[Dev suggestion] More strict stat checks when entering duty finer/tutorial tests

Notice I said stat checks, not gear level. It is too easy to bypass the gear level requirement. My friend entered an expert just before the maint and was heal stressing because the one bard could not DPS well. It did not help that the tank did not know how position stuff too. My healer friend and DPS friend had to carry the run pretty much, with the healer being overstressed. A person shouldn't be that stressed trying to keep someone alive within an expert.


Something needs to be done with gear/stats, meaning stats need more balancing, like stop giving DET to a BRD if you can't program it to be effective for BRDs, or split MCH/BRD gear because it is 2 different classes as far as stats goes. There is too limited picks for MCH and BRD because of the combining and splitting accuracy, crit, DET, and skill speed. For example, why is there no 260 hat with crit/ acc or crit/det? make them less complex, and if you have no clue how do that, to make it easier on people to understand, then get rid of the accuracy stat. It is useless in this game anyway, and only makes healers stress over it raids. Finally there needs tutorial tests so people know how to play, esp with the jump potions coming out.

Finally we need a stat checker as in you need x amount of vit (for tank), x amount of mind for healer, x amount of strength for drg/mnk, x amount of def for brd/mch, along with a minimum weapon requirement. We do not need average gear level requirement, since that is too easy to bypass such as:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...s-this-allowed

Enough is enough, stop stressing healers that chose to use the party finder.

oh boy, another one.

*ducks and hides with a bag of popcorn*

As a fun fact, I can enter The Creator with a Replica Relic weapon (this is Level 50, i50 and has 13 VIT and 13 INT. It has no secondary stats). With the current gear I have on + the Replica, it drops me down to i231, which is enough for me to enter The Creator. With a little more i270 pieces, I could probably enter Sophia EX/Expert Roulette.

Just before maintanence, needed to do one last DR:Expert.

The DRG in the party was red dotting / dc'ing while in the first cutscene so scoped out their gear.

They had a whole tonne of 260/270 stuff, both left and right side but their weapon was a.... True Ice Spear!

As in, the i110 lvl 50 Shiva weapon..

At level 60.
In a DR:Ex....

I mean.... This was a mistake right? Surely they were just trying on some glamour before they entered and they were going to switch when we started the dungeon...
Honestly won't know because they D/c'd after 5-10 mins of being stuck in the little force field thingy at the start so we couldn't finish our DR:Ex anyway.

As far as a stat check is concerned - I think there should be a "minimum weapon iLvl" check as well.. Weapon damage just accounts for far too much, regardless what role you are playing.
If you're a DPS, your damage is rubbish.
If you're a Tank, you can't hold hate.
If you're a Healer, your heals do very little and your nukes hit like a wet noodle.

You shouldn't be able to inflate your iLvl passed the DF if your weapon is trash because it just means too much.

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As far as actual substats - I don't think that is necessary.. Though I can see a main-stat check considering as a DPS you can toss on a whole bunch 270 of Mind or Vit accessories just to inflate your iLvl.

So a BRD was bad and they should be given gear with better stats because they're bad (?) so your friend/other healers don't have to worry about healing them (?).

I agree with that other thread about making a weapon weighted more heavily in the ilv, but I'm a little lost here.

Op I as an whm get groups like that at least twice a day. People like that have no place here. I even got kicked out of an fc because one player like as you described was defending crap players. I for one as well as several excellent players who know jobs we play well, geared right, attributed right, highly skilled. I will give advice to new players in groups if they ask, as to why they have to want it. At patch 3.5,3.55 ect one should be excellent.

Speaking as a white mage main, it's duty finder. You roll with what you get or you leave and try again. Might have to take a penalty if they won't kick you, but that's the risk you take.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Speaking as a white mage main, it's duty finder. You roll with what you get or you leave and try again. Might have to take a penalty if they won't kick you, but that's the risk you take.

