How would you feel if there were NO MORE MENTORS

The year was 2017, Mentor crimes were at an all time high...it was time for justice.
*Knight Rider theme song starts*

Then the topics will be "I got kicked from xxxxxx" just without "by the mentor".

To me, meh, mentor doesn't really mean anything in this game.

Indifferent.

I don't need a symbol to help people if they have questions.

I'd be fine without it. as long as there was a non-cash shop way to get the rewards

This mentor hate is getting ridiculous.
You think those people gonna stop being harsh to other people just because they ain't mentor anymore ? Genius.

Remove the rewards for being a mentor and then you will only see good ones, hell i want this 2 seats pegasus.

I wouldn't have to force myself to run 2000 mentor roulette for a mount.

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Originally Posted by Watachy

This mentor hate is getting ridiculous.
You think those people gonna stop being harsh to other people just because they ain't mentor anymore ? Genius.

Remove the rewards for being a mentor and then you will only see good ones, hell i want this 2 seats pegasus.

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But how would it make you feel losing them?

Honestly, I hate how people always have to tag on "by a mentor!" in their posts about getting kicked.

The mentor system is not the problem. The problem is bad players using mentor system. You would've still been kicked because bad players abusing a system for a prize are bad.

Honestly the requirements should be changed from what it is to something akin to a peer review. If someone applies for mentor, after the end of a non-premade party, a random member of the group (maybe also requiring different servers just in case) may occasionally get a "how helpful was this person to your group? popup. They have to meet a certain requirement to be accepted into the mentor system. They then have to maintain a certain ranking from future groups that would still get a popup for them, or else get removed from it. Of course, to deal with people that troll the ranking and vote 0 for everytime, they should have a couple days to make it back up.

Make the mount reward based on keeping a very high ranking (like if a five-star scale, make them have to maintain a 4.5 or higher rank) for X number of mentor roulette.

See how many people can still get the mount.

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Originally Posted by Violyre

Honestly, I hate how people always have to tag on "by a mentor!" in their posts about getting kicked.

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I put it in caps because those titles make me laugh, like "how dare you!"
But would you miss the mentor system?

It seems you need to blame someone and the good mentor will pay because there are stupid mentors. Instead of remove mentor system I prefer remove bad mentors. It is simple as "This mentor insulted a player, leave a instance because didn't like it, refuse to help other or kick someone for being new or inexperienced" and remove his status for a time. If he repeat, then remove it forever.

But hey, it is better call all mentors stupid and insult them, even good ones.

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Originally Posted by Newmanxeno

I put it in caps because those titles make me laugh, like "how dare you!"
But would you miss the mentor system?

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I mean I've helped quite a lot of players in the mentor chat as well as queue mentor roulette quite often and offer advice. Not everyone who does mentor staff is horrible.

But I've seen tons of mentors give terrible advice and/or queue content with the mentor crown on and do nothing to help. I only wear the crown during mentor roulette because it forces you to. But apart from what I don't use it because people who do have a bad rep.

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Originally Posted by Newmanxeno

I put it in caps because those titles make me laugh, like "how dare you!"
But would you miss the mentor system?

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Oh, I knew this wasn't another pure "omg all mentors are bad because one kicked someone for asking a question" thing. You just happened to have just the spot I needed to complain about it, rather than make the 596 kerjillionth thread with "point to where the mentor touched you." :D

Honestly I don't care either way. I did my mentor business before the system even existed (I have a post in the DF Story thread somewhere a long time back about a Sastasha group I loved because I got to teach three people how to play. :D). Only thing I have now is another queue that'll probably give me something I really don't want to do ever again (I'm looking at you, Coil >.>).

I would feel sad about novices losing the great resource that the NN is. Losing the Mentor Roulette and crown icons would make me feel indifferent.

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Originally Posted by Lauren

But I've seen tons of mentors give terrible advice and/or queue content with the mentor crown on and do nothing to help. I only wear the crown during mentor roulette because it forces you to.

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I love when mentors don't have any clue about their own rotations but still give advices to newcomers.

