Raiders of the lost 280 weapon

Hi, so I've decided to attempt to tackle the issue of all the negativity regarding the recent addition of iLvl 280 weapons

We've all noticed the huge number of complaints regarding these things, and from what I can gather, this all boils down to the mentality of "It's better than the raid/anima weapon, so my effort is invalidated"

Why don't we take a step back and look at this with some measure of rationality.
these people are complaining about a weapon that is very hard to get, thus meaning that only a select few will have it before SB, and even if you do get it, there's no guarantee that it will have the stats required to be BiS.

Even if someone has a BiS iLvl 280 weapon, does that mean that your iLvl 275 alexandrian weapon is going to delete itself from your account? No? then I don't see the problem.

I agree with ya, OP, and think the whole design philosophy of diadem is silly without the ilevel 280 weapons being taken into account. See, the thing is, all the whining and screaming is coming from people who don't have them, and don't understand the randomization factor.

The way I look at it, we're at the tail end of Heavensward, and all the content is pretty easy at this point. We've hit the skill ceiling, so what's the big deal really? It's all gonna be invalidated when Stormblood comes out anyway- at least, at the endgame of Stormblood. So worst case scenario, this is... what? 3 months of being just very slightly sub-optimal, for want of a slight edge that won't really help you clear content that's already easy to beat?

I really wish there was an ilevel 280 glass of spilled milk for this.

i think they added the 280 weapon not just for catch up, but as a seal trade. the higher the ilvl the more seals you get. People gonna need seals for the aether tickers and exp scrolls from grand company.

my guess they gonna add more ranks to gc too maybe increase seal cap.

I'm honestly not bothered by it. I rather have a guaranteed i275 weap over a rng based i280.

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and even if you do get it, there's no guarantee that it will have the stats required to be BiS.

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The secondary stats don't make the 280 best in slot, it's the primary stats and weapon damage that make the 280 BIS. It could just have parry on and it will still be decent. Any secondary stats are a bonus.

I already did A12S months ago and I've got the 275 Relic, but the real question is... Why do I need an i280 weapon? There's nothing harder than A12S and won't be until expansion, so why bother?

If people that didn't do A12S now gets that weapon, it will help them a bit, but they still have to beat the boss, and I think these weapons won't beat the boss for them.


Anyways, keep in mind this is a diagonal progressive MMO and stuff is going to get outdated. The only thing that remains is the satisfaction of completing something before the rest, and the achievement with the completion date in it.
I don't care if somebody that didn't touch Savage now gets a better weapon. Why does he need it anyway if he's going to skip Savage anyways? And if he plans to beat Savage with it, why should I bother?

No force in heaven or earth will keep people from complaining about anything ever. What do I say? Let the mortals weep.

It's about the journey, not the destination.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

The secondary stats don't make the 280 best in slot, it's the primary stats and weapon damage that make the 280 BIS. It could just have parry on and it will still be decent. Any secondary stats are a bonus.

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From the math I have seen the Primary stats and Weapon damage don't make the 280 best in Slot on its own. They actually have to have decent secondary stats to be equal or superior.

This was the explanation I read:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...apons/det1mk9/

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

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This \o/

My groups on 12S right now, none of us are pursuing the 280 weapon. If we beat it before SB then it's boils down to whether we were good enough or not and it's highly unlikely that Rng 280 weapons will be the difference between beating it or not.

Even if they were the difference, people that beat it before the 280 weapons achievement isn't invalidated, same as how it won't be invalidated when SB hits and a bunch of people unsync 9-12S at level 70.

On a side note I see far more "I ground out the anima for months" complaints over "I beat 12S multiple times for the Alex weapon" ones. So it seems to me the claims that raiders are "Crying" over it is actually more "casuals" whining about thier anima.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

From the math I have seen the Primary stats and Weapon damage don't make the 280 best in Slot on its own. They actually have to have decent secondary stats to be equal or superior.

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Let's see...

From the math, it looks like the weapon damage roughly compensates for the complete lack of one secondary and the main stat advantage compensates for around a third of the other secondary (just a quick glance at melee DPS).

On other words: You need around 90-100 "useful" secondaries total for the weapon to be better. This includes accuracy, since that means you can remove accuracy elsewhere to gain crit/det/whatever. I wouldn't necessary say you need "decent" stats - should be BiS as long as it isn't completely crap.

and you really couldnt say that in one of the other 23 threads already discussing this issue?

Nope, they don't really stay on topic long enough, and if they do, it's a sodium-filled festival of overreaction.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

Anyways, keep in mind this is a diagonal progressive MMO and stuff is going to get outdated. The only thing that remains is the satisfaction of completing something before the rest, and the achievement with the completion date in it.
I don't care if somebody that didn't touch Savage now gets a better weapon. Why does he need it anyway if he's going to skip Savage anyways? And if he plans to beat Savage with it, why should I bother?

