NIN: Some mudra ninjutsu changes that could not stop thinking.

I love NIN, aesthetically. When I play, I get a bit annoyed. Babysit huton, dots, and dancing edge if I have to. Those aren't that bad, so lets skip it.

What I wanted to talk about is how annoying it is to use ninjutsu with mudras. I'm not talking about the order of ten, chi, and jin. I'm talking about how annoying it is to accidentally fail ninjutsu either by accidentally hit one of them twice or hitting 3 mudras but only 2 registered then end up with wrong ninjutsu or rabbit mocking me. It gets annoying the 50th time you try to use them. They are truly the main reason I can't get into NIN.

You can say thats the unique thing about this job. I agree when I was leveling one, and it was fun using those mudras, but it got lame real fast when I'm lvl60 and geared. This "unique feature" has been nothing but lag and delay between GCD skills for my game play. Other jobs have none of this problem because I simply need to hit one button to execute action. This isn't something you can fix with ping or improving from server side like the previous improvement in the patch.

For more NIN lover and any new people to love NIN more, the current mudras and ninjutsu system have to go. Since battle system rework is coming, I would like to propose some changes and hopefully Yoshi-P can consider implement. There are 2 ways to make the change.

The first way is completely remove mudras and ninjutsu. Remove them and keep mudras ten/chi/jin to display in their correct order as a part of skill animation for the correspond ninjutsu skill. This way, we don't need to worry about server lag, ping, or whatever.

For example: When use Fuma Shuriken, the character will cast either ten or chi or jin then throw the shuriken out. When use Huton, the character will cast jin, chi, ten and then apply huton on.

The second way is make it impossible to fail mudras and remove ninjutsu. I am thinking of a special UI for NIN mudras. It is a bar contain with ten, chi, jin, and an open slot for the correspond ninjutsu skill to appear. In order to make it impossible to fail, each used mudra will be grayed out if no possible combination is available, so mutiple button press won't work. Also, make it so that you can use other gcd/ogcd skills after mudra and before the use of ninjutsu skills to make fail impossible.

For example: When use jin, chi, and ten, I can use spinning edge before casting huton.
This also allow the creation of future 4th mudra combination such as ten/chi/jin/ten or ten/chi/jin/chi, etc for more cool ninjutsu!

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Originally Posted by Miziliti

I love NIN, aesthetically. When I play, I get a bit annoyed. Babysit huton, dots, and dancing edge if I have to. Those aren't that bad, so lets skip it.

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Ummm no.

Mudras are exactly what makes Nin unique. Without it, the Nin is a braindead simple class with little forethought or depth. The only change I'd welcome is making the mudras weavable (i.e. you can interrupt your mudra chain with a GCD) but thats it. Its a skill ceiling requirement being able to hit your mudras with precision and good timing. Think of it as learning to play Invoker from DOTA2.

I just wish that the failed bunny didn't require a button press. Just make a fail auto-fail. It doesn't happen often, but it's pesky that it doesn't just put your Ninjutsu on cool down, you still have to activate the failure.

People often want to spam fuma due to clipping. That's true, clipping sucks and you should spam fuma but you should also note the last gcd you end on before a pause. Is it right before a gcd or right after or even half way? If it's right before and you've been spamming fuma, then it's time to change 2 of those fumas to raiton because you arent getting an extra gcd with fuma anyway.

Ok I've just recently been lving nin through Potd, just hit lv 50 nin today actually. I still need to sit down with the dummy at my FC and learn the mudra combinations fully but with the simple ones I do know (the lv 30 and 35 ones) and had gotten used to I've been quite enjoying doing the combinations, yea on occasion I have failed at them but oh well just means I need some more practice.

From what I've noted with nin if you take away the ninjutsu all you're left with is a thief class. Sorry I had noticed nin does share multiple skills/traits with thf from ff XI or even change it to where you hit one button to do the desired mudra would just add more buttons to your hotbar and would also take the fun out of doing the combos.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

The only change I'd welcome is making the mudras weavable (i.e. you can interrupt your mudra chain with a GCD) but thats it.

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That would actually be quite nice I think. especially for suiton / huton / doton.

might also make skill speed a bit more desirable a swell. where presently it seems to be avoided because of the clipping issues it causes with mudras

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

I just wish that the failed bunny didn't require a button press. Just make a fail auto-fail. It doesn't happen often, but it's pesky that it doesn't just put your Ninjutsu on cool down, you still have to activate the failure.

