Should healers now be allowed to play how they choose to play?

This topic is not new, but in light of the proposed changes, like two more dps classes which all the dps has to choose from, could we now leave healers alone to play as healers, and those who want to dps, dps? Thinking that many people would like to heal as a chosen playstyle. The feedback I have received before is that its not playing to 'optimal efficiency', but this is not a workplace it is where people come to enjoy themselves, not be coerced into doing a role that they didnt choose- dps as healer. Most dps did not choose to heal, and have a monopoly of different playstyles to choose from, on the other hand healers are being made to dps, to sort of make up for dps defiency, Then I see a question asking for harder content, just stop healer dps and the content will be harder to clear. Healers that want to dps go dps, leave others to heal or tank if thats what they enjoy.

You're allowed to stick to your own playstyle - if that's healing ONLY, well, go right ahead.
However keep in mind that it's NOT against the TOS to kick people for different playstyles though, so if you're ever in a team that feels you should indeed be contributing to DPS, they can kick you and GMs are unlikely to do anything about it (unless of course they harass you, but then they'd get in trouble for another matter entirely).
Optimizing your job/role and utilizing all skills available to you is, to some players, something that is considered fun (personally I see healer DPS as utility - some DPS have team wide buffs, SMN rez, BRD/MCH regenerate TP/MP, so on so on, and healers can dish out some DPS to minimize time spent in an instance), and something that makes your contribution to the team's performance that much higher - now, I'm not going to argue with you why you should or shouldn't DPS; strictly speaking as a healer your core purpose is to keep the team alive long enough to see the instance cleared.

Wether or not the "healers need to DPS" mindset will remain or not will depend mainly on
1) Healing reqs for SB fights
2) Wether CS is or not one of the skills SE decides to remove

Bottom line, if nothing changes and instances (and their difficulty level) and skills remain unchanged, you CAN only heal, if that's what you want to do - keep in mind that people are not obligated to like that, and they're well within their right to kick you.

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

You're allowed to stick to your own playstyle - if that's healing ONLY, well, go right ahead.
However keep in mind that it's NOT against the TOS to kick people for different playstyles though,

Wether or not the "healers need to DPS" mindset will remain or not will depend mainly on
1) Healing reqs for SB fights
2) Wether CS is or not one of the skills SE decides to remove

Bottom line, if nothing changes and instances (and their difficulty level) and skills remain unchanged, you CAN only heal, if that's what you want to do - keep in mind that people are not obligated to like that, and they're well within their right to kick you.

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This is true that is why it can be viewed as coercion to dps. Btw not saying I dont dps as healer only that some may prefer it not to be made compulsary. I dps but prefer to heal, maybe other people do as well

It's the same with all other classes...

BRDs not using WM can claim they don't want to play bowmage, tanks can claim they only need to hold aggro and thus completely ignore they DPS stances, SMNs can have a full MP bar and choose to let a whole alliance burn to the ground because they're busy doing whatever stuff they're doing.

Now, mind, all those examples are doing their core roles - tank is holding aggro, BRD is still killing stuff (albeit possibly slower than you'd hope), and the SMN might be pulling highest DPS in the whole alliance.

Are they fully optimizing their jobs? No, they are not.
Are they free to play "their way"? Sure they are.

However you can still not agree with their playstyles, and if the other team members agree, a vote kick ensues and goes through, it IS valid. Some people will be okay with you healing only, shrug and move on, others will not.
However you play you'll be criticized at some point - for one team that gives you cheek for not broiling all the things there'll be another scrunching up their brows at a healer that isn't keeping everyone topped up. Just do what you want, have fun ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Play how you want. If the party doesn't want a lazy healer then the party can kick you. Same goes for DPS and Tanks. I'm now firmly in the 'Kick' camp for people who can't be bothered and bring the "my sub" and "this aint a job" attitude.

No one is forcing a healer to DPS at gunpoint. Don't want to do what the others on the party ask of you? Keep doing what you're doing and see if you get kicked or not. Or you could just leave.

was at a low level Dungeon today.
had an overgeared Tank (270 Items)
had to cast 5 Heals until the Endoboss, so... 15 seconds of Healing Work in the 20 Minutes Progress. (it was the long one)

so ... if you want to be completley useless for 19 minutes ... you are free to do so.
be free to be kicked.

nobody is gonna kick a healer who is only healing all the Time because:
-he is new and don't know all the mechanics
-there is so much to heal

but if the passive out-of-combat-LP-Reg is enough to ensure, nobody dies, then, for god's sake, put your cleric stance on.
This stance is not given to you because it has a nice Icon in the Toolbar.