"Hell yeah i have 700DPS with my i270 full set with a 275 BRD relic, to play properly your BRD you have to do like me !"
No, just no.

Honestly? I'd just be happy not to get invite-spammed with the novice network thing anymore on my alts.

Otherwise, I'd be completely indifferent. It doesn't seem to actually do anything worth mentioning except maybe reduce city /shout a little.

Ditch the crown completely. We don't need an icon.
As for the rewards, change them from "Do 2k mentor roulettes" to something like "Recieve 1000 commendations while participating in mentor roulette".
This would force people to actually Mentor... Rather than just completing a roulette regardless whether the newbie is still in the instance or not..
Adding to this, the achievment could also require a sprout to be in the instance for the final boss kill.

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On our server, the Novice Network is actually pretty good.

By that I mean there are very minimal arguments among mentors, are generally helpful, and a lot of newbies that ask questions get pretty good answers rather quickly.
I actually wonder what it would be like to be a newbie without the NN, considering there is so much content / unlock quests etc between 2.0 to now... With many rather unsure about where to look for answers.

We all know how poorly SE are at actually educating players.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Honestly? I'd just be happy not to get invite-spammed with the novice network thing anymore on my alts.

Otherwise, I'd be completely indifferent. It doesn't seem to actually do anything worth mentioning except maybe reduce city /shout a little.

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I think it's silly that you have to "invite" people to the NN... Sprouts should just get auto-added from the start with the ability to leave if they wish..
You should also be able to turn your sprout OFF if you wish - for instances like what you mentioned (a vet who isn't actually a new player)..

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Originally Posted by Altena

You should also be able to turn your sprout OFF if you wish - for instances like what you mentioned (a vet who isn't actually a new player)..

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/nastatus off

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Originally Posted by Squigley

/nastatus off

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Good to know! I was rather surprised by Zojha's issue with invite spam on their alts. I presumed this was possible, but then assumed that it wasn't after they had issues with invite spam.

Thanks for the info!

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Originally Posted by Squigley

/nastatus off

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^The above.

It's also the easiest (only?) way to actually leave the novice network. But it's still annoying that you have to do that extra >_>

I love the Mentor system. I turned off my crown almost immediately though as I've never seen anyone who has one actually taking care of anyone, and it gives me a weird feeling of embarrassment. I've never done Mentor Roulette; I don't tend to like roulettes because you're always grouped up with people who are grinding and it's boring.

But the Novice Network is great. The other day a novice shyly asked whether it would be ok to set up a party in there to do the story version of Shiva (my server is tiny and the chat is usually dead). Seconds later she had a full group of seven Mentors - pretty much everyone signed into the NN that day - and had a great time in the fight which we all did synced, letting her watch the cutscenes and encouraging her. Nobody got a Mentor Roulette reward, nobody got to show off, but everyone had fun and the newbie got her clear. I don't want that taken away just because a few idiots are inexplicably being rewarded for poor behaviour on other worlds.

I like the idea to make the Mentor rewards driven more by the quality of mentoring provided. If invite spam is an issue (again, it's not on my world...) then maybe let the newbies select an 'unsolicited invite' option with the invite which penalises the Mentor in question if they do it enough. Nobody needs to be a Mentor, so I don't see a problem with punishing people if the sprouts find their 'help' less than useful.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

^The above.

It's also the easiest (only?) way to actually leave the novice network. But it's still annoying that you have to do that extra >_>

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The way to leave the NN that I knew of was clicking the little "Sprout" button under the chatbox (which brings up the full list of Mentors, NAs & Returners), then clicking "Leave".

I got mentor just because the crown looks like the kingdom hearts one I: That being said, I do explain stuff and help people out.

Having been a part of the mentor system for a few months...I dunno how I'd feel about it being gone. I got tired of actually receiving hate for being a mentor because people assume the worst out of them, so I took my tag off completely and don't bother with it much anymore. But for the people it's helped I only hope they would find something different to put in its place.

Maybe the reward system needs to be retooled. Please forgive me if any of these ideas are dumb.