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Diagonal? Not sure. I think there is more vertical than horizontal, plus the progression revolves around one thing - ilvl. To me the progression seems almost lke an upward spiral with some horizontal movement, but unceasing upward progression.

What I think is funny is that the player base pissed and moaned that diadem gear was garbage and pretty much worthless when it was first implemented.

Now there is something worth attempting to get (other than mounts and minions) in there and people STILL piss and moan about it. No wonder Yoshi had a bad attitude.

While I do agree that it's not the end of the world, the problem isn't that the weapon is "really hard to get".

The problem is that a stronger weapon exists out there better than the anima we spent dozens of hours for or the Creator weapon we raided for.

Everyone was under the Impression that this was our ultimate weapons. The strongest in the game, and we worked hard for it. Only to find out that another weapon much stronger (BIS doesn't only relate to substats, WD is a huge factor) was added on a whim and locked behind an absurd amount of RNG to the point where we couldn't get it even if we attempted to.

Basically, raiders and Anima owners who assumed all their effort was going into the best weapon currently in the game were suddenly slapped across the face with a batter weapon they can't have.

All that aside, it's bad practice to suddenly trivialize gear just for incentive to run side content. PoTD didn't need some monstrously strong weapon afterall.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

To me the progression seems almost lke an upward spiral with some horizontal movement, but unceasing upward progression.

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All progression, by nature, is a straight one-way street, because if you don't progress, you can only either regress or don't move at all.

Similarly, any item in the game is either an upgrade, a downgrade or equivalent from your current standpoint. That goes for every slot and purpose equally - A new DEX ring might be an upgrade for your MCH, but it would be a clear downgrade for your WAR.

So if "Vertical Progression" is an increasing power level on one axis, "Horizontal Progression" would need to be an increasing level of "something" on a different axis and that axis has to be something that is related to, but doesn't affect power level. Basically a 2-dimensional coordinate system. That implies the potential for even more dimensional progression models that can't be graphically imagined anymore but can be described via vector spaces.

Curious to think about. Strangely enough however, most people who say "Horizontal Progression" really just mean a different mode of vertical (augments, bonus traits, glyphs etc).

The problem with it isn't really any "it invalidates my weapon"
It's more just the idea of it, and to a lesser extent the 280 weapons are grossly over-itemized for no apparent reason

It's like an MMO is supposed to be like a living thing that players in it grow and evolve their character along with the game. Like you have anima weapons that people have spent a year piecing together bit by bit growing alongside them and it should feel like this great accomplishment when you finally get it finished
and you have raid weapons that you have to really work hard for learning and practicing and putting forth real teamwork towards that end goal
And there are the trial weapons that are trophies of accomplishments

then you have this skill-free blob of a zone trying to make something that was an utter failure into something that can at least be considered passable and it seems the only way they can even imagine it will attract anyone is by making it just vomit out loot at an insane rate while requiring almost nothing from the players. Every time you go in you get like 3+ weeks worth of tomestones in armor, a ton of tokens that can be traded for tens of thousands of gil worth of materia or items, minions and a previously fairly tough to get mount easy as can be, tons of previously rare gathering items just common as dirt all over the place, and then the cherry on top of it all is it randomly drops weapons(way more often than the forums try to make you believe) that for no apparent reason just trump out literally everything else possible, with no challenge existing that would even remotely need them to pass, for no apparent reason having stats that are 5-10 item levels past their already kind of ridiculous stated item level.
Why not make it drop something that's at least logical like tokens that can be traded for gobdip so people can continue with their previous efforts and upgrade shire weapons?

It's like the whole zone is just the dev team bribing players to make it look like it's some great and fun idea

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Originally Posted by Zojha

All progression, by nature, is a straight one-way street, because if you don't progress, you can only either regress or don't move at all.

Similarly, any item in the game is either an upgrade, a downgrade or equivalent from your current standpoint. That goes for every slot and purpose equally - A new DEX ring might be an upgrade for your MCH, but it would be a clear downgrade for your WAR.

So if "Vertical Progression" is an increasing power level on one axis, "Horizontal Progression" would need to be an increasing level of "something" on a different axis and that axis has to be something that is related to, but doesn't affect power level. Basically a 2-dimensional coordinate system. That implies the potential for even more dimensional progression models that can't be graphically imagined anymore but can be described via vector spaces.

Curious to think about. Strangely enough however, most people who say "Horizontal Progression" really just mean a different mode of vertical (augments, bonus traits, glyphs etc).