I really don't care if my cohealer dpses. If they dps, that's great. I'll help burden the healing as your cohealer, always ready to drop cs and ogcd. If you're ONLY healing, in content that you are familiar with, I'm gonna give you a fairy and ogcd mitigation and that's all you're getting. You need to be able to almost solo heal if you aren't gonna even try to dps.

Play how you like, but please don't expect your party members to put more effort into excellence or have a higher APM than you do.

I personally hate switching to Cleric Stance, mostly because someone always gets blasted in the face right after I turn it on. But without it I'd just be standing around picking my nose half the time. It gives you something to do when there's no damage going out.

I wouldn't mind if future encounters had less opportunities to use it though. As useful as healer DPS might be, it's mind-numbingly boring in comparison to the actual DPS rotations. I'd rather run around like a madman and play ping-pong with health bars.

I'm fine with healers only healing, so i can ignore mechanics and give them something to do of their iddle time, while i can focus on dps (that's usualy what i do, never heard any wrong from them, and they must keep it that way since it's what they'r "calling for")

Really this wasnt meant to be about laziness, or people 'pulling their weight', It was a question about whether healers can be healers as a chosen, preferred playstyle, which many players may prefer or enjoy more. We have already had the debates about those issues above, about everyone needing to be busy doing something 100% of the time or seen to be 'working'. No one is coercing any dps to choose healing as a playstyle, so I feel this is possibly a little one sided. If a healer that has chosen that playstyle, has gaps in between healing and cannot tolerate it, they could play dps instead, Ast has their cards to buff in 'gaps'. In reply to the guy that tells people to leave if they dont like things how they are, this is not really a solution for people that would like to play in their preferred way.

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

It's the same with all other classes...

BRDs not using WM can claim they don't want to play bowmage, tanks can claim they only need to hold aggro and thus completely ignore they DPS stances, SMNs can have a full MP bar and choose to let a whole alliance burn to the ground because they're busy doing whatever stuff they'r



However you play you'll be criticized at some point - for one team that gives you cheek for not broiling all the things there'll be another scrunching up their brows at a healer that isn't keeping everyone topped up. Just do what you want, have fun ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Again you are correct but a healer has a completely different role than a dps or a tank, give me those buffs, I will gladly use them to support my team. My role is healer, not a dps support.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

In reply to the guy that tells people to leave if they dont like things how they are, this is not really a solution for people that would like to play in their preferred way.

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Yes it is. If you're so upset that people want you to put in more effort, in a group game, then leaving and finding a party who are willing to waste their time on you is a perfect solution. There will always be parties who will put up with it, so it's not like they have no other options.

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Originally Posted by Dsync

Yes it is. If you're so upset that people want you to put in more effort, in a group game, then leaving and finding a party who are willing to waste their time on you is a perfect solution. There will always be parties who will put up with it, so it's not like they have no other options.

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Again this is not about more effort it is about being able to choose what playstyle you prefer, tanking, dps, or healing. Just those three roles. Not how much or how little you do in them.

It's in your very first post that healers should be allowed to ignore most of their toolkit because "preferred playstyle" (read: "my sub" using different words). That directly relates to laziness. I believe you know this and are simply trolling. I'm out. Wasted enough time here.

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Originally Posted by Dsync

It's in your very first post that healers should be allowed to ignore most of their toolkit because "preferred playstyle" (read: "my sub" using different words). That directly relates to laziness. I believe you know this and are simply trolling. I'm out. Wasted enough time here.

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Not really, I was hoping to have an open minded discussion about the subject. Is it so wrong to enjoy healing more than dps? Well if so why do people prefer dps to healing? People may prefer a different playstyle to dpsing. just wondering if it could be possible, to allow a healer to use their healing abilities a little more often because thats their most potent toolkit and the most enjoyable to play with.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Not really, I was hoping to have an open minded discussion about the subject

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Well, if you wanted that you could view the past umph-topics related to this one/yours. You'll notice that there's a good number of players who don't mind either way and a group who advocates healing only and another group who advocates maximum efficiency. The "balance" in this matter is somewhat even. Sadly, our opinion as healers alone only holds a small share of the votes in a group. As much as you are free to decide on what your style is, others are as well. And, sadly, the gamemasters in the game tolerate expelling players from their group (in duty) if the style of the player in question is not to their liking. Likewise, you could do the very same if you wish. Not that I believe it'll be successful considering the mentality a part of the community has displayed so far. Repeat: A part of the community. I'd like to empathize on this.