Novice Network access works exactly as it does now; players who meet the requirements are allowed to join and connect with people who need some extra help.
Inviting new players can be limited to a certain number of invites which refreshes periodically, like inviting players back from your friend list in the current callback campaign. The idea being that people will feel less inclined to spam them out randomly, but if they run out they can still ask another Mentor to invite and promote actual conversations between helpers. Making it feel like more of a network.
The crown is unlocked after receiving ___ commendations from sprouts using the NN, after you become a Mentor, which isn't visibly tracked anywhere in the interface to discourage grinding it out (except in the NN where a crown is always shown, as it is already).
The mount is unlocked after receiving ___ commendations from sprouts using the NN in Mentor Roulette (I don't care if I never get this).

It would be super nice if the crown could specifically be given out by S-E staff who silently check the chat now and again so it actually meant something, but I won't hold my breath on that.

It's funny how all those "I have been kicked by a Mentor" guys can't actually know if they were kicked by a mentor.
Only exception: all of the other 3/7 members of the party were mentors.
The system doesn't tell you who initiated the kickvote so... how can they tell? ö.ö

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Originally Posted by Serilda

The idea being that people will feel less inclined to spam them out randomly, but if they run out they can still ask another Mentor to invite and promote actual conversations between helpers.

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We don't spam invites for fun. The game itself asks us to invite each and every (apparently legit) sprout we see since the system cannot be automated. If I see a sprout and send them an invite it's because I genuinely think they might find it helpful, and if they don't want to it's easy to decline. :/

The icon being a crown is a mistake though, and I've said it too since day one. It needs to be something way more neutral, kind of like the big M in a circle that FFXI had. Hardly anybody used that except they felt like answering questions.
http://www.playonline.com/comnewsus/...0420b/im05.jpg

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Originally Posted by Wilan

We don't spam invites for fun. The game itself asks us to invite each and every (apparently legit) sprout we see since the system cannot be automated. If I see a sprout and send them an invite it's because I genuinely think they might find it helpful, and if they don't want to it's easy to decline. :/

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I think this might be a cultural difference thing but on my server we always engage the sprout in a conversation first to check whether it's helpful or not. It would be seen as very rude to silently invite someone and automatically declined. I have never been spammed when fooling around on my alt, but I have had people offer me help as a precursor to sending me an invite (which I declined).

The FFXI Mentor icon was a lot less... emotionally charged, yes. I think some of my acquaintances who use the Crown but never set foot in NN simply view it as an icon which means 'I won FFXIV' rather than an offer of support.

I know this is a bit of a joke post but it's a genuine subject for discussion.

Personally? I like mentors. I was recently a returner and found a lot of help within the NN. My mentors were lovely and (almost) always there to help. There were a few frustrating situations when I was trying to get some help but there was a completely off-topic conversation taking place, for example when i asked a question twice and it got lost/ignored both times since everyone was talking about anime/hentai. Aside from that though, the mentors I met were lovely and very helpful.

But perhaps there could be some sort of "mentor review" system in place? Like perhaps when you are ejected from novice network you're given the choice to give a 1-5 rating on mentors with an option box for comments? This feedback could then be distributed anonymously to mentors and if their rating dropped below 3 for example then they would have their mentor status revoked? Just an idea (probably not a good one lmao)

I feel that this is purely a western playerbase issue.

Said it once, I'll say it again, the novice network and mentorship really didn't add anything to the game.

However, this is a very limited and biased statement. I don't know its success in Europe. I especially don't know its success in Japan. It could very well be a case of the Westerners ruin everything, which I'm inclined to believe here.

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Originally Posted by Clethoria

I feel that this is purely a western playerbase issue.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Said it once, I'll say it again, the novice network and mentorship really didn't add anything to the game.

However, this is a very limited and biased statement. I don't know its success in Europe. I especially don't know its success in Japan. It could very well be a case of the Westerners ruin everything, which I'm inclined to believe here.

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yeah almost no problems with JP mentors (the worst i've seen are just silent ones who don't care what's happening) over here in my datacentre. and the japanese mentors on my server are actually very helpful and accommodating.

most of the bad rep i read about mentors are from the stuff i read here and on reddit.