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You don't really have to leave or demand to be kicked. You just ask if the DPS is doing alright and if they need help with their rotation. If they say no and continue to be a numpty, then you can boot them for their difference in playstyle (or lack thereof). Same applies to tanks and healers.

If the kick fails, I'd leave. I might be playing a game to waste time, but I don't like wasting time while wasting time (I leave and then play other games or see if the weather is cool enough for my dog to walk on the pavement).

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Speaking as a white mage main, it's duty finder. You roll with what you get or you leave and try again. Might have to take a penalty if they won't kick you, but that's the risk you take.

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SHHHH Stop making sense!

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Originally Posted by Nestama

You don't really have to leave or demand to be kicked. You just ask if the DPS is doing alright and if they need help with their rotation. If they say no and continue to be a numpty, then you can boot them for their difference in playstyle (or lack thereof).

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Usually if a party I'm in DF with is having trouble, I'll give it a try and then discuss with them if we're having troubles we just can't seem to get past about abandoning so we can try again with others. If their attitude is bad, I'll just leave. I personally find hiding behind the "difference in playstyle" reason to be a baby about what you got in DF is pretty childish, but again, that's just me and why I won't do it. There are a wide variety of playstyles and ability levels in the game. I signed up for that risk of randomness when I used DF. If I want to outline parameters, I use PF.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Just before maintanence, needed to do one last DR:Expert.

The DRG in the party was red dotting / dc'ing while in the first cutscene so scoped out their gear.They had a whole tonne of 260/270 stuff, both left and right side but their weapon was a.... True Ice Spear!

As in, the i110 lvl 50 Shiva weapon..

At level 60.
In a DR:Ex....

I mean.... This was a mistake right? Surely they were just trying on some glamour before they entered and they were going to switch when we started the dungeon...
Honestly won't know because they D/c'd after 5-10 mins of being stuck in the little force field thingy at the start so we couldn't finish our DR:Ex anyway.

As far as a stat check is concerned - I think there should be a "minimum weapon iLvl" check as well.. Weapon damage just accounts for far too much, regardless what role you are playing.
If you're a DPS, your damage is rubbish.
If you're a Tank, you can't hold hate.
If you're a Healer, your heals do very little and your nukes hit like a wet noodle.

You shouldn't be able to inflate your iLvl passed the DF if your weapon is trash because it just means too much.

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As far as actual substats - I don't think that is necessary.. Though I can see a main-stat check considering as a DPS you can toss on a whole bunch 270 of Mind or Vit accessories just to inflate your iLvl.

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I did say weapon too in the first post. If my friend tells me a brd needs 630 skill speed or the dots are really bad, then there needs secondary total stats. Unless SE gets rid of accuracy making people have no choice in the matter on how the secondaries are disrupted

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Originally Posted by Rokke

So a BRD was bad and they should be given gear with better stats because they're bad (?) so your friend/other healers don't have to worry about healing them (?).

I agree with that other thread about making a weapon weighted more heavily in the ilv, but I'm a little lost here.

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No that is not what i am saying. I do not even know where you got that idea.

Because skill speed is so important to BRD, BRD gear is split between what is good for BRD and what is good for MCH. Also in general, accuracy sub stat makes how to gear so limited to begin with with the amount of gear we are given to pick from. Since you are basically dividing this because MCH and BRD are 2 different sets, there is little room to show people that do not look up weighs on what is good for them.

So to fix this one or more of the following should happen:
Split BRD and MCH gear, as in 2 different jobs, MNK and MCH do not wear the same thing, it is no different then making MCH have shared gear with BRD.
Get rid of accuracy. it makes it too hard to gear with our limited picks.
Balance the sub stats so it matters less.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Speaking as a white mage main, it's duty finder. You roll with what you get or you leave and try again. Might have to take a penalty if they won't kick you, but that's the risk you take.

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There shouldn't be a "risk" the game should not allow it to begin with. Also this is not an option before a maint.

Ghh I hate sharing gear with BRD... I cringe when I think of all the skillspeed I've got all of which is useless to me...