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This I can get behind... there's occassions where I mess up mudras see the bunny icon and think "god damn it" hit kassatsu to try again only to screw up even more because I didn't activate the failed ninjutsu...

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Originally Posted by Dzian

This I can get behind... there's occassions where I mess up mudras see the bunny icon and think "god damn it" hit kassatsu to try again only to screw up even more because I didn't activate the failed ninjutsu...

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Yeah, even Kassatsu doesn't reset the bunny. It's infuriating lol.

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Originally Posted by AmalonStar

Ok I've just recently been lving nin through Potd, just hit lv 50 nin today actually. I still need to sit down with the dummy at my FC and learn the mudra combinations fully but with the simple ones I do know (the lv 30 and 35 ones) and had gotten used to I've been quite enjoying doing the combinations, yea on occasion I have failed at them but oh well just means I need some more practice.

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I know this doesn't contribute much to the topic, but I found that mapping mudras to the NUM pad on keyboard has helped me a lot with this. Properly planned, it can be set up so that any sequence (forward, backward, up, down) can execute a ninjutsu, so it's easier to remember which set is the skill I want, rather than trying to remember mudra orders.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

I know this doesn't contribute much to the topic, but I found that mapping mudras to the NUM pad on keyboard has helped me a lot with this. Properly planned, it can be set up so that any sequence (forward, backward, up, down) can execute a ninjutsu, so it's easier to remember which set is the skill I want, rather than trying to remember mudra orders.

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I'm on a controller, and I set up my Mudra's so that I can kinda use old school Street Fighter Ryu/Ken moves. So for example a down (Mudra seal 1), and forward (Mudra seal 2) would be Raiton (Haduken) and so on. It's helped me remember my combos xD

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Originally Posted by AmalonStar

I still need to sit down with the dummy at my FC and learn the mudra combinations

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The key to doing them in the right order without panicking into a double-press or other bunny situation is to arrange the buttons right. The game tricks you by giving you the middle mudra last. Put it between the 30 and 35 mudras. If playing on straight hotbars, you can also make things a lot easier by putting a Ninjutsu button at both ends of the mudras.

http://i.imgur.com/JbIT4U6.png

For Raiton and Katon, the top sequence is recommended for Lv45+. The bottom sequence is for pre-45.
Suiton isn't as complicated as it looks. Just figure out which of the four combinations works best for you.

I also love NIN as I main it, but one thing I would really like is to be able to perform actions between mudras without, making a bunny appear on my head.

I hope in 4.0 we get to learn "the lost mudra" in Doma with Yugiri, and just be plain awesome! :D

SE needs to update their servers and have less lag/ speed up processing speeds. All there is to it. It effects everything in the game, not just mudras

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Originally Posted by Miziliti

The second way is make it impossible to fail mudras and remove ninjutsu. I am thinking of a special UI for NIN mudras. It is a bar contain with ten, chi, jin, and an open slot for the correspond ninjutsu skill to appear. In order to make it impossible to fail, each used mudra will be grayed out if no possible combination is available, so mutiple button press won't work. Also, make it so that you can use other gcd/ogcd skills after mudra and before the use of ninjutsu skills to make fail impossible.

For example: When use jin, chi, and ten, I can use spinning edge before casting huton.
This also allow the creation of future 4th mudra combination such as ten/chi/jin/ten or ten/chi/jin/chi, etc for more cool ninjutsu!

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I'd go for that.

A unique UI might look interesting, but the central point would be to simply allow for mudra weaving between multiple weaponskills, and to allow only the mudras that haven't yet been cast during that Ninjutsu. The wasted Ninjutsu uptime should still be punishing enough. Sure, sold.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

The key to doing them in the right order without panicking into a double-press or other bunny situation is to arrange the buttons right. The game tricks you by giving you the middle mudra last. Put it between the 30 and 35 mudras. If playing on straight hotbars, you can also make things a lot easier by putting a Ninjutsu button at both ends of the mudras.

http://i.imgur.com/JbIT4U6.png

For Raiton and Katon, the top sequence is recommended for Lv45+. The bottom sequence is for pre-45.
Suiton isn't as complicated as it looks. Just figure out which of the four combinations works best for you.

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Sorry if this has been off topic from the OP. Thank you for the info, I was actually going to look up stuff for nin on my graveyard tonight as to what I should be using for mudras. So for katon and raiton I want to be using the higher lv combination after lv 45?

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Originally Posted by AmalonStar

Sorry if this has been off topic from the OP.

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It's not entirely off topic. Whenever a discussion of the mudra subsystem comes up, some of the problems people bring up can be mitigated with proper action bar organization.