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that said, maybe if they remove or change the crown icon might fix these MENTOR attitudes

If anything I would say it's more important on JP worlds. People are a lot more shy and don't tend to reach out for help, so giving them a channel specifically for giving and receiving support opens a lot of doors. From my brief visit to a couple of western servers, the atmosphere is completely different - many people will post chatty PFs and shout for help the second they get stuck. I have literally never seen any kind of help shout in my entire time on the server, and every single unsolicited /tell I've had has been from an English-speaking person, not a Japanese-speaker.

Closing the novice network on Japanese servers would feel really cruel when I've never seen even the slightest trace of abuse within it.

I actually like the idea of changing it to an M, like in FFXI. I'll still use it when I'm helping people, and turn it off when I aren't helping people (as in, doing my own stuff). And whenever I put that crown on, it becomes "Help them to the best of my ability or delete your SE account" for me. I take the role extremely seriously, possibly too much so, that I treat it like I'm a teacher and I cannot afford to get it wrong. But I won't give up on someone unless it's absolutely necessary (e.g. Garuda Ex in mentor roulette, one of the tanks doesn't have provoke, we have a few attempts without it to see if we can do it but the lack of provoke is making it impossible for us, so we let the guy know how to get provoke and stuff and wish him all the best before kicking him, explaining that unfortunately there's nothing we can do in this duty to get around the lack of provoke. I felt horrible kicking the guy as a mentor but we were out of options at that point). The other mentor swaps over to a tank, we get a DPS to replace the DPS role that they swapped out from to become tank, everyone has a nice good run, having learned the fight (there were other newbies in the instance), and getting the kill. Changing the mentor system around or even removing it entirely won't stop me from helping people get synced kills.

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Originally Posted by Serilda

Closing the novice network on Japanese servers would feel really cruel when I've never seen even the slightest trace of abuse within it.

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Entirely different social realms. Which is why I feel it's just the west that has this issue. Americans are bred to be competitive and stand out. We dont have a "the nail that sticks up gets hammered down" mentality. EU takes a more non confrontational approach to issues. But the East is just many things the west is not.

The issue isn't the mentor system, it's the players that get to wear the crown. Not all US/EU mentors are bad either.

inb4 English players suck! Blah blah blah Americans!!!

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Originally Posted by Clethoria

I feel that this is purely a western playerbase issue.

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Yup I agree, I feel one of the most golden rules in life the Western Audience needs to appreciate is "your opinion has zero weight if you have no knowledge of the topic"
Theres a lot of hate for mentors which I feel are extremely unfounded.

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Originally Posted by Watachy

...Remove the rewards for being a mentor and then you will only see good ones

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Your suggestion matching 100% what it needs be done to get away with people that just wanna reap the rewards.

Back to the topic, if that happens I will feel as it being a debacle for the Mentoring idea because the community.

I'd be kinda sad as i just got my crown after working towards it for so long. It's not like i didn't help before but now that the icon is there it makes it easier to feel confident that i'm not just going to get a 'fuck off'. I've specifically researched what the basics of most classes are even if i have no interest in playing them so i can talk about that at the very least for job advice.

I'd like to see reform, because a mentor wandering in and going 'LOOK EVERYBODY I'M HERE' in NN is frustrating and I still support the idea of changing the icon to a watering can as a much better solution.

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Originally Posted by Karathix

changing the icon to a watering can.

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Actually, I think that is much better than the M. It would show we're there to nurture the sprouts.

Gained it and after removed it. I will help regardless if there is a crown or a program. But the sheer number of new players that either are beyond rude or don't want to intake helping to just ruin the others fun made me not wanting to take part of it.This doesn't excuse the way some 'mentors' behave as most are just bad players.
There is just too much to do and experience ingame that these little negative runs can't ruin or be overwhelming truth be told.But people tend to overthink and overreact when something doesn't go as they expect and then try to vent it instead of just focusing on other things that are enjoyable.
My 2 cents on the matter, help the players to enjoy the game and also always try to enjoy it yourself, not only to gain rewards.