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Usually if a party I'm in DF with is having trouble, I'll give it a try and then discuss with them if we're having troubles we just can't seem to get past about abandoning so we can try again with others. If their attitude is bad, I'll just leave. I personally find hiding behind the "difference in playstyle" reason to be a baby about what you got in DF is pretty childish, but again, that's just me and why I won't do it. There are a wide variety of playstyles and ability levels in the game. I signed up for that risk of randomness when I used DF. If I want to outline parameters, I use PF.

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I treat DF in a way where I expect everyone to work as a team and carry their own weight if the moment demands it (most of my DF's are this), not a 'you deal with what you get' way, as that can enable bad behaviour in players (they don't get 'punished' for being carried, so they think it's okay. Especially if you decide to leave when they become rude).

If I see a BLM using only Tier III spells (spamming Fire III and then spamming Blizzard III), I'll inform them that that rotation is not good and that casting Fire is better (or using Enochian and Fire IV in a F4x2, Fire, F4x2, B3, B4 rotation if in L60 content). If they ignore my advice, I'll bring it up again. If they ignore it again, or get rude about it, then I (try to) kick them.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Ghh I hate sharing gear with BRD... I cringe when I think of all the skillspeed I've got all of which is useless to me...

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exactly, that is what I mean, I do not get what confused you, Rokke

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Originally Posted by Nestama

I treat DF in a way where I expect everyone to work as a team and carry their own weight if the moment demands it (most of my DF's are this), not a 'you deal with what you get' way, as that can enable bad behaviour in players (they don't get 'punished' for being carried, so they think it's okay. Especially if you decide to leave when they become rude).

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Usually the ones who are rude are the ones who bitch about low DPS without trying to fix anything. I can count on one hand the number of parties I've just left. Usually after I open dialogue with my partymates we either determine we can't manage with current makeup or figure out what we need to adjust and continue on. I just have this really bad character flaw that when I make a commitment to something, which I consider joining DF to be, I hold to that commitment. Horrible, I know.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Usually the ones who are rude are the ones who bitch about low DPS without trying to fix anything. I can count on one hand the number of parties I've just left. Usually after I open dialogue with my partymates we either determine we can't manage with current makeup or figure out what we need to adjust and continue on. I just have this really bad character flaw that when I make a commitment to something, which I consider joining DF to be, I hold to that commitment. Horrible, I know.

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Mhmm sure
Me - "DPS is kinda low could you use some AoE pls?"
BRD - "Why? I don't have to and I've don't have them on my Hotbar"
Me - "Coz you'll do more damage when there are muliple mobs"
BRD - "I dont want to, you can do it instead"

Mhmm what terrible attitude I had, you may like enabling this behavior but alot of us certainly don't. Even the suggestion of dps being low is considered havng a "terrible attitude".

I'm really getting sick of the "it's duty finder" excuse. Yes, it's a group of randoms. Yes, most of them may not be geared well or have savage level DPS. That being said, it's not an excuse to place added stress on others because you either don't want to play at an average skill level or have inappropriate gear.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

So to fix this one or more of the following should happen:
Split BRD and MCH gear.
Get rid of accuracy. it makes it too hard to gear with our limited picks.
Balance the sub stats so it matters less.

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The jump between the 1st paragraph (bads in roulette cause stress) and 2nd paragraph (less stat combos + remove acc + more stress talk + tutorial for level jumpers) is what lost me. I get you now.

You are correct that the two prioritize sifferent secondaries. I imagine as it stands, BRD/MCH share gear to keep inventory bloat (slightly) smaller. Splitting them would make my MCH gear more specialized, but I am not sure how much it would help healers suffering through bad players in DF. Gear will only carry someone so far.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Usually the ones who are rude are the ones who bitch about low DPS without trying to fix anything. I can count on one hand the number of parties I've just left. Usually after I open dialogue with my partymates we either determine we can't manage with current makeup or figure out what we need to adjust and continue on. I just have this really bad character flaw that when I make a commitment to something, which I consider joining DF to be, I hold to that commitment. Horrible, I know.