When I say to use a particular sequence from 45 onward, it's because the middle button (Jin) doesn't exist prior to 45, so you're forced to use the other sequence that doesn't include it. Once you get Jin, it's easier to use the sequence that includes Jin because it makes the jutsu a scale rather than an arpeggio.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

It's not entirely off topic. Whenever a discussion of the mudra subsystem comes up, some of the problems people bring up can be mitigated with proper action bar organization.

When I say to use a particular sequence from 45 onward, it's because the middle button (Jin) doesn't exist prior to 45, so you're forced to use the other sequence that doesn't include it. Once you get Jin, it's easier to use the sequence that includes Jin because it makes the jutsu a scale rather than an arpeggio.

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Oh ok cool, but yea I've already arranged ten chi and Jin on my cross hotbar and have been working on a button pattern for them all. My button set up is similar to the one you posted and I already have patterns memorized for a few of them now. Still arranging my hotbar to include other skills to maximize my dps.

you got annoy with mudra? try drg rng skill between flank or rear while at the same time maintaining dot debuff and botd timer

at least mudra is consistent

I'll certainly say that it's frustrating beyond belief to end up with a messed up mudra because my mouse is broken and believes I was double clicking when I'm not actually double clicking.

But maybe that's just me being bad.

I'm gonna get kinda out of topic here but:-

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

I know this doesn't contribute much to the topic, but I found that mapping mudras to the NUM pad on keyboard has helped me a lot with this. Properly planned, it can be set up so that any sequence (forward, backward, up, down) can execute a ninjutsu, so it's easier to remember which set is the skill I want, rather than trying to remember mudra orders.

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You don't have to remember the order. You only have to remember the last mudra for each ninjutsu.
For example:
In a one-mudra activation, it'll always be Fuuma Shuriken.
In a two-mudra ninjutsu, it'll always be:
Katon - if the 2nd mudra used was Ten
Raiton - if the 2nd mudra used was Chi
Hyoton - if the 2nd mudra used was Jin
(Of course, the first and second mudra used have to be different mudras, but the 2nd mudra will determine what ninjutsu will be casted)

In a three-mudra ninjutsu,
Huton - if the 3rd mudra used was Ten
Doton - if the 3rd mudra used was Chi
Suiton - if the 3rd mudra used was Jin
(Again, of course, the first, second and third mudras used have to be different mudras, but the 3rd mudra will determine what ninjutsu will be casted)


So, Using Ten last will result in Fuuma Shuriken (1-button), Katon (2-button), or Huton (3-button)
Using Chi last will result in Fuuma Shuriken (1-button), Raiton (2-button), or Doton (3-button)
Using Jin last will result in Fuuma Shuriken (1-button), Hyoton (2-button), or Suiton (3-button)

Edit:
http://imageshack.com/a/img921/4166/WEvGWz.png
I made my vertical hotbars this way last time back in early 2016 to help me remember the mudras. That's when I noticed the pattern.

I hope they take some cues from Naruto with ninjutsu, since that is where they were told to pull some original ideas for the job. I like the interweaving of global cooldowns with the mudras idea. I bring up Naruto because by the end of the story top tier shinobi could mix their hand signs with others or take a few other actions (mostly attacks) inbetween weaving signs. We should be able to do the same, and it would definitely help how we can utilize the job.

I agree with being able to use skills mid mudra, and with kassatsu being able to reset the ninjutsu skills without bunny activation... but playing on a controller for me helps alot... like someone else stated I have mine set up kinda like street fighter... I let muscle memory do all the work.

I agree with the suggestion of being able to weave other abilities between Mudras, as well as letting Kassatsu reset it without having to press the Ninjitsu button first.

The increased speed/lower latency of activation they added a while back has helped, those two ideas seem like really good next QoL steps.

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Originally Posted by Berethos

I agree with the suggestion of being able to weave other abilities between Mudras, as well as letting Kassatsu reset it without having to press the Ninjitsu button first.

The increased speed/lower latency of activation they added a while back has helped, those two ideas seem like really good next QoL steps.

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Iirc, the only change they made was to check for the completion of prior steps client side. For already lowish ping players, the changes haven't increased its speed; it's just made it less susceptible to latency spikes, packet loss, etc., because the Ninjutsu is generated from the chosen mudra on our side now, and the server only checks and transfers the final, combined Ninjutsu.