Rather than having another conversation where two small groups headbutt with each other while a large group just enjoys the drama, advocate for tolerance from other roles instead. I believe this'll be more effective in the long run. If you're not comfortable contributing damage, simply tell the group. Tell the forum. Tell the server. Tell -anyone- really. Yes, you'll get friction with those who would tell you to "get good". But likewise you'll probably run into tolerant people who will understand as well. And most probably don't even care. At worst you won't earn some commendation. At best you don't have to get cranky by sticking with salty players who are constantly nagging and watching your every step. In a nutshell: Learn not to give a damn about who don't give a damn about you.

And just so it's out there: Yes, I do try to maximize my potential and do contribute damage whenever possible

If kicking healers for no DPS is allowed, because they're not playing the way you want them to, isn't it also just as valid for kicking players for expecting it, because that's its own differing play style?

Healers are designed to heal, not DPS. If parties want more DPS then talk to DPS players about it. Because if I am joining as a healer, I heal and that's it.

It's not being "lazy" as some ignorant people call it, it's playing the role the chose to play, period.

I liken loosely this argument to how I view the USA's rights around free speech. For example, You're free to say whatever you want but there are consequences to your words. Like others have said in this thread, you're free to play how you like. But in group content if the overarching view is that you're not contributing enough by just healing, then there should be no surprise about being vote kicked. The same could be said about all the examples Spiroglyph offered (SMN, tanks, BRD, I would even throw those RPing "Ice mage" BLMs in there).

Well, with Stormblood people will think thrice before kicking a healer or tank.

Yes you are right Lyrica, thanks for your response Maybe someone, somewhere will care if people enjoy the game experience or not, in the way it was designed to be enjoyed. That it was intended for people to have different roles to choose to play. I am sure. You see the posts here that completey insist that you do not really have a choice on whether you dps or not. Your only choice on how to play the game is dps, dps or leave. Well yes ive asked if this is fair and not wanting to head butt I will try not to do that just hope that some people would notice. That it is actually possible to enjoy the game if some do just heal. Hoping that SE will give healers their choice back

no ones telling me how to play. i play the way i choose to play

Im gonna laugh if you get the same "fix" that tanks got because of posts like this. Lets just have healing potency the average of your mind stat and piety together. Change cleric stance to swap healing potency with attack magic potency. Besides healings too easy now after you complain that healing tanks was too hard cause they actually wanted to dps. I just dont get it, you should embrace the little bit of flexibility you have before that gets taken away.

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Originally Posted by bloodSp3c

no ones telling me how to play. i play the way i choose to play

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As long as the "way you choose to play" as a healer involves...well...healing, then I'm right there with you.

Tanks are supposed to keep aggro, that's their job. DPS are supposed to deal damage and healers are supposed to heal. As long as people fulfill the primary purpose of their role, then IMO anytime they are kicked for not doing more is a reportable offense...

haha. i literally lol'd
but yes it involves healing :cool:

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Originally Posted by Amnesia

As long as the "way you choose to play" as a healer involves...well...healing, then I'm right there with you.

Tanks are supposed to keep aggro, that's their job. DPS are supposed to deal damage and healers are supposed to heal. As long as people fulfill the primary purpose of their role, then IMO anytime they are kicked for not doing more is a reportable offense...

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Originally Posted by bloodSp3c

no ones telling me how to play. i play the way i choose to play

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Yes would be nice but I would be kicked or excluded, Im a scholar, general consensus is that Im there to dps, only heal when necessary. Otherwise Id never be allowed in the majority of groups, Im raiding with Ast, or wmg they are the only classes that are ok to main heal with (according to the majority)

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Yes would be nice but I would be kicked or excluded, Im a scholar, general consensus is that Im there to dps, only heal when necessary. Otherwise Id never be allowed in the majority of groups, Im raiding with Ast, or wmg they are the only classes that are ok to main heal with (according to the majority)

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The problem with Scholar is that their toolkit from level 1 to 50 is purely DPS-based (excluding job actions). With 5.0 and their plans of getting rid of classes this will probably change but for 4.0 I think it will stay the same.