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Treating it like a commitment would then imply that you should strive to finish it no matter what (even removing something that would stop you), rather than leave the moment a bump crosses your path. At least, that's how I view commitment. It's also a teamwork environment, where you should expect everyone to commit to their roles as well. They don't need to be perfect (basic rotation should do), but they shouldn't be using weapons 10 levels below the content, nor should they be expecting three/seven others to carry them while they watch Netflix.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

The jump between the 1st paragraph (bads in roulette cause stress) and 2nd paragraph (less stat combos + remove acc + more stress talk + tutorial for level jumpers) is what lost me. I get you now.

You are correct that the two prioritize sifferent secondaries. I imagine as it stands, BRD/MCH share gear to keep inventory bloat (slightly) smaller. Splitting them would make my MCH gear more specialized, but I am not sure how much it would help healers suffering through bad players in DF. Gear will only carry someone so far.

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Whilst I agreee it's still irritating to have two classes sharing gear that rely on different stats.

It's like having DRG and MNK sharing gear... :'(

You don't really have any business getting into the minute details of another character's secondary stats in anything outside of EX and Savage. A bard needs Weapon Dmg, then Dex, then Crit, then the rest is min/maxing for limited gains. SE has already done enough damage to reduce the impact of secondary stats. Yes, they should make some sense, but the gear will make "some sense" as long as it is bard (or MCH) gear. DET and Skillspeed aren't that much different as in weight that you should get heartburn over it. I don't even think Accuracy is a factor in roulettes.

The skillspeed difference you are worrying about is not going to effect the dps more than a couple percent. Of all the things that can contribute to poor dps, this is in the weeds. There is no need for SE to devote any time on it.

Someone who doesn't like the fact that you will get bad players in DF should open a school for all the bad players to attend so they can be better. The bad players will not be able to use DF unless they have at least a B average, and get all required credits to graduate.

So when you roll a DF, you can make sure they aren't bad.

Which one of you guys gonna do it?

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Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

Someone who doesn't like the fact that you will get bad players in DF should open a school for all the bad players to attend so they can be better. The bad players will not be able to use DF unless they have at least a B average, and get all required credits to graduate.

So when you roll a DF, you can make sure they aren't bad.

Which one of you guys gonna do it?

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Originally Posted by Nestama

If I see a BLM using only Tier III spells (spamming Fire III and then spamming Blizzard III), I'll inform them that that rotation is not good and that casting Fire is better (or using Enochian and Fire IV in a F4x2, Fire, F4x2, B3, B4 rotation if in L60 content). If they ignore my advice, I'll bring it up again. If they ignore it again, or get rude about it, then I (try to) kick them.

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You mean like this? or is asking someone to try and do better bad?

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Originally Posted by Nestama

You don't really have to leave or demand to be kicked. You just ask if the DPS is doing alright and if they need help with their rotation. If they say no and continue to be a numpty, then you can boot them for their difference in playstyle (or lack thereof). Same applies to tanks and healers.

If the kick fails, I'd leave. I might be playing a game to waste time, but I don't like wasting time while wasting time (I leave and then play other games or see if the weather is cool enough for my dog to walk on the pavement).

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Like we have time in dungeons to teach them the should either Google it or ask fc or friends it not the time to hold their hand.

If you weight the weapon too heavily, someone will grab something top end end (270) and throw on a bunch of spiritbonding gear, still barely meet the ilevel requirements and become a drain on the healers when they need multiple raises throughout the fight due to low health. Without the additional stats from gear, damage won't even be acceptable, much less optimal. There will always be people who find the simplest, easiest method (for them) to get what they want, and it usually involves being carried.

Or you can form a party of 4 with your friends so you won't run into that kind of issue. Some people are either new to the game or the job itself. Can't blame em for learning em.

If they're trying to learn, that's fine. If they're intentionally making others carry them, then it's not fine.

