeker who's only interested in other men wouldn't even bother competing for a Nunh title.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Interesting.
Sorry I missed that, but what I quoted did come directly from the encyclopedia. So it seems like a contradiction.

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The Lore Book has a huge amount of contradictions, some of which Koji is directly apologizing for, saying it was a mistake on his own department, so sadly we can't really call anything in the book 100% canon, only go with his concept that he explains that the world is misdirecting on purpose cause of communication errors.

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Originally Posted by Unittj

The Lore Book has a huge amount of contradictions, some of which Koji is directly apologizing for, saying it was a mistake on his own department, so sadly we can't really call anything in the book 100% canon, only go with his concept that he explains that the world is misdirecting on purpose cause of communication errors.

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Well if there are mistakes he is acknowleding we can at least hope for a future corrected edition with less contradictions.

Though this is super late, in case anyone else stumbles on this thread, adding this.
There does seem to be a contradiction in the lore book, as older official information seems to imply that nunhs can be leaders, but do not always take that position, though they do always bear the sole rights to breeding within the tribe unless the tribe is large enough to have two nunhs.
Further information that is now known leaves little question to the origins of miqo'te and firmly proves the scholars correct that miqo'te, despite their appearance, share no kinship with any beastkin, feline or otherwise, and are counted among the races of man. XD