The same could be very helpful for any class who normally multi-weaves, helping to reduce the gap in out-put actions per minute between two players with identical rotations but different latencies on a multi-weave class. I think SE is simply scared that it may invite additional exploits or that the first of two paired oGCDs, for instance, may gain an unintended half second of duration.

The point was that it was an improvement (for players with higher ping it did increase the speed of activation, not sure why you're trying to "correct" me because I wasn't specific on which group of players it helped), and these other suggestions will also be an improvement.

If getting mudra order correct or missing steps is causing issues macro them in order to one button... yes this will slow down your dps but should make the ninjutsu work.... by no means ideal but an option if you're losing dps anyway cuz you're failing ninjutsu activation...

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Originally Posted by Berethos

The point was that it was an improvement (for players with higher ping it did increase the speed of activation, not sure why you're trying to "correct" me because I wasn't specific on which group of players it helped), and these other suggestions will also be an improvement.

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My apologies; I did not mean it as a "correction", but rather only that it has its limitations (e.g. it would only make a difference in only in multi-weaving and only when those multi-weaved skills would not be affected by small variance in output durations) that may make it inapplicable to anything more than Mudras depending on how SE considers balance and fears exploitation.

I just want some way to tell which Fuma Shuriken I have up. If I just pressed 2 mudra buttons and only one went through, I don't know if it was the first one and I can try again, or the second one and I need to salvage things. Dunno if that means individual mudra buffs or just different icons for the three Shurikens.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I just want some way to tell which Fuma Shuriken I have up. If I just pressed 2 mudra buttons and only one went through, I don't know if it was the first one and I can try again, or the second one and I need to salvage things. Dunno if that means individual mudra buffs or just different icons for the three Shurikens.

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Well, it's as simple as darkening the icon of the mudra you already activated. Then you'd know which went through.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Well, it's as simple as darkening the icon of the mudra you already activated. Then you'd know which went through.

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Oh, that would be nice and simple.

So YOU (yes YOU, not anyone else), messed up YOUR Mudara activation, and now you come here to cry about it, Git Gud or Git Rekt!
I will not sit idle, and watch you lot tarnish the one and only mechanic that makes Ninja a Ninja.
People in this day and age just want everything given to them on a silver plate, if they could they would pick a class with only one button, and later on even cry about it.
Take the effort, with it you loose the fun, and sense of accomplishment (is this a word?)!

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

Mudras are what make the Ninja job unique. Mudras are also what separates the bad ninjas from the good ones. :)

One thing I would suggest is to practice your mudras and rotations on a dummy. Carefully pay attention to timing and weaving ninjutsu in your rotation.

Just like how other classes can mess up their cooldowns and rotation. Ninjas can mess up mudras. Just practice and have fun!

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Originally Posted by TianJidu

So YOU (yes YOU, not anyone else), messed up YOUR Mudara activation, and now you come here to cry about it, Git Gud or Git Rekt!
I will not sit idle, and watch you lot tarnish the one and only mechanic that makes Ninja a Ninja.
People in this day and age just want everything given to them on a silver plate, if they could they would pick a class with only one button, and later on even cry about it.
Take the effort, with it you loose the fun, and sense of accomplishment (is this a word?)!

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

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(1) Hit the appropriate number of mudras (1-3 total), ending in the associated Mudra in order to activate the given Ninjutsu skill.
(2) The ending Mudra must differ from the previous Mudra or you will be locked out of Ninjutsu for 5 seconds until completing the Ninjutsu for 0 effect (apart from summoning a rabbit).
(3) The first Mudra must differ from the second Mudra or you will be locked out of Ninjutsu for 5 seconds until completing the Ninjutsu for 0 effect (apart from summoning a rabbit).
(4) No other action may be completed between your first Mudra and the casting of the Ninjutsu or you will be locked out of Ninjutsu for 5 seconds until completing the Ninjutsu for 0 effect (apart from summoning a rabbit).


Are all 4 of these essential to making an enjoyable, unique, skill-relevant mechanic for Ninja?

Would it harm gameplay significantly if 4 were removed by making it impossible to hit a Mudra that has already been hit?
Would gameplay be dumbed down if Ninjas had to weigh weaponskill output over time vs. Ninjutsu output over time when given the chance to delay the oGCD's release as not to delay the GCD's?

Read your post earnestly but then i got to this and lost my will to answer any of your questions.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Would it harm gameplay significantly if 4 were removed by making it impossible to hit a Mudra that has already been hit?

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Originally Posted by TianJidu

People in this day and age just want everything given to them on a silver plate, if they could they would pick a class with only one button, and later on even cry about it.

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