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I tend to think of horizontal progression as more about adding more utility or changing how some skill works or it's effects. For horizontal progression in XIV, the closest I can see is to remove your soul stone to get 10 cross-class abilities and really changing up your class completely; for example WAR crossing raging strikes and B4B as MRD in the old level 50 PvP content and becoming a super tanky dps or MNK dropping their soulstone and picking up defensive cross class skills and becoming a kind of baby tank, SMN or BLM dropping their stone and picking up cleric stance and crossing healing/shielding skills to roll a DPS/Healer. This is what I miss from the class system once you pick up your soul stone. Unfortunately, you lose a lot of vertical progression and role optimization when doing something like this; but it does make for some very unique and customizable play styles. Even if something similar were available under the current (or new stormblood) job system a penultimate combination would be found to compliment each job and it would still be another type of vertical progression.

Problem is that it breaks their design philosophy for a short term gain at best (bribing people into Diadem), whilst needlessly alienating players. Once you get past the i280 issue, you end up with a shallow piece of content meaning in essence SE had no faith in Diadem being able to stand on its own. The EM concept could've been expanded on, like having different versions with different objectives and range of rewards. Instead you get a map littered with FATEs that, outside of the boss ones, aren't worth doing.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

Problem is that it breaks their design philosophy for a short term gain at best (bribing people into Diadem), whilst needlessly alienating players. Once you get past the i280 issue, you end up with a shallow piece of content meaning in essence SE had no faith in Diadem being able to stand on its own. The EM concept could've been expanded on, like having different versions with different objectives and range of rewards. Instead you get a map littered with FATEs that, outside of the boss ones, aren't worth doing.

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I have some basic level of faith that Yoshi will take the feedback given on this experiment and work it into Eureka. I'll give an "I Told You So" voucher to anyone who wants one for throwing in my face if Eureka falls into the same pit, though.

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Originally Posted by Kuroneko_Jutah

I have some basic level of faith that Yoshi will take the feedback given on this experiment and work it into Eureka. I'll give an "I Told You So" voucher to anyone who wants one for throwing in my face if Eureka falls into the same pit, though.

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Except the damage is already done. I've unsubbed, but even if I didn't after having all the time, gil and effort put into my anima invalidated after nine days, there is no way in hell I'd step foot in Eureka. Fool me once, Yoshi-P...

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Originally Posted by Xerek

Except the damage is already done. I've unsubbed, but even if I didn't after having all the time, gil and effort put into my anima invalidated after nine days, there is no way in hell I'd step foot in Eureka. Fool me once, Yoshi-P...

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And that's your prerogative. Vote with your wallet. Personally, I enjoy this game, and have for over three years. I'm not going to cry over some nebulous bullshit weapon that appeared three months before the next expansion when my priorities have already shifted to pre-Stormblood preparations. If nothing else, your completed Anima is going to give you an edge for your 4.0 relic. Take pride in it for that reason at least, if nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Kuroneko_Jutah

And that's your prerogative. Vote with your wallet. Personally, I enjoy this game, and have for over three years. I'm not going to cry over some nebulous bullshit weapon that appeared three months before the next expansion when my priorities have already shifted to pre-Stormblood preparations. If nothing else, your completed Anima is going to give you an edge for your 4.0 relic. Take pride in it for that reason at least, if nothing else.

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A headstart on another weapon that will be invalidated in nine days? See my prior response, even if I didn't unsub there is no way in hell I'd get duped into stepping foot in Eureka.

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Originally Posted by Xerek

A headstart on another weapon that will be invalidated in nine days? See my prior response, even if I didn't unsub there is no way in hell I'd get duped into stepping foot in Eureka.

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I've never really been too keen on anima progression, never even did 2.0 relic, but isn't this the first patch that had it as almost BiS? I always thought it was the same ilvl as the raid tier.

And also, people know what kind of a grind relic is. If I see someone with the 280 I'd think, they were lucky. If I see the relic, then I think they are dedicated.

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Originally Posted by Xerek

A headstart on another weapon that will be invalidated in nine days? See my prior response, even if I didn't unsub there is no way in hell I'd get duped into stepping foot in Eureka.

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Nice hyperbole. And again, that's your prerogative. I personally like to attempt new content before dismissing it offhand as garbage, because I'm capable of keeping an open mind. If you're so jaded and angry about the game at this stage, maybe you do need to take a break or find something else to play that better fits your preferences.

And fyi: your weapon wasn't invalidated in nine days. It was invalidated in less than nine seconds after you heard about the 280 and decided the time you spent was wasted. You decided that your weapon was worthless. I'm personally going to finish my relic this time around because I feel it has a value beyond its item level, stats, or BiS status.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

From the math I have seen the Primary stats and Weapon damage don't make the 280 best in Slot on its own. They actually have to have decent secondary stats to be equal or superior.

This was the explanation I read:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...apons/det1mk9/

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If that is suggesting both a MCH and a BRD do better with the weapon just as long as it gets 81 skill speed, then it is clearly wrong.

also I do not understand it, it appears to be leaving out the primary stat gain too