I don't think anyone should be kicked for just healing as long as you clear the dungeon. I don't know why you wouldn't want to. I think stance dancing is fun Until you mess up and wipe lol. It's a DPS tool given to you, might as well use it. Some of the lower level dungeons I just heal from cleric stance cause the tank takes so little damage.

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

snip- However you can still not agree with their playstyles, and if the other team members agree, a vote kick ensues and goes through, it IS valid. Some people will be okay with you healing only, shrug and move on, others will not.
However you play you'll be criticized at some point - for one team that gives you cheek for not broiling all the things there'll be another scrunching up their brows at a healer that isn't keeping everyone topped up. Just do what you want, have fun ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Was gonna put my own view, but you've said it better than I could haha.

to OP: personally, I'm in the "shrug and move on" category (and do you have any idea how many people are like "how f*cking dare you have a different opinion from me??" because of it? XD). So long as we're all alive, I've never really concerned myself with my party members' play styles. If they suck? Sweet, more coms for me, plus it gives me the opportunity to test myself. Buuuut, probably 80% of the community is in the "DPS or gtfo" category lol. I kinda miss things in the early dungeons they put in where you can't cheese mechanics with DPS lol (the slimes in copperbell mines comes to mind. It's boring as hell now because we've all done it a million times, but the first 2 or 3 times was interesting).

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Originally Posted by Juicinators

I don't think anyone should be kicked for just healing as long as you clear the dungeon.

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Leveling dungeons are different since people are still learning their job, but in level 60 dungeons it's faster to replace a healer who only heals with a 3rd dps. I don't know why this is a hard concept to grasp but this is a group based game. You can play poorly if you want, but be ready for the consequences if you're in a group that doesn't want to play poorly.

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Originally Posted by Juicinators

I don't think anyone should be kicked for just healing as long as you clear the dungeon. I don't know why you wouldn't want to. I think stance dancing is fun Until you mess up and wipe lol. It's a DPS tool given to you, might as well use it. Some of the lower level dungeons I just heal from cleric stance cause the tank takes so little damage.

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I dont know if you or anyone else has noticed that on these new world wide dfs - great idea. That some people tend to leave if they dont see the healers dpsing, Low level dungeons are quite a different matter, you definitely got the space in them instances. I ve said in other posts that expectations of all healers to be able to pull it off is too high. It may be too hard for some healers in current content, but because this is the consensus there is less and less tolerance of non dpsing healers

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Yes you are right Lyrica, thanks for your response Maybe someone, somewhere will care if people enjoy the game experience or not, in the way it was designed to be enjoyed. That it was intended for people to have different roles to choose to play. I am sure. You see the posts here that completey insist that you do not really have a choice on whether you dps or not. Your only choice on how to play the game is dps, dps or leave. Well yes ive asked if this is fair and not wanting to head butt I will try not to do that just hope that some people would notice. That it is actually possible to enjoy the game if some do just heal. Hoping that SE will give healers their choice back

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This is a case of illusion of choice or Hobson's Fork to be more precise. Hobson's fork was a form of illusion of choice that you either take what was offered or get nothing at all (in it's simplest form). The kind of situation you're experiencing is very similar: You either participate as how majority wants to or you don't participate at all.

While Hobson's Fork is actually a thing, I'd like to re-iterate: There's a good number of players out there that simply don't mind and respect you for it if you're not comfortable doing so. Simply tell them beforehand just so they know what's up. You can't get disappointed for something you can't expect, after all.

The whole Hobson's Fork situation in the community is also very biased. In particular towards Scholars. Scholars have, since the meta have settled in 2.X, been considered the healer with the most reliable and sustainable damage potential while also healing. And rightfully so if you consider the kit Scholars have as a whole, rather than a part of it to either maim or to mend. But that's for another discussion. As you have set Scholar as your main job on your forum profile, this may be the reason why you're experiencing this issue more often than not. If dialog isn't an option, perhaps another healing job may interest you. I don't like recommending others to change jobs, however. I highly suggest you to go for a dialog first or find some good comrades to do content with.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Leveling dungeons are different since people are still learning their job, but in level 60 dungeons it's faster to replace a healer who only heals with a 3rd dps. I don't know why this is a hard concept to grasp but this is a group based game. You can play poorly if you want, but be ready for the consequences if you're in a group that doesn't want to play poorly.