The easiest way to not get stressed out in Duty Finder is simply to not stress out about Duty Finder. Water off a duck's back, man. Life's too short to sweat the small stuff.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

The jump between the 1st paragraph (bads in roulette cause stress) and 2nd paragraph (less stat combos + remove acc + more stress talk + tutorial for level jumpers) is what lost me. I get you now.

You are correct that the two prioritize sifferent secondaries. I imagine as it stands, BRD/MCH share gear to keep inventory bloat (slightly) smaller. Splitting them would make my MCH gear more specialized, but I am not sure how much it would help healers suffering through bad players in DF. Gear will only carry someone so far.

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I get that, I really do, but when you have a brd gearing crit/det, it is not helping matters.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

The easiest way to not get stressed out in Duty Finder is simply to not stress out about Duty Finder. Water off a duck's back, man. Life's too short to sweat the small stuff.

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You try doing an expert while having 1800 hps or wipe, on AST!!!! , AST is not fit for that kind of thing at all, she had to singe heal the tank > aoe heal > single heal > aoe heal, and keep doing this while hoping the tank did not die. The pld took over 400k of damage in 8 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

I get that, I really do, but when you have a brd gearing crit/det, it is not helping matters.



You try doing an expert while having 1800 hps or wipe, on AST!!!! , AST is not fit for that kind of thing at all, she had to singe heal the tank > aoe heal > single heal > aoe heal, and keep doing this while hoping the tank did not die. The pld took over 400k of damage in 8 minutes.

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Without any buffs of any kind, including a sect, my 244 AST with a 210 weapon heals for 4,290 with Benefic, which has a 2.33 second recast time. That's 1,841 hps. That means that over an 8 minute period it will do about 884k healing with just Benefic, even if I have no buffs of any kind. In that context, 400k damage over 8 minutes does not seem impressive or even the least bit worrisome. I imagine it's still more than many tanks take, so you might not get to DPS as much or perhaps at all, but this doesn't seem like some sort of nerve wracking experience.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Without any buffs of any kind, including a sect, my 244 AST with a 210 weapon heals for 4,290 with Benefic, which has a 2.33 second recast time. That's 1,841 hps. That means that over an 8 minute period it will do about 884k healing with just Benefic, even if I have no buffs of any kind. In that context, 400k damage over 8 minutes does not seem impressive or even the least bit worrisome. I imagine it's still more than many tanks take, so you might not get to DPS as much or perhaps at all, but this doesn't seem like some sort of nerve wracking experience.

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That is not how it works.. but ok i guess?

You are assuming you just stand there in one place, healing one person at a constant rate, nothing in the game works like this. there is spike damage and everyone was taking such hits because things did not die fast enough and the PLD was just using hallowed ground randomly. it was 931k total btw

You are right on one thing though, this party made my friend unable to do any kind of dps.

You go in sohm al hard with max pull sizes and slow dps in that healing gear and see how well that works out for you. A healer shouldn't be on a constant healing rotation unable to do anything else in an expert dungeon, consistently worrying about "will this heal go off in time so we do not wipe"

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

That is not how it works.. but ok i guess?

You are assuming you just stand there in one place, healing one person at a constant rate, nothing in the game works like this. there is spike damage and everyone was taking such hits because things did not die fast enough and the PLD was just using hallowed ground randomly. it was 931k total btw

You are right on one thing though, this party made my friend unable to do any kind of dps.

You go in sohm al hard with max pull sizes and slow dps in that healing gear and see how well that works out for you. A healer shouldn't be on a constant healing rotation unable to do anything else in an expert dungeon, consistently worrying about "will this heal go off in time so we do not wipe"

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Yes, I assumed constant healing, but I also assumed zero buffs, even self buffs, and no use of any abilities other than the smallest single target heal, no Sect, no Benefic II, no Bole, no Aspected Benefic, no nothing. Even in doing so, the healing required was less than half of the potential output. You now say that the damage you stated originally is less than half of the actual damage. I don't know if this is just an updated figure for the tank or the total damage to the entire group, given that it's such a drastically different number. In either case, I am quite confident that it is a healing requirement that can be met, even if it might get a bit sketchy. Besides, the healer can basically just stand still the entire run in both Sohm Al and Baelsar's Wall. There is a minimal amount of movement required for either instance, except for maybe the Griffin or if you're really unlucky with targeted abilities, so I don't think it's an unfair assumption. I specifically left out everything that could be done to increase your healing to compensate for that though.