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I agree healers should DPS, but I also think in duty finder people should be-able to play how they want. I've had my share of mistakes learning how to switch stances even caused some wipes. Every time I try to improve and not let it happen again. I would never yell at a tank for just holding agro because that's there primary job. I don't care if a dungeon takes longer or not. What's an extra 10 minutes. Should a healer DPS. Yes they should. Should they be required definently not. Some people do just play the game for fun, and just want to heal. What is wrong with that.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

This is a case of illusion of choice or Hobson's Fork to be more precise. Hobson's fork was a form of illusion of choice that you either take what was offered or get nothing at all (in it's simplest form). The kind of situation you're experiencing is very similar: You either participate as how majority wants to or you don't participate at all.

The whole Hobson's Fork situation in the community is also very biased. In particular towards Scholars. I highly suggest you to go for a dialog first or find some good comrades to do content with.

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Yes got all three healers, still prefer scholar healing. I may be biased but find it the best actual healer. I am in a group and play Ast atm. My group are good people. Its all ok there just want to do other stuff with my scholar too. Mostly be a healer with it and enjoy it 'smiles'

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Leveling dungeons are different since people are still learning their job, but in level 60 dungeons it's faster to replace a healer who only heals with a 3rd dps. I don't know why this is a hard concept to grasp but this is a group based game. You can play poorly if you want, but be ready for the consequences if you're in a group that doesn't want to play poorly.

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Also worth considering that "poorly" is completely subjective. They're actually playing quite well, as long as they're keeping everyone healed. As long as nobody is dying, you can't really argue that they're playing poorly. You can argue that they're not as efficient as you want, or that they're not playing optimally. But that doesn't really translate to "You're a poor healer."

look i love dpsing healers, but this is what i care about:
If youre a DPS and not DPSing(mch not using any tp the entire run) then that deservers a kick
Tank not tanking anything, that deserves a kick
Healer not healing, that deserves a kick.

otherwise, i am fine with whatever long as im not having a heart attack scare every 20 seconds,

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

look i love dpsing healers, but this is what i care about:
If youre a DPS and not DPSing(mch not using any tp the entire run) then that deservers a kick
Tank not tanking anything, that deserves a kick
Healer not healing, that deserves a kick.

otherwise, i am fine with whatever long as im not having a heart attack scare every 20 seconds,

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Yes and I dont want to develop high blood pressure caused by the stress of seeing someone dying cos Ive just gone in cleric and have to wait 5 secs to get out of it. :)

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

I kinda miss things in the early dungeons they put in where you can't cheese mechanics with DPS lol (the slimes in copperbell mines comes to mind. It's boring as hell now because we've all done it a million times, but the first 2 or 3 times was interesting).

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You can always run Copperbell Hard. Spriggan boss is pretty much the same mechanic on steroids. From players blowing themselves up trying to place bombs, unavoidable AoE, and a non-telegraphed column attack that hits like a mofo; I've yet to cast one offensive spell during that fight :D

I can't speak for everyone, but hope I can speak for those who just don't care. So long as the healer is keeping the group up, including the off-healer should I fall; it's all the matters. What I do care about is getting a clear, and this doesn't happen if the healer doesn't heal. I am ok with either playstyle so long as that requirement is met.

Asking if it should be ok for a healer, or any player really to play how they want is a pretty loaded question. If a DPS minded player chooses to play a tank just so he can get faster queues and eff sh*t up with a big'ol sword, he can DPS stance all the way because that is the 'tank's' choice of how to play. Everyone in their right mind knows these kind of players are truly horrible at what they do.

The problem I have with this whole debate, and why I defend the heals-only healers so passionately, is because they are made to feel just like the player I just mentioned who is deliberately playing poorly, and it directly affects to outcome of the instance. I will always agree that a heals-only healer is playing less than optimal, but to treat them like someone making the instance harder than it has to be is unacceptable.

The minds of these players gravitate towards if a healer doesn't DPS during their downtime, they are adding time to the run. I've seen it mentioned many times on these forums and reddit. I know it is context, and most should know that you can't actually add time to a run. However, the appreciable understand that a healer who does DPS, subtracts time from the instance, if capable of doing so and also keeping everyone alive.