Look, I am probably mediocre at best. Even still, I have simply never found a dungeon group I couldn't work with or one that really required me to stress out about stuff. So I find it a little hard to believe that there's some huge problem out there that requires a systemic resolution of the type you're proposing, when in reality I think it would be much simpler if you took a few deep breaths, perhaps lowered your expectations a bit, and just work with what you got. If it's really that bad, you can always leave the group and try again later.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Yes, I assumed constant healing, but I also assumed zero buffs, even self buffs, and no use of any abilities other than the smallest single target heal, no Sect, no Benefic II, no Bole, no Aspected Benefic, no nothing. Even in doing so, the healing required was less than half of the potential output. You now say that the damage you stated originally is less than half of the actual damage. I don't know if this is just an updated figure for the tank or the total damage to the entire group, given that it's such a drasticallydifferent number. In either case, I am quite confident that it is a healing requirement that can be met, even if it might get a bit sketchy. Besides, the healer can basically just stand still the entire run in both Sohm Al and Baelsar's Wall. There is a minimal amount of movement required for either instance, except for maybe the Griffin or if you're really unlucky with targeted abilities, so I don't think it's an unfair assumption. I specifically left out everything that could be done to increase your healing to compensate for that though.

Look, I am probably mediocre at best. Even still, I have simply never found a dungeon group I couldn't work with or one that really required me to stress out about stuff. So I find it a little hard to believe that there's some huge problem out there that requires a systemic resolution of the type you're proposing, when in reality I think it would be much simpler if you took a few deep breaths, perhaps lowered your expectations a bit, and just work with what you got. If it's really that bad, you can always leave the group and try again later.

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You are issuing the point! it has nothing to do with YOUR ability to heal, but other people! This thread is not a thread in saying AST lacks healing power. It is a thread about DPS and others bypassing the level requirement to enter by using gear they should not be using and lacking knowledge to do rotations. If stuff is kept alive on mega pulls for too long you have to heal too much. Also I thought it was clear what i was talking about, the PLD alone took 400k damage, the total healing was 914k because there is 3 other people to heal besides the PLD? if the PLD is raining consonant damage, while the other 2 are getting hurt here and there, you do not have enough time to single heal people and you have to use the weaker AOE. This becomes stressful because then your praying the cure goes off before you wipe.

I really do not know what your objective is, but the point is people bring gear to DFs that they should not be using, while lacking skill because it is too easy to get though the game, stressing healers and others to carry. So this is what the thread is about, not how easy it is healing people in expert that know what they are doing in 270 gear letting EoS do all the work.

You can try question all you wait on how my friend shouldn't be stressed but it happened, and it took her 1 hour to calm down after. rotation tutorials are NEEDED

"[Dev suggestion] More strict stat checks when entering duty finer/tutorial tests
Notice I said stat checks, not gear level. It is too easy to bypass the gear level requirement." (from the opening post)

You started completely off base with your dev suggestion. At least you are starting to get to the real problems (manipulated iLvl avg, rotations, DPS taking avoidable damage). BRD using Det is not one of those problems (not even close).
Sort of sounds like mismanaged pulls to be honest (tank not adapting to the dmg output of the party). Healer is usually the one person the tank asks about bigger pulls. Next time maybe your friend can ask the tank to back off a bit on the "mega pulls" if the healing required is overwhelming her.

Maybe if the Devs introduced an out of combat heavy effect for the tank that was based on healer MP level... (joking, but